Newton Believed a Comet Caused Noah's Flood

[Onoma]

oh, OK, let's take a closer look at the terms you brought up, sir, because any student of Mesopotamian literature would know these terms are never used to describe an actual flood ( Produce an example of their use in a text that does so, if you want to stand behind your words )

 

Lets start with some expressions of speech

A-MA-RU 

As a term of urgency:

General exhortation for prompt response to the letter:

'"It is urgent" (literary "it is a flood") /amaru-ak-am/:'

Text ID Exhortation

TCS 1, 280 = YBC 11130 = Letters 218[a]-ma-ru-kam / [na]-mi-gur-re

UET 3, 0003 = TCS 1 100a-ma-ru-a-ka / nam-˹mi˺-gur-re / a-˹ba*˺ [šeš]-˹mu*˺-gim

BiOr 26 175 HSM 1800a-ma-ru-kam

TCS 1, 133 = HTS 115a-ma-ru-kam

Ontario 2, 493a-ma-ru-kam / na-mi-gur-re

TCS 1, 199 = NBC 06458 = Letters 200a-ma-ru-kam / na-mi-gur-re

SAT 3, 2172 = YBC 1445a-ma-ru-kam / u4-da sa2 he2-e (OR: di he2-e)

UET 3, 7 = TCS 1, 95a-ma-ru-kam / ˹ul4˺-la-bi

TCS 1, 168a-ma-ru-um

BiOr 26, 175 HSM 1800 = Letters 239a-mu-ru-kam / ul4-la-bi

TSU 010 = TCS 1, 244[ul4]-˹la˺-bi / ˹na˺-mi-[gur-re] / [a]-ma-ru-[kam]

MVN 3, 351na-mi-gur-re / a-[ba šeš]-˹mu˺-gim / a-ma-ru-kam

MVN 06, 429 = ITT 4, 7450 = TCS 1 143 Letters 158na-mi-gur-re / a-ma-ru-kam / a-ba šeš-mu-ke4

UET 3, 3 = TCS 1 100a-ma-ru-a-ka / nam-˹mi˺-gur-re / a-˹ba*˺ [šeš]-˹mu*˺-gim

TCS 1, 150 = M.A.R.I 5 627 = Letters 078e-ma-ru-kam / lugal-mu? inim-bi / ha-mu-tar2-re

TCS 1, 312 = Letters 081a-ma-ru-kam / a2-ag2-˹ga2˺ lugal-[kam] / na-mi-gur#-[re]

TCS 1, 130 = HTS 106 = Letters 082a-ma-ru-kam / inim e2-gal-kam / inim-gar-bi nu-mu-tumu3

YOS 4, 137 = TCS 1 283a-ma-ru-kam / inim ugula-kam

NATN 770na-mi-gur-re / a-˹ma-x˺ […]

ITT 5, 6975 = TCS 1, 087 = Letters 234na-mi-gur-re / a-ma-ru-kam

TCS 1, 44 = Ni 0195na-mi-gur-re / a-ma-ru-kam

TCS 1, 124 = NATN 807= Letters 175na-mi-gur-re / a-ma-ru-kam

TCS 1, 198 = NBC 06638 = Letters 199na-mi-gur-re / a-ma-ru-kam

NATN 506na-mi-gur-re / a-ma-ru-kam

YOS 04, 120 = TCS 1, 096gu2-na-kam / a-ma-ru-kam

TCS 1, 290 = UIOM 464 = Letters 148a-ma-ru-kam / na-mu-nigin (=NIGIN2.NIGIN2)

TCS 1, 32 = Letters 133a-ma-ru-kam / ul4-la-bi / he2-ma-gub

 

Which one of these texts would you like to claim talks about a literal flood, and which of the 13 attested forms of " amaru " would you like to discuss first ?

 

[Onoma]

Maybe try " bubbulu " in the code of Hammurabi ?

Or how about " kurku " in " Lugalbanda in the mountain cave " ?

Or...what about " ĝešamaru " in " The building of Ninĝirsu's temple " ?

 

Just a few suggestions

Who knows, you might get lucky !!

 

 

[Onoma]

Here, maybe a light discussion of the name of Nippur would help your understanding ?

 

Just trying to be helpful, and besides, you did mention " abubu "

 

 

 

 

[Onoma]

Or maybe we should just go to the classics and get to the astronomy terms ?

How about an example of the High Priest, as the flood / deluge, personified ?

That might help, right ?

Mesopotamian literature can be very confusing if you don't understand wordplay

( My apologies the pic is broken into two parts, but I think the red lines should still help explain what you are looking at )

 

[docyabut2]

Quote

Get over it guys it was a moral story passed on by many cultures using their characters:)

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

Edited June 1, 2017 by docyabut2

[Onoma]

Or perhaps the Enūma Anu Enlil ?

A well-known text of Babylonian astrology, mainly recording omens, - eclipses

In this case, an example of the idiomatic speech of classic Mesopotamian " flood terminology " found in omen texts

The finger is a fundamental unit of Mesopotamian metrology used for measuring eclipse magnitudes

 

 

It's also the cognate to the Hebrew " qeren " ( Horn ) in the Akkadian " qarnu "

 

That's also the source of the Quran's " moon split in half " ( Just classic Mesopotamian literature, no miracles, lol )

 

And the " she " ( si ) is the fundamental basis of the modern Jewish calendar, ie " the barleycorn "

 

Want to discuss the flood " in the Sumerian mes, as a duty of a ruler  ?

Or the " flood " in " Gilgamesh epic " ?

I prefer Sin-leqi-unninni;s 1st person treatment of the text, it's rather revealing in his role as an atonement priest ( Like Jesus )

 

Or did you want to discuss sexigesimal mathematics or bi-sexigesimal math used for astronomy ?

 

or....maybe metrological conventions and scripts used in classic omen texts ?

 

I'm all ears, sir

Edited June 1, 2017 by Onoma
attacked by mimes

[Onoma]

Let's look at some uses of " abubu ", the other term you Googled in an attempt to bluff your way through the conversation

 

:|

 

The temple hymns (c.4.80.1), line c4801.488

Paragraph t4801.p93 (line(s) 479-488) Click line no. for paragraph-aligned layout of transliteration and translation.

O Zimbir, dais upon which Utu sits daily, E-nun-ana (House of the prince of heaven), star of heaven, crown given birth by Ningal, house of Utu, your prince, the …… of the universe, fills heaven and earth. When the lord sleeps, the people sleep; when he rises, the people rise. The bull …… and the people prostrate themselves. Before Utu the herds pasture ……. The black-headed have bathed before him, the Land has …… before him. He measures out the divine powers -- your shrine is a flood.

 

No literal flood there, how about another one;

A hymn to Asarluḫi (Asarluḫi A) (c.4.01.1), line c4011.21

Paragraph t4011.p3 (line(s) 20-28)

Son endowed with a broad understanding, whose movement is that of an animal with large horns in the split reeds; Asarluḫi, mighty deluge determining great fates, unleashed and knowing no course whatsoever! When great An shared out the divine powers for heaven and earth, incantations fell to your lot. Scanning all mankind with a glance, god of benign features, with an attractive physique; most skilled metalworker, creating masterpieces; counsellor and judge, whose word in the august sanctuary is unalterable and whose character is sublime: I shall exalt him in song and glorify his name.

No literal flood there either just another example of creative speech describing a god as a flood. Asarluḫi was a god of the River Ordeal, originally in Sumeria

How about we look at another one ?

A tigi to Nergal (Nergal C) (c.4.15.3), line c4153.A.27

Paragraph t4153.p3 (line(s) 21-30) 

Lord who imposes silence, son of Enlil, who in his heroism like a flood demands respect (?)! May the people of Lagaš spread on your pure table everything you need. Nergal, may you stretch forth your arm over the place Lagaš. Nergal, lord who imposes silence, son of Enlil, who in his heroism like a flood demands respect (?)! May the people of Lagaš spread on your pure table everything you need. Nergal, may you stretch forth your arm over the place Lagaš.

 

Nope, nothing there either, but there's no reason to post endless boring literature ( unless you like that kind of stuff )

 

I think I have demonstrated some of the scant knowledge I have on the topic

 

Did you have any other " flood terms " you'd like to bring up ?

I'm going to do a post on bubbulu in the meantime, so we can look at some of the earlier origins of the ancient Jewish traditions based around " the flood "

 

Also, not to belittle Newton, ( he was impressive in his time ) but you'll find that when we really get into the topic, my knowledge will exceed his by 100 fold, merely because of my access to the wealth of modern information available for free, plus I have some mathematical knowledge that was not known in his time, knowledge that is critical to solving the things he was trying to figure out, plus It's all I study, 24-7, as I am nice and retired

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Onoma]

So, I wanted to address some things, because I know the literature is not easy to wade through

 

The first is the seemingly odd association of water with the sky ( or odd if you are not familiar with the speech )

The reason that the night sky, the darkness that covered the moon in the form of both- eclipses and the phases of the moon, are are associated with water / a flood, is because they considered the dark night sky to be the " seas "

As the moon went through it's phases, it was slowly said to be being covered by the flood / floodwaters until it was completely inundated ( new moon  ), but at the same time, the term " bubbulu " also came to be associated with eclipses, roughly neo-Babylonian era, iirc ( have to check my notes there ), and you'll definitely find in it the glossary of terms used in the laws of Hammurabi, as " flood / floodwaters / deluge "

" bubbulu " is found as an Akkadian term that refers to new moon, what the Jews call " rosh chodesh "

It's not, however, by far, the only name of the moon found in texts, and that's just due to the nature of the literature ( tons of nicknames, wordplays, puns, math, all sorts of interesting things )

Another name, for example, would be " gurun " , a word meaning " fruit ", which is a sobriquet ( nickname ) of sin ( the moon god ), when in new moon (cf the dingir determinant attached to " gurun ", deifying the god and priest acting on his behalf ), but as a word meaning " tree " )

To add to the confusion, it was common for later Babylonian procedural texts for magic rituals to be Sumerian written in Akkadian ( or even mixing the scripts and symbols ), while using " Babylonian " for other most other purposes ( finance, etc )

So, in Sumerian, " bubbulu " is " udnua "

" ud " means " day ", and " nua " means " goat  or nanny goat " ( male or female )

You might be thinking...wait....what does a goat have to do with the moon and the flood..and the....what ?

I'm sure you guys know that in the old times, sacrifices were called for during omen like new moon and or eclipses ( and a host of other events as well )

Let's break it down

 

 

Now why does Hammurabi's laws quote the word but call it " the floodwaters " ?

 

Simple

 

 

You'll find that the later traditions described in the Bible

In ancient Jewish tradition, a goat was to be sacrificed to the Lord as a sin offering, Leviticus 15:15 for new moon ( The flood )

" And the priest shall offer them, the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him before the LORD for his issue "

The " sin offering " was the original " devil sacrifice " which Jesus replaced ( the sa'yr - devil , cf Strong's concordance ), properly known as the " scapegoat ritual " where a goat ( sa'iyr - devil ) was blamed for the sins of the world and kicked out of town ( Instead of being killed ) ( also see rabbinical traditions of the red ribbon on the horn of the goat )
 

The New Moon festival marked the consecration to God of each new month in the year and New Moon festivals were always marked by sacrifices

Another tradition was the blowing of trumpets over the new moon sacrifices (Numbers 10:10), and later, new moon was also said to have been announced by blowing trumpets and lighting fires on mountain tops , but don't know the truth of the fires, but definitely trumpets ( horns )

 

That's why the same " horn " that's used used to measure " the flood " ( in degrees ) is the word in the phrase " blow the horn " 

The languages are tricky tricky...:)

Also see I included the Hebrew cognate to the Akkadian, but it's rather simplistic and deserves a few posts, to be honest

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Doug1029]

I started work on the Tornetrask Chronology.  It's going to be worse than I thought:  it's just a dataset containing the width of individual tree rings (Scotch Pine).  I haven't found any trees that date from the correct time, but they should be in there somewhere.  This is not a chronology at all, so to make a chronology, I will have to copy the data into Tucson format and run it on COFECHA.  That will take a lot of time.  In the meantime, I might get some hints if I find some trees of the right age.

Doug

[Essan]

Scots Pine


btw came across this which may or may not be useful.   

ancient palaeotsunami mapped all the way back to the prehistoric era

the data shows that there were a number of small tsnuamis (most likely earthquake induced)  that hit NZ around the timeframe we are discussing, but no evidence (yet found) for anything out of the ordinary.   But its an example of what I keep saying: if massive tsunamis hit around the Indian Ocean 5,000 years ago, there ought be clear evidence from many, many locations - other than chevrons.

[Onoma]

We could always talk about the fact that the Bible makes direct reference to this " flood " in reference to New Moon sacrifices

 

Gabriel's Prophecy of the Seventy Weeks

"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate,even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed,is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

 

 

Where did my new friend go ?

 

I thought we were debating flood terminologies 

[Jor-el]

On ‎01‎-‎06‎-‎2017 at 0:16 AM, Onoma said:

oh, OK, let's take a closer look at the terms you brought up, sir, because any student of Mesopotamian literature would know these terms are never used to describe an actual flood ( Produce an example of their use in a text that does so, if you want to stand behind your words )

 

Lets start with some expressions of speech

A-MA-RU 

As a term of urgency:

General exhortation for prompt response to the letter:

'"It is urgent" (literary "it is a flood") /amaru-ak-am/:'

Text ID Exhortation

TCS 1, 280 = YBC 11130 = Letters 218[a]-ma-ru-kam / [na]-mi-gur-re

UET 3, 0003 = TCS 1 100a-ma-ru-a-ka / nam-˹mi˺-gur-re / a-˹ba*˺ [šeš]-˹mu*˺-gim

BiOr 26 175 HSM 1800a-ma-ru-kam

TCS 1, 133 = HTS 115a-ma-ru-kam

Ontario 2, 493a-ma-ru-kam / na-mi-gur-re

TCS 1, 199 = NBC 06458 = Letters 200a-ma-ru-kam / na-mi-gur-re

SAT 3, 2172 = YBC 1445a-ma-ru-kam / u4-da sa2 he2-e (OR: di he2-e)

UET 3, 7 = TCS 1, 95a-ma-ru-kam / ˹ul4˺-la-bi

TCS 1, 168a-ma-ru-um

BiOr 26, 175 HSM 1800 = Letters 239a-mu-ru-kam / ul4-la-bi

TSU 010 = TCS 1, 244[ul4]-˹la˺-bi / ˹na˺-mi-[gur-re] / [a]-ma-ru-[kam]

MVN 3, 351na-mi-gur-re / a-[ba šeš]-˹mu˺-gim / a-ma-ru-kam

MVN 06, 429 = ITT 4, 7450 = TCS 1 143 Letters 158na-mi-gur-re / a-ma-ru-kam / a-ba šeš-mu-ke4

UET 3, 3 = TCS 1 100a-ma-ru-a-ka / nam-˹mi˺-gur-re / a-˹ba*˺ [šeš]-˹mu*˺-gim

TCS 1, 150 = M.A.R.I 5 627 = Letters 078e-ma-ru-kam / lugal-mu? inim-bi / ha-mu-tar2-re

TCS 1, 312 = Letters 081a-ma-ru-kam / a2-ag2-˹ga2˺ lugal-[kam] / na-mi-gur#-[re]

TCS 1, 130 = HTS 106 = Letters 082a-ma-ru-kam / inim e2-gal-kam / inim-gar-bi nu-mu-tumu3

YOS 4, 137 = TCS 1 283a-ma-ru-kam / inim ugula-kam

NATN 770na-mi-gur-re / a-˹ma-x˺ […]

ITT 5, 6975 = TCS 1, 087 = Letters 234na-mi-gur-re / a-ma-ru-kam

TCS 1, 44 = Ni 0195na-mi-gur-re / a-ma-ru-kam

TCS 1, 124 = NATN 807= Letters 175na-mi-gur-re / a-ma-ru-kam

TCS 1, 198 = NBC 06638 = Letters 199na-mi-gur-re / a-ma-ru-kam

NATN 506na-mi-gur-re / a-ma-ru-kam

YOS 04, 120 = TCS 1, 096gu2-na-kam / a-ma-ru-kam

TCS 1, 290 = UIOM 464 = Letters 148a-ma-ru-kam / na-mu-nigin (=NIGIN2.NIGIN2)

TCS 1, 32 = Letters 133a-ma-ru-kam / ul4-la-bi / he2-ma-gub

 

Which one of these texts would you like to claim talks about a literal flood, and which of the 13 attested forms of " amaru " would you like to discuss first ?

 

An interesting collection of posts, I found myself riveted to the screen trying to decipher them. Interestingly enough not one supporting link that allows one to actually verify anything you posted. You were the creator of the images you posted? What was your actual source, so that someone can verify what is there?

It is also interesting that there is not a single bit of literature regarding this issue, at least anywhere that I could find over the last day, which is the reason I didn't post, I was trying to verify your claims.... I had no success. It may mean that I simply overlooked some source or that the source is proprietary and cannot be seen by the general public. The other possibility is that you made it up... but I have to doubt that, because you can quickly catch a lie in its tracks. So it behooves you now to make available verifiable sources that we can use to replicate your work.

Your work also puts in doubt most if not all the scholars in Sumerian linguistics I've studied, people that have worldwide reputations and are respected in this field. People Like Samuel Noah Kramer and Jeremy Allen Black. Again I state that it may merely be a lapse of mine in not being able to find any reference to this.

But let's talk of something that you mentioned.

Which one of these texts would you like to claim talks about a literal flood, and which of the 13 attested forms of " amaru " would you like to discuss first?

Well here is the list that you asked for....  Each and every instance is attested in Sumerian literature and is not metaphorical or figurative in nature. Links will be supplied.

1.  The Sumerian king list

(in the following translation, mss. are referred to by the sigla used by Vincente 1995; from those listed there, mss. Fi, Go, P6, and WB 62 were not used; if not specified by a note, numerical data come from ms. WB)

38.	mu-<bi> 241200 ib2-ak
39.	a-ma-ru ba-ur3-«ra-ta»
40.	ejer a-ma-ru ba-ur3-ra-ta

1-39. After the kingship descended from heaven, the kingship was in Eridug. In Eridug, Alulim became king; he ruled for 28800 years. Alalĝar ruled for 36000 years. 2 kings; they ruled for 64800 years. Then Eridug fell and the kingship was taken to Bad-tibira. In Bad-tibira, En-men-lu-ana ruled for 43200 years. En-men-gal-ana ruled for 28800 years. Dumuzid, the shepherd, ruled for 36000 years. 3 kings; they ruled for 108000 years. Then Bad-tibira fell (?) and the kingship was taken to Larag. In Larag, En-sipad-zid-ana ruled for 28800 years. 1 king; he ruled for 28800 years. Then Larag fell (?) and the kingship was taken to Zimbir. In Zimbir, En-men-dur-ana became king; he ruled for 21000 years. 1 king; he ruled for 21000 years. Then Zimbir fell (?) and the kingship was taken to Šuruppag. In Šuruppag, Ubara-Tutu became king; he ruled for 18600 years. 1 king; he ruled for 18600 years. In 5 cities 8 kings; they ruled for 241200 years. Then the flood swept over.

40-94. After the flood had swept over, and the kingship had descended from heaven, the kingship was in Kiš.

2. The Flood story

	Segment C
1.	ki-tuc an-na X [...]
2.	e-[...]
3.	a-ma-ru [...]
4.	nam-lu2-[ulu3...]
5.	/ur5-gin7\ bi2-in-ak [...]
6.	ud-bi-a dnin-/tur5\ [...] DIM2A [...]
7.	kug dinana-ke4 uj3-bi-ce3a-nir mu-[un-ja2-ja2]
8.	den-ki cag4ni2-te-na-ke4ad i-ni-/in\-[gi4-gi4]
9.	an den-lil2 den-ki dnin-hur-saj-ja2-[ke4]
10.	dijir an ki-ke4mu an den-lil2 mu-X-[pad3]
11.	ud-ba zi-ud-su3-ra2 lugal-am3gudug X [...]
12.	an saj NIJIN mu-un-dim2-dim2EN [...]
13.	nam-sun5-na inim sig10-sig10-ge ni2tej3-je26 [...]
14.	ud cu2-uc-e saj us2gub-ba [...]
15.	ma-mu2nu-me-a ed2-de3inim /bal\ [...]
16.	mu an ki-bi-ta pad3-pad3-de3 [...]
17.	/ki?\-ur3-ce3 dijir-re-e-ne e2-jar8 [...]
18.	zi-ud-su3-ra2 da-bi gub-ba jic mu-[un-tuku]
19.	iz-zi-da a2gab2-bu-ju10gub-ba [...]
20.	iz-zi-da inim ga-ra-ab-dug4inim-[ju10he2-dab5]
21.	na de5-ga-ju10jizzal [he2-em-ci-ak]
22.	DAG-me-a a-ma-ru ugu kab /dug4\-[ga ...] ba-/ur3\ [...]
23.	numun nam-lu2-ulu3ha-lam-e-/de3\ [nam-bi ba-tar]
24.	di-til-la inim pu-uh2-ru-[um-ma-ka cu gi4-gi4nu-jal2]
25.	inim dug4-ga an den-[lil2-la2-ka] [cu bal-e nu-zu]
26.	nam-lugal-bi bal-bi /ba\-[bur12e-ne cag4kuc2-u3-de3]
27.	/e\-ne-ec2 [...]
28.	/a\-na MU-/MU\ [...]
	approx. 38 lines missing
	Segment D
1.	im-hul-im-hul tum9si-si-ig du3-a-bi tec2-bi i3-sug2-ge-ec
2.	a-ma-ru ugu kab dug4-ga ba-an-da-ab-ur3-e
3.	ud 7-am3ji67-am3
4.	a-ma-ru kalam-ma ba-ur3-ra-ta
5.	jicma2gur4-gur4a gal-la im-hul tuku4-tuku4-a-ta
6.	dutu i-im-ma-ra-e3an ki-a ud ja2-ja2
7.	zi-ud-su3-ra2 jicma2gur4-gur4ab-BUR2mu-un-da-buru3
8.	cul dutu jic-nu11-ni-da jicma2gur4-gur4-ce3ba-an-kur9-re-en
9.	zi-ud-su3-ra2 lugal-am3
10.	igi dutu-ce3 giri17ki su-ub ba-gub
11.	lugal-e gud im-ma-ab-gaz-e udu im-ma-ab-car2-re
12.	[...] X si gal [...] sikil-la-da
13.	[...] X mu-un-na-X-X-ba
14.	[...]
15.	[...] bi2-in-si
16.	[...] X tab-ba
17.	[...] A X

Segment C

1-27. ……seat in heaven. …… flood. …… mankind. So he made ……. Then Nintur ……. Holy Inana made a lament for its people. Enki took counsel with himself. An, Enlil, Enki and Ninḫursaĝa made all the gods of heaven and earth take an oath by invoking An and Enlil. In those days Zi-ud-sura the king, the gudug priest, ……. He fashioned ……. The humble, committed, reverent ……. Day by day, standing constantly at ……. Something that was not a dream appeared, conversation ……, …… taking an oath by invoking heaven and earth. In the Ki-ur, the gods …… a wall. Zi-ud-sura, standing at its side, heard: "Side-wall standing at my left side, ……. Side-wall, I will speak words to you; take heed of my words, pay attention to my instructions. A flood will sweep over the …… in all the ……. A decision that the seed of mankind is to be destroyed has been made. The verdict, the word of the divine assembly, cannot be revoked. The order announced by An and Enlil cannot be overturned. Their kingship, their term has been cut off; their heart should be rested about this. Now ……. What ……."
approx. 38 lines missing

Segment D

1-11. All the windstorms and gales arose together, and the flood swept over the ……. After the flood had swept over the land, and waves and windstorms had rocked the huge boat for seven days and seven nights, Utu the sun god came out, illuminating heaven and earth. Zi-ud-sura could drill an opening in the huge boat and the hero Utu entered the huge boat with his rays. Zi-ud-sura the king prostrated himself before Utu. The king sacrificed oxen and offered innumerable sheep.

So what about Akkadian, do we have anything in that language which demonstrates this literal Flood?

3. Let's try the Epic of Gilgamesh:

11 šurippak ālu ša tīdûšu atta 12 ā[lu ša ina kišā]d puratti šaknu 13 [āl]u šū labirma ilāni qerbuššu 14 [an]a šakān abūbi ubla libbašunu ilāni rabûti

11 "The city of Shuruppak — a city you yourself know, 12 the [city that] is situated on the [banks] of the Euphrates — 13 that city was old and the gods were inside it, 14 (when) the great gods decided to cause the Deluge.

114 ilū iptalhū abūbamma 115 ittehsû ītelû ana šamê ša anim 116 ša kīma kalbī kunnunū ina kamâti rabṣū	114 "Even the gods took fright at the Deluge! 115 They withdrew, they went up to the heaven of Anu. 116 The ones who were curled up like dogs, lying out in the open.
117 išassi ištar kīma ālitti 118 unambi bēlet-ilī ṭābat rigma	117 "The goddess, screaming like a woman in childbirth, 118 Bēlet-ilī, the sweet-voiced, wailed aloud:
119 ūmu ullû ana ṭiṭṭi lū itūrma 120 aššu anāku ina puhur i[lāni] aqbû lemutta 121 kī aqbi ina puhur i[lāni] lemutta 122 ana hulluq nišīya qabla aqbīma 123 anākumma ulladā nišū’ama 124 kī mārī nūnī umallâ tâmtamma	119 "'Indeed the past has truly turned to clay, 120 because I spoke evil in the assembly of the gods. 121 How was it I spoke evil in the assembly of the gods, 122 (and) declared a war to destroy my people? 123 It is I that gave birth (to them)! They are my people! 124 (Now) like so many fish they fill the sea.'
125 ilū šūt anunnakī bakû ittīša 126 ilū ašrū ašbi ina bikīti 127 šabbā šaptāšunu leqâ buhrēti	125 "The gods, the Anunnaki, were weeping with her, 126 the gods were humble, sitting in tears, 127 their lips were parched, being stricken with fever.
128 šešše urrī u sebe mušâti 129 illak šāru abūbu mehû [isappan māta] 130 sebû ūmu ina kašādi 131 ittaraq mehû [abūbu qabla] 132 ša imtahṣu kīma hayyālti inūh tâmtu 133 ušharrir imhullu abūba ikla	128 "For six days and seven nights, 129 there blew the wind and the Deluge, the gale [and flattened the land]. 130 When the seventh day arrived, 131 the gale relented, [the Deluge and the battle]. 132 The sea grew calm that had fought like a woman in labour, 133 the tempest grew still, the Deluge ended.

I could go on, but I think I proved my point here. Interesting to note how the description of the events clearly describe a comet striking the ocean.... even the effects are described in some detail in the complete tablet. (link provided)

Edited June 3, 2017 by Jor-el

[Jor-el]

On ‎01‎-‎06‎-‎2017 at 1:22 AM, Onoma said:

Or maybe we should just go to the classics and get to the astronomy terms ?

How about an example of the High Priest, as the flood / deluge, personified ?

That might help, right ?

Mesopotamian literature can be very confusing if you don't understand wordplay

( My apologies the pic is broken into two parts, but I think the red lines should still help explain what you are looking at )

 

It is also interesting that the only verifiable information is in regard to Daniel Schwemer. His analysis is mainly in regards to magic and incantations as far as I can see, not an actual study of the languages themselves. (Sumerian & Akkadian). Anyone familiar with these types of works knows that there is a lot of extrapolation and meanings that are literal are then metaophorized to the extreme becoming symbols for the rituals themselves. Something identical happens in the study of Kabbalah for example. They actually have little to do with the original works they extrapolate on.

[Jor-el]

6 hours ago, Essan said:

Scots Pine


btw came across this which may or may not be useful.   

ancient palaeotsunami mapped all the way back to the prehistoric era

the data shows that there were a number of small tsnuamis (most likely earthquake induced)  that hit NZ around the timeframe we are discussing, but no evidence (yet found) for anything out of the ordinary.   But its an example of what I keep saying: if massive tsunamis hit around the Indian Ocean 5,000 years ago, there ought be clear evidence from many, many locations - other than chevrons.

There was strong evidence New Zealand's largest tsunami occurred between 1450 and 1480 at Henderson Bay in Northland, where deposits reached 32 meters above sea level and inundated inland for 1000m.

This is not even close to the time frame being discussed. It is also when the comet Mahuika is reported to have impacted near the Island. And there is indeed something out of the ordinary...

On Stewart Island, New Zealand beach sand is present around 200 meters above sea level at Hellfire hut and around 150 meters above sea level at Mason Bay. In Eastern Australia there are mega tsunami deposits with maximum run-ups of over 130 metres and a C¹⁴ age of about 1500 AD. Mega tsunami deposits occur on the eastern side of Lord Howe Island in the middle of Tasman Sea, implying a source crater for the tsunami further east.

TSUNAMI The Underrated Hazard Edward Bryant Third Edition: The Mahuika Comet Event and Eastern Australia pg.183

 

Edited June 3, 2017 by Jor-el

[Onoma]

I guess I would start by pointing out you apparently don't know how to navigate the databases, nor do you grasp how the terminologies are used

 

Also, why are you ignoring that I showed where the flood " uru " ( abubu ) is used as the word that refers to the seat ( throne ) ?

You're really only ignoring the fact that the High Priest was the personified flood

If you don't know what it means to " personify " something, well, .......read a book

Start here

And also, maybe just be honest with yourself about what you do and don't know, instead of frantically googling your answers in an attempt to win an internet argument

[Onoma]

 

Also, here are ALL the verses in the Bible mentioning " wormwood ", and not just the ones fruitloops like to cherry-pick to support their flake claim that it refers to a comet ( while they turn around and claim it's the planet " niburu " )

 

Which is it ?

 

Comet or planet ?

 

Lol

 

Deu 29:18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;

Pro 5:4But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.

Jer 9:15Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will feed them, even this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink.

Jer 23:15Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.

Lam 3:15He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood.

Lam 3:19Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall.

Amo 5:7Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off righteousness in the earth,

.

7 uses in the Tanakh

לענה la`anah {lah-an-aw'} from an unused root supposed to mean to curse; TWOT - 1121; n f AV - wormwood 7, hemlock 1; 8 1) wormwood 1a) bitterness (metaph.)

Says NOTHING about a comet, friendo

Says everything about the waters " 

1 use in the New Testament and it specifically references the metaphorical meaning of the Hebrew wormwood ( bitterness )

HELLO

Rev 8:11And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter

Αψινθος apsinthos {ap'-sin-thos} of uncertain derivation;; n f AV - wormwood 2; 2 1) wormwood 2) the name of a star which fell into the waters and made them bitter

 

Attempting to claim this one single verse supports the claim that the entire world was flooded by a comet, is not only completely ludicrous, the logic holds water like a pair of pantyhose

One single verse .....for an event that flooded the entire planet ?

LOL

Please

Also, not grasping the use of " the waters " as a term of astronomy only shows you don't actually read or study the literature

Not understanding the phrasing " the seas " refers to the multitudes ( of people ) , in the scriptures, just shows you haven't bothered to study those either

Unless you have a new interpretation for the Talmudic claims of Leviathan making the seas boil ( I'm all ears  

Let me know when you've studied the scriptures, for real, and when you copy paste the material I post to find it on Google in an attempt to bluff everybody into believing you actually knew where the material was online, it would really be better if you just ask

I would gladly tell you the names of the websites if you didn't pretend to know them already

 

 

[Jor-el]

13 hours ago, Onoma said:

I guess I would start by pointing out you apparently don't know how to navigate the databases, nor do you grasp how the terminologies are used

 

Also, why are you ignoring that I showed where the flood " uru " ( abubu ) is used as the word that refers to the seat ( throne ) ?

You're really only ignoring the fact that the High Priest was the personified flood

If you don't know what it means to " personify " something, well, .......read a book

Start here

And also, maybe just be honest with yourself about what you do and don't know, instead of frantically googling your answers in an attempt to win an internet argument

Actually it is you responsibility to present the evidence of what you are saying. It isn't mine in the least. You are the one attempting to put forward the idea that the terms AMARU and ABŪBU are not literal and mean something else entirely.

I demonstrated this is not the case. Sorry to burst your bubble there.

That the same terms can be personified and be used metaphorically is not the issue. All terms can be used that way in any language.

Poetry uses the same terms metaphorically. I just don't assume that is what they literally mean in those specific circumstances.

Providing images doesn't cut it. Provide the links to the information.

I can manipulate any image I want. You mages don't constitute evidence. Links to your sources will.

You assume that I am having an internet argument with you. I am not. I simply do not swallow anything thrown at me without verifiable evidence. You have not provided any.

I on the other hand have done so. Follow the example of the posts I made.

[Jor-el]

13 hours ago, Onoma said:

 

Also, here are ALL the verses in the Bible mentioning " wormwood ", and not just the ones fruitloops like to cherry-pick to support their flake claim that it refers to a comet ( while they turn around and claim it's the planet " niburu " )

 

Which is it ?

 

Comet or planet ?

 

Lol

 

Deu 29:18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;

Pro 5:4But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.

Jer 9:15Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will feed them, even this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink.

Jer 23:15Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.

Lam 3:15He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood.

Lam 3:19Remembering mine affliction and my misery, the wormwood and the gall.

Amo 5:7Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off righteousness in the earth,

.

7 uses in the Tanakh

לענה la`anah {lah-an-aw'} from an unused root supposed to mean to curse; TWOT - 1121; n f AV - wormwood 7, hemlock 1; 8 1) wormwood 1a) bitterness (metaph.)

Says NOTHING about a comet, friendo

Says everything about the waters " 

1 use in the New Testament and it specifically references the metaphorical meaning of the Hebrew wormwood ( bitterness )

HELLO

Rev 8:11And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter

Αψινθος apsinthos {ap'-sin-thos} of uncertain derivation;; n f AV - wormwood 2; 2 1) wormwood 2) the name of a star which fell into the waters and made them bitter

 

Attempting to claim this one single verse supports the claim that the entire world was flooded by a comet, is not only completely ludicrous, the logic holds water like a pair of pantyhose

One single verse .....for an event that flooded the entire planet ?

LOL

Please

Also, not grasping the use of " the waters " as a term of astronomy only shows you don't actually read or study the literature

Not understanding the phrasing " the seas " refers to the multitudes ( of people ) , in the scriptures, just shows you haven't bothered to study those either

Unless you have a new interpretation for the Talmudic claims of Leviathan making the seas boil ( I'm all ears  

Let me know when you've studied the scriptures, for real, and when you copy paste the material I post to find it on Google in an attempt to bluff everybody into believing you actually knew where the material was online, it would really be better if you just ask

I would gladly tell you the names of the websites if you didn't pretend to know them already

 

 

Where the heck did you get the idea that this discussion was about or even mentioned wormwood and Nabiru?

As a matter of fact religion and the bible has hardly been mentioned which has made this an enjoyable debate so far.

Maybe it behooves you to go back and read what has actually been written.

Nobody here has to my knowledge even claimed a worldwide flood that drowned the continents.

[Onoma]

On 5/31/2017 at 3:13 PM, Jor-el said:

So tell us about those new moons and eclipses and how that relates to the mesopatamian flood myths

The floor is yours too....

I did just that, exactly that,but you are a pseudo-intellectual poser and don't know what you are looking at 

Because I can see that I would need crayons to teach you, I will have to ignore you

Had you been more honest I would have invited you to my forum to teach you, but I cannot teach a man who already knows it all

Have a nice day

 

[Jor-el]

1 hour ago, Onoma said:

I did just that, exactly that,but you are a pseudo-intellectual poser and don't know what you are looking at 

Because I can see that I would need crayons to teach you, I will have to ignore you

Had you been more honest I would have invited you to my forum to teach you, but I cannot teach a man who already knows it all

Have a nice day

 

Oh I'm teachable just not gullible. Have nice day... 

[Essan]

1 hour ago, Onoma said:

I did just that, exactly that,but you are a pseudo-intellectual poser and don't know what you are looking at 

Because I can see that I would need crayons to teach you, I will have to ignore you

Had you been more honest I would have invited you to my forum to teach you, but I cannot teach a man who already knows it all

Have a nice day

 

We are discussing the possibility that there was a cometary impact in the Indian Ocean around 5,000 years ago and that this gave rise to many of the global flood myths

your comments seem to have no bearing on this and certainly offer no additonal information,

Do you have anything constructive to add to this discussion?

We welcome people with different ideas.   We do not welcome trollls

[Doug1029]

FYI:

I just discovered a tree in the Tornetrask chronology (Sweden) that shows some sort of disturbance for the years 2795 to 2792 BC.  That's both a year shorter and 13 years later than the White Mountain and Methuselah Walk chronologies.  The difference could be a cross-dating error.  Complicating life, the disturbance is recorded in juvenile wood; that makes cross-dating harder.  I'll have to check that out when I find some time.  In the meantime, I'm not even half way through Tornetrask yet.

Doug

[Jor-el]

2 hours ago, Doug1o29 said:

FYI:

I just discovered a tree in the Tornetrask chronology (Sweden) that shows some sort of disturbance for the years 2795 to 2792 BC.  That's both a year shorter and 13 years later than the White Mountain and Methuselah Walk chronologies.  The difference could be a cross-dating error.  Complicating life, the disturbance is recorded in juvenile wood; that makes cross-dating harder.  I'll have to check that out when I find some time.  In the meantime, I'm not even half way through Tornetrask yet.

Doug

Hi Doug, I think that is a little short even if it is in the correct time period generally. Could the devastating effects actually pass in less than 10 years climatically speaking?

The ice cores demonstrate a drop for close to 3 centuries, but I'm wondering if the direct effects on plant life could not have recovered much sooner.

Wouldn't we necessarily see a correspondence between the ice core temperatures and the tree ring chronologies, and if not, why is there no correspondence when one would be expected?

As it stands now there seems to be conflicting data here that I'm not understanding.

[Doug1029]

On ‎6‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 5:04 PM, Jor-el said:

Hi Doug, I think that is a little short even if it is in the correct time period generally. Could the devastating effects actually pass in less than 10 years climatically speaking?

The ice cores demonstrate a drop for close to 3 centuries, but I'm wondering if the direct effects on plant life could not have recovered much sooner.

Wouldn't we necessarily see a correspondence between the ice core temperatures and the tree ring chronologies, and if not, why is there no correspondence when one would be expected?

As it stands now there seems to be conflicting data here that I'm not understanding.

Not all climatic effects show up in tree rings.  Trees tend to show low temps in their rings more than high temps.  A six-year cold snap could turn into a hot wave and all the trees would show is the cold snap.  Extracting temperature records from tree rings is a long, painful process.  I wasn't planning on doing it, but maybe someday...

Ring width does not have a one-to-one correspondence with temperature.  There's too much stuff that confounds it.  Also, temps can be doing one thing in one place and something else in another place.  It could be hotter in North America while being cooler in Europe, for example.  We might be having a wet period while the other side of the mountain is in a drought.

Probably the best way to look for a 300-year climate disturbance is to check the ring width variance and see if it differs from adjoining time periods.  If so, it would indicate higher highs and lower lows.  It's not an explanation; but it shows that something was different.

Conflicting data is part-and-parcel of natural phenomena.  Trying to understand it is what research is all about.

Doug

[Essan]

Something I cam across the other day that may have some relevance to this

Scientists digging in a sea cave in Indonesia have discovered the world's most pristine record of tsunamis, a 5,000-year-old sedimentary snapshot that reveals for the first time how little is known about when earthquakes trigger massive waves

~ ~ ~
The stratigraphic record reveals successive layers of sand, bat droppings and other debris laid down by tsunamis between 7,900 and 2,900 years ago. The stratigraphy since 2,900 years ago was washed away by the 2004 tsunami.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170719084814.htm