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The Truman show

Trump to pull U.S. from Middle East

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Space Commander Travis
10 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Scandals aren't merely measured by their number but by severity.  I'll take all of the mentioned Obama scandals combined over one catastrophic Iraq War instigated by his criminal predecessors, that's a pretty easy bar to clear.  What president has had less scandals than Obama?

And how does 'Hillary's email server' merit a mention, what did Obama have to do with that?  Should we also include the Ryan Lochte incident at the Olympics in his 'scandals aplenty'?

She was his anointed successor around whom the entire Democratic party machine was constructed. She may not have had an official position at the time but she was certainly part of Obama's crew. Obama has pulled back on Bush's involvements, yes, but at the same time can hardly claim much in the way of success, but he's got involved in many other involvements as well, hardly any of which have been met with any more success. 

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bee

.

also regarding ------ And how does 'Hillary's email server' merit a mention, 

Obama told a lie about it and got found out via a wikileaks email release -

 

https://www.lifezette.com/polizette/wikileaks-evidence-obama-knew-lied-clinton-email-server/

 

A March 2015 email chain released by WikiLeaks Tuesday is further proof that President Obama lied to the American people when he said he found out about Hillary Clinton’s private email server from news reports.

“Jen you probably have more on this but it looks like POTUS just said he found out HRC was using her personal email when he saw it in the news,” Clinton spokesman Josh Schwerin wrote to Communications Director Jennifer Palmieri, press secretary Nick Merrill, and others.

Merrill then forwarded Schwerin’s email to longtime Clinton confidante and attorney Cheryl Mills, who sent it to campaign Chairman John Podesta. “We need to clean this up,” she wrote to Podesta. “He has emails from her — they do not say state.gov.”

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The Truman show
7 hours ago, bee said:
Published on Jan 5, 2017

'Daesh was threatening to take Damascus. That's why Russia came in. We saw it coming too, but thought we could use it to force Assad to negotiate...' That is the essence of Kerry's comments here.

bee, how is this some silver bullet? All Kerry is saying is that America was willing to take advantage of a bad situation (ISIS taking Damascus) in order to remove Assad. In no way does it confirm that ISIS is a American construct. Not saying that ISIS is free from American involvement... just that there is no proof that Obama created it or that he is responsible for it.   

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The Truman show
6 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

The man gave drug cartels thousands of assault weapons, that later killed a boarder security agent. Gave himself the power to indefinitely detain and or kill anyone in the world including American citizens with no due process. He has continued and started several undeclared and unconstitutional wars. He has changed several parts of 0bama care, long after it past, with no congressional over site. He has defied the supreme court on immigration. He has spent more money then all presidents combined. Just cause the media you listen to didn't report any of this, doesn't mean it wasn't so. He was literally the worst president in the history of this country.

I really don't know about that. You might be right. Until something comes out we'll never know and condemning Obama on here-say wouldn't be fair. Having said that i thought it was common U.S. practice to institute and encourage the drug cartels to fight among themselves. Wasting their resources and disrupting their business. Seen the movie Sicario? Top movie. I think the C.I.A and the intelligence community have the leed on this policy. Nothing fair about pointing a finger at Obama. Fighting the drug cartels with whatever means is state policy not a presidential one at the mercy of who's in office. Besides the man got elected as president of the USA and not the Pope of the church. 

Define worst president ever?

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Space Commander Travis
9 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

 

Define worst president ever?

This is quite a scientific survey on that subject:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States

It seems it's a bit early to say for sure, but the consensus seems to be that he's about #18, which out of 44 (or 43, opinions differ) isn't too shabby I suppose.

Poor ol' GW though, ranging from 31 to 39. If you ask me they were a bit generous to Bill, certainly APSA '15 seems to be. Who would possibly put him at number 8?!

 

 

Edited by Manfred von Dreidecker
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The Truman show
6 hours ago, Lilly said:

President Obama didn't have any of the 'sex scandal' issues we often see. However, he most certainly has had scandals aplenty.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/the-obama-era-had-scandals-aplenty/article/2006197

 

 

Yes that is quite a list. Not sure that any are worthy of shaming the office of president. Sounds more like collateral damage to bad choices. Like his critics are scraping the bottom of the 'scandals barrel' looking for someway to justify the slimly dealings of politicians like Clinton, Trump and Bush. Obama is in a different league IMO.  

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Liquid Gardens
29 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

She was his anointed successor around whom the entire Democratic party machine was constructed. She may not have had an official position at the time but she was certainly part of Obama's crew. Obama has pulled back on Bush's involvements, yes, but at the same time can hardly claim much in the way of success, but he's got involved in many other involvements as well, hardly any of which have been met with any more success. 

You and I probably have a much different definition of what counts as a 'success' within the context of our presidents.  I consider ending the Iraq War, eliminating OBL, passing the stimulus, repealing 'don't ask don't tell', and passing health care reform to be successes.  The last one especially is a qualified success, there were certainly failures with that too, but considering it was done despite Republicans dedicated to obstructing anything he might be able to take credit for and providing almost zero better ideas of their own, it was quite an accomplishment to ever get it passed.  Lots of things he did that I didn't like too, but a lot of that was just continuing to extend things his predecessors did that I didn't agree with either.

On the low end we are responsible for over 100,000 civilians in Iraq in our last war, that we instigated based largely on a lie, a war that it is extremely doubtful we would have even entered into if anybody other than Bush and Cheney were in office.  I don't know what possible calculus we could be using where, "Benghazi, Fast and Furious gunrunning, Solyndra and green energy subsidies for campaign donors, cash for Iranian hostages, IRS targeting of conservative groups, spying on journalists, Hillary Clinton's private email server, the Veterans Administration disaster, trading deserter Bowe Bergdahl for five Taliban leaders held in Guantánamo, droning American citizens without due process, and firing inspector general Gerald Walpin for investigating an Obama crony who was abusing federal programs" equals even a tenth of that death toll, at least as far as what should be 'scandalous'.  Let alone equaling a fraction of the negative impact on our own troops.

Even if we use a more popular definition of 'scandal', one where the biggest scandal in the last 30 years was probably Monicagate, Obama is just plain too boring; Hillary probably exceeds Obama under that definition and Trump was generating them at a clip of about one a week during his candidacy.

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Space Commander Travis
4 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

Obama is in a different league IMO

Yes, just mediocre and a disappointment, I think is probably a fair assessment. Unlike, say, Carter, though, who might be said the same of, but seems a decent man with genuine Christian beliefs, I'm afraid Barack just comes across as smug and smarmy, that way he always smirks at his pals in the press at press conferences and so on, and the way (onto more substantial matters) he made himself a reputation as a remote control assassin, drawing up "kill lists" of Bad Guys to terminate this week,  and watching live on TV as they're taken out by drone.

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bee
21 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

bee, how is this some silver bullet? All Kerry is saying is that America was willing to take advantage of a bad situation (ISIS taking Damascus) in order to remove Assad. In no way does it confirm that ISIS is a American construct. Not saying that ISIS is free from American involvement... just that there is no proof that Obama created it or that he is responsible for it.   

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this is a 'straw man' ...^

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

.

 

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bee
7 hours ago, bee said:

.

 

 

.

notice at the very beginning of this that Kerry describes the Assad Regime as the '''legitimate regime''' -

that's not what the Obama Administration were saying in public - they were always making out that it

wasn't a legitimate regime - because that way they portrayed themselves as justified in removing it !

.

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The Truman show
21 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Yes, just mediocre and a disappointment, I think is probably a fair assessment. Unlike, say, Carter, though, who might be said the same of, but seems a decent man with genuine Christian beliefs, I'm afraid Barack just comes across as smug and smarmy, that way he always smirks at his pals in the press at press conferences and so on, and the way (onto more substantial matters) he made himself a reputation as a remote control assassin, drawing up "kill lists" of Bad Guys to terminate this week,  and watching live on TV as they're taken out by drone.

Manfred are you still angry at Obama for trying to swing the brexit referendum? Sure it was outta place but don't you think that he was trying to save yourselves from a bad knee jerk reaction? Well I'm sure one day Obama's presidency will be condemned as smug and smarmy and cast into the realms of worse presidency of all times. I guess like all things we're all hooked on tabloid controversy. What ever happened to dependable and stable? I guess those qualities just don't get a rise outta us anymore.   

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The Truman show
21 minutes ago, bee said:

.

this is a 'straw man' ...^

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

.

 

bee... i haven't misrepresented anything. You have post something that can easily be taken out of context. As well it should if you can't provide something more definitive than a vague conversation. Show me proof that Kerry created ISIS and i will be the first to condemn him. Of course i will have to wait in line cause American politics and the legal system being what it is will get him way before that. The fact that it hasn't should be proof enough that your source is over exaggerating the significance of that chance recording. 

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bee
5 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

bee... i haven't misrepresented anything. You have post something that can easily be taken out of context. As well it should if you can't provide something more definitive than a vague conversation. Show me proof that Kerry created ISIS and i will be the first to condemn him. Of course i will have to wait in line cause American politics and the legal system being what it is will get him way before that. The fact that it hasn't should be proof enough that your source is over exaggerating the significance of that chance recording. 

 

You are at it again...

Did I say Kerry created ISIS - ?

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The Truman show
1 minute ago, bee said:

 

You are at it again...

Did I say Kerry created ISIS - ?

.

 

Well what are you saying when posting that link about Kerry and the reference to ISIS?

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bee
1 minute ago, Captain Risky said:

Well what are you saying when posting that link about Kerry and the reference to ISIS?

.

I can't spend the evening chasing you around the forum exposing your bad habit of misrepresenting stuff - - ^_^

and please don't play the confused innocent with me --- (re your question above)  -

keep up

.

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The Truman show
3 minutes ago, bee said:

.

I can't spend the evening chasing you around the forum exposing your bad habit of misrepresenting stuff - - ^_^

and please don't play the confused innocent with me --- (re your question above)  -

keep up

.

I will make a concerted effort in the future to keep up. ;)

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Lilly
1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

Yes that is quite a list. Not sure that any are worthy of shaming the office of president....

Benghazi alone is sufficiently shameful.

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Aftermath
33 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

bee... i haven't misrepresented anything. You have post something that can easily be taken out of context. As well it should if you can't provide something more definitive than a vague conversation. Show me proof that Kerry created ISIS and i will be the first to condemn him. Of course i will have to wait in line cause American politics and the legal system being what it is will get him way before that. The fact that it hasn't should be proof enough that your source is over exaggerating the significance of that chance recording. 

I've listened to the audio, how can it be taken out of context?  This conversation is not vague in the least...  it is very specific and concerned with the U.S. involvement in Syria and specifically how the U.S. is going to help get rid of Assad.

bee said nothing regarding proof...  the actual statement was:

11 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

there's been a lot of interest in what Kerry said privately at a UN meeting - not proof as such but indication..?

Notice bee wrote: "not proof as such..."

 

I don't think the argument is whether Kerry, specifically, created ISIS... rather that the U.S. aided the creation of the terror organization by arming and funding them in Syria.  That's what the audio certainly eludes to.  And you also concur as you did say:

1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

Not saying that ISIS is free from American involvement...

 

 

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bee
14 minutes ago, Aftermath said:

I've listened to the audio, how can it be taken out of context?  This conversation is not vague in the least...  it is very specific and concerned with the U.S. involvement in Syria and specifically how the U.S. is going to help get rid of Assad.

bee said nothing regarding proof...  the actual statement was:

Notice bee wrote: "not proof as such..."

 

I don't think the argument is whether Kerry, specifically, created ISIS... rather that the U.S. aided the creation of the terror organization by arming and funding them in Syria.  That's what the audio certainly eludes to.  And you also concur as you did say:

 

 

.

Thanks ---

in the Kerry audio as well ---- I don't know how the US sitting back and doing nothing -
watching and waiting (and aiding?) '''Daesh''' as it got stronger and moved towards taking Damascus
and possibly then forming a government was supposed to help the Syrian people...?

what kind of insane logic is that..!!!

.

 

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The Truman show
3 hours ago, Lilly said:

Benghazi alone is sufficiently shameful.

From what little i have read of the Benghazi incident i must conclude that it wasn't America's finest moment. Correct me if Im wrong (sure there will be at some least someone, lol), but wasn't that a case of bad intel from the C.I.A? 

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Hammerclaw
3 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

From what little i have read of the Benghazi incident i must conclude that it wasn't America's finest moment. Correct me if Im wrong (sure there will be at some least someone, lol), but wasn't that a case of bad intel from the C.I.A? 

It was a case of Hillary Clinton's State Department ignoring the strongly expressed concerns of a Senior Diplomat that his life and that of his colleagues was, possibly, in imminent danger as a result of inadequate security.

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Frank Merton
1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

It was a case of Hillary Clinton's State Department ignoring the strongly expressed concerns of a Senior Diplomat that his life and that of his colleagues was, possibly, in imminent danger as a result of inadequate security.

Now that is interesting; the version of the story most of the press carried was the exact opposite -- that they were not worried and she was.

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and then
12 hours ago, Dark_Grey said:

Armchair Generals of UM: how do we prevent another power vacuum scenario? Al Queda and ISIS are not good legacies to leave behind. Pulling the troops out is important, but HOW they are removed is just as important...

 

I'd build a massive base in northern Iraq among the Kurds.  Accept the fact that we are in this war for the long-term and lay the marker for all to see that we will not be leaving as long as our interests are threatened.  That would slow Iran's progress toward hegemony as well as make clear to Putin that while we don't seek further conflict, we are prepared for it. It would also call Erdog's hand in this game.   Such a base would include hundreds of strike aircraft, armor and at least a division of troops with a SOG contingent.  This conflict cannot end by capitulation and retreat.  That will only embolden our enemies.  And I mean the enemies of the US and EU.  

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and then
9 hours ago, Lilly said:

Benghazi alone is sufficiently shameful.

It tops my list.  Number two would be his use of the IRS to damage his enemies.  Saying he had no scandals because the media didn't cover them is ludicrous on its face.

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and then
2 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

Now that is interesting; the version of the story most of the press carried was the exact opposite -- that they were not worried and she was.

There is a record of multiple requests by Stevens for beefing up security and no action on her part. Leaving aside any of that, there were forces available to interdict those attacking the compound but they were never sent.  To send them meant to admit publicly that despite Obama's campaign claims that the radicals were "on the run", they had attacked a US facility on 9-11.  Those men were cut loose and allowed to die for Obama's and Hillary's political ambitions.  They both deserve to be tried for treason.

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