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stevnpa

New and a sceptic but...

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XenoFish

If you can point out to proper studies of the supernatural then do so. I figured whoever had successfully discovered the supernatural/paranormal 'realm' would be considered a genus. Such a discovery would shake the foundation of modern physics. 

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psyche101
11 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

This is why science is still a long way off. Wait I don't mean to say science as a whole. Certain people who are in the scientific community are a long way off from beginning to understand the supernatural.

Even more intrigued by your statement, who in the scientific community do you feel is "beginning" to understand the supernatural? 

11 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

How can you possibly begin to understand something you venomously deny is even possible? Even going as far as to be insulted by the idea.

I not anyone else is claiming it is impossible, what I am claiming is it is a man made construct and there there is simply zero reason to believe it is more than a comforting tall tale. As I say, we can measure the weakest forces in nature one can imagine, we can can measure the effect of the supernatural if it really does affect people. That is this "material" realm and if we can interact with the supernatural, then that can be detected. Any proof would be more than welcome as it would be like offering science a massive booster shot and accelerate it. Simply put, we have looked, there is nothing there, to keep insisting there is is just a waste of time and effort, and offering a pointless avenue to those wanting to understand things better. We might as well keep insisting Unicorns exist. It is an insult on logic and common sense according to what we do understand. 

11 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

I wasn't saying that materialism was "colloquialism for Deliberate ignorance or something", However I cant see now that it may be so in some cases.

Creationists are the worst offenders no doubt. 

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psyche101
9 hours ago, XenoFish said:

If you can point out to proper studies of the supernatural then do so. I figured whoever had successfully discovered the supernatural/paranormal 'realm' would be considered a genus. Such a discovery would shake the foundation of modern physics. 

Indeed, many would like to see this alleged proof. 

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ShadowSot

 I'd be careful about dismissing something completely out of hand. 

 But what we have with the paranormal are claims that run up against very well tested scientific laws and theories, but are unable to produce incontrovertible evidence for their claims. 

 When asked for evidence we see two things. Either special exemptions have to be made for any even mildly significant result to be shown, which also means the results are in doubt. Or the claims are formulated in such a way that they can't be demonstrated. 

 We've seen both in this thread, and that simply makes them unconvincing. 

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XenoFish
3 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Indeed, many would like to see this alleged proof. 

I would love proof. It would be a truly amazing day to have something that say's "You know what? There is more." It's like all those people who want to insert quantum woo into all that law of attraction nonsense. If we had solid and repeatable proof that our thoughts "manifest" then who wouldn't be researching that? Do you think I'd had put my occult practices on the side lines if I knew for a provable fact that it worked. Hell 2 the no.

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Mr Walker
On 10/01/2017 at 6:32 PM, ShadowSot said:

Basically, we are prone to a false positive when it comes to seeing something. 

 See, it's better to see something not there, and run, than it is to miss something not there, and get eaten. 

 So our senses are over tuned to seeing patterns. 

 Like how you can look at clouds and see figures.

The last point gets me.

I have never in my life looked at a cloud and seen any sort of figure in it. 

Maybe it is because i am too busy identifying and classifying the cloud type, it's likely temperature /dew point, altitude  and consistency, and what sort of weather it will herald.

Also we don't actually SEE something  in the scenario you outlined. We imagine that something might be causing the bush to rustle and take precautions.

It is a consequence of the quality of our mind to extrapolate  possibilities from data and act on those potentialities , not a form of mispercetion.  Those who take the precautions survive and pass on their genes.  Those who do not, do not.

Better to ALWAYS avoid a rustling bush,  or a dark alley, even though 9 times out of ten there may be no danger.

Edited by Mr Walker

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back to earth

Tries to suggest to us he doesn't see pictures in clouds due to his business in observing   scientific data and weather predictions   ....

forget  he told us he cant understand or process images   .....       :D  

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back to earth

Image result for face in the clouds

 

Looks like   Rain !     Rain Johnstone  that is .  

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ShadowSot
2 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Tries to suggest to us he doesn't see pictures in clouds due to his business in observing   scientific data and weather predictions   ....

forget  he told us he cant understand or process images   .....       :D  

If it wasn't Walker, I'd point out that seeing patterns as evidence of a threat when no actual threat is there is a misperception.

Or that he just restated my point. 

 

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back to earth

Careful there SS   , he will see that as a personal  attack !    

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psyche101
On 1/18/2017 at 10:47 AM, ShadowSot said:

 I'd be careful about dismissing something completely out of hand. 

Not always I reckon, the arguments supporting the afterlife are often rehashed time and again, and are well refuted by what we do know. The old ideals that so many hang their hat on are simply not viable. The Brain being stored elsewhere, the bodies energy, none of these arguments make any sense and better evidence exists that can dismiss such ideals. 

Quote

 But what we have with the paranormal are claims that run up against very well tested scientific laws and theories, but are unable to produce incontrovertible evidence for their claims. 

Exactly, but clashing with science does not seem to offer any favourable insights, we just get "science is incomplete" or "It is out of the material Universe" just poor excuses that some people insist are somehow answers. 

Quote

 When asked for evidence we see two things. Either special exemptions have to be made for any even mildly significant result to be shown, which also means the results are in doubt. Or the claims are formulated in such a way that they can't be demonstrated. 

And the opportunity to test these claims is given, but they fail, funny thing is the people pushing these alternate ideals seem so taken with them, some of them cannot believe it when shown their beliefs are unreliable, and the results no better than chance, of course that becomes persecution, and in some way, not constructive criticism. 

Quote

 We've seen both in this thread, and that simply makes them unconvincing. 

Even that is an extremely diplomatic description. ;) 

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psyche101
57 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

The last point gets me.

I have never in my life looked at a cloud and seen any sort of figure in it. 

Maybe it is because i am too busy identifying and classifying the cloud type, it's likely temperature /dew point, altitude  and consistency, and what sort of weather it will herald.

Also we don't actually SEE something  in the scenario you outlined. We imagine that something might be causing the bush to rustle and take precautions.

It is a consequence of the quality of our mind to extrapolate  possibilities from data and act on those potentialities , not a form of mispercetion.  Those who take the precautions survive and pass on their genes.  Those who do not, do not.

Better to ALWAYS avoid a rustling bush,  or a dark alley, even though 9 times out of ten there may be no danger.

 

Nah, you do not do that. You come up with some fanciful idea and claim it is workable according to future technologies yet to be dreamed up. Without providing the framework as to what is being done in that very direction, it's just words. 

This is what the 50's told us today would look like. 

b0ae81378e1d103534cbf94a9f566904.jpg

 

 

 

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ShadowSot
11 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Careful there SS   , he will see that as a personal  attack !    

That's for an impartial moderating authority to decide. 

 

2 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Not always I reckon, the arguments supporting the afterlife are often rehashed time and again, and are well refuted by what we do know. The old ideals that so many hang their hat on are simply not viable. The Brain being stored elsewhere, the bodies energy, none of these arguments make any sense and better evidence exists that can dismiss such ideals. 

 I generally believe when someone is reporting a paranormal claim they are being as honest and reliably as can be expected of someone. That part shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. 

 Doing so is why we have trouble with people not being aware of things like sleep paralysis, even at the professional level. 

 Alien abduction accounts can be traumatic, even if we don't think they are actual events of alien contact. 

 Dismissing those out of hand pushes people who experience them into self enforcing support groups. 

 We know that recovered memories under hypnosis is fatally flawed, and that sleep paralysis explains most of the accounts. 

 But that's not general knowledge at all. 

 A case can be made for dismissing the metaphysical claims out of hand after so much counter evidence. But not the experience itself. 

2 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Exactly, but clashing with science does not seem to offer any favourable insights, we just get "science is incomplete" or "It is out of the material Universe" just poor excuses that some people insist are somehow answers. 

  Oh sure. You put them through it and like with many such claims the responses get less and less grounded as you go along. 

 But examining the cause of the phenomena can give interesting insights into psychology if nothing else. 

 Like how mass media has effected the perception of sleep paralysis. 

2 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

And the opportunity to test these claims is given, but they fail, funny thing is the people pushing these alternate ideals seem so taken with them, some of them cannot believe it when shown their beliefs are unreliable, and the results no better than chance, of course that becomes persecution, and in some way, not constructive criticism. 

 

If you get the chance, check out Randi's book Flim Flam. He writes all about the rubber duckies. 

 I've sat with folks from IIG and they have some stories to tell. Sat in on one of the challenges once at a conference, and the fellow was explaining away his failure before he even started the test. 

 Though he did refuse to reschedule. 

 Then there are the repeated con artists who get soundly exposed, but pop up again years later. Like Gellar or Peter Popoff. 

 

2 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Even that is an extremely diplomatic description. ;) 

 It doesn't hurt. I'm not good with aggressiveness.

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psyche101
37 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

I generally believe when someone is reporting a paranormal claim they are being as honest and reliably as can be expected of someone. That part shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. 

I hear what you are saying, I just feel some claims are rehashes of older claims, it seems a waste of time to keep treading the same path. 

37 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

 Doing so is why we have trouble with people not being aware of things like sleep paralysis, even at the professional level. 

 Alien abduction accounts can be traumatic, even if we don't think they are actual events of alien contact. 

 Dismissing those out of hand pushes people who experience them into self enforcing support groups. 

The problem is there does not seem to be a rational approach. As with the Dawkins experiment up there, even when shown in the most gentle and fair fashion, in tests agreed to by the participants, people still do not believe that they themselves are not gifted. And you are right, a hardline rational approach just tends to have such people pull their beliefs even tighter around them. Problems seems to be there is no way to approach such claims rationally, and I think the sour grapes against Randi's million dollar challenge illustrate this very well. Not poor experiments, no underhanded tricks to make people with paranormal claims look silly, they simply fail is all, but refuse to accept they failed. 

37 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

 We know that recovered memories under hypnosis is fatally flawed, and that sleep paralysis explains most of the accounts. 

 But that's not general knowledge at all. 

Indeed, or worse, memories can and have been implanted to reach a desired conclusion. Not uncommon in UFOlogy. 

37 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

A case can be made for dismissing the metaphysical claims out of hand after so much counter evidence. But not the experience itself. 

  Oh sure. You put them through it and like with many such claims the responses get less and less grounded as you go along. 

 But examining the cause of the phenomena can give interesting insights into psychology if nothing else. 

 Like how mass media has effected the perception of sleep paralysis. 

I would agree but not entirely, not sure that people like Sylvia Browne or Eben Alexander ever had anything genuine about them. 

37 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

If you get the chance, check out Randi's book Flim Flam. He writes all about the rubber duckies. 

Will do, I'll track down an E Copy :tu: Thanks for the heads up. 

37 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

 I've sat with folks from IIG and they have some stories to tell. Sat in on one of the challenges once at a conference, and the fellow was explaining away his failure before he even started the test. 

 Though he did refuse to reschedule. 

 Then there are the repeated con artists who get soundly exposed, but pop up again years later. Like Gellar or Peter Popoff. 

Those are the people I am directing at, but more than them, also their minions who go around professing them as magicians and any skeptic or the science that refutes the claims as suppressors trying to hold them back from giving the world a wonderful free gift.

And the problem there is far too many only hear and stop at "free wonderful gift" the rest just seems to trail of into nothingness. Hence they get support that is only directed by sheer ignorance. 

37 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

 It doesn't hurt. I'm not good with aggressiveness.

Maybe my age? ;) I give what I get, these days, there are some very pleasant people to discuss these subjects with, and some ...... not so much. We see that even here with the posters that defend or scrutinise these claims. Construction life has not influenced my diplomatic skills, just enhanced the "get it done" ones :D

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ShadowSot
8 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I hear what you are saying, I just feel some claims are rehashes of older claims, it seems a waste of time to keep treading the same path. 

Oh yeah. If you have an interest in history and go into skepticism, in an almost literal sense there is nothing new that comes up. Just variants with whatever the new technology and cutting edge science is of the day. 

 There used to be the same sort of fear over ball point pens as there is now over WiFi. 

 Seriously.

8 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

The problem is there does not seem to be a rational approach. As with the Dawkins experiment up there, even when shown in the most gentle and fair fashion, in tests agreed to by the participants, people still do not believe that they themselves are not gifted. And you are right, a hardline rational approach just tends to have such people pull their beliefs even tighter around them. Problems seems to be there is no way to approach such claims rationally, and I think the sour grapes against Randi's million dollar challenge illustrate this very well. Not poor experiments, no underhanded tricks to make people with paranormal claims look silly, they simply fail is all, but refuse to accept they failed.

 

Yep, but those people aren't really the point. It's nice to try to get those people to think about it, but you aren't going to get them in one go. 

 The point of things like the various challenges is not to make the person realize they are wrong, but to have a way of showing people who aren't really committed that this stuff just doesn't work as claimed. 

 Debates are the same way, in a debate the point isn't to sway your opponent, but to strike the crowd. 

 On forums like these there are many more people who read the comments than reply in a thread. 

 And not that you won't convince people. I have certainly changed my position a great deal since I first got online in the late 90s. 

 Though I do think that we won't see it as often, at this point people are either isolated in Facebook groups or have been around on forums going over the same points for years. 

 I know a few members here from other foeums, and I've seen the change in posting from long, detailed posts to short sparky remarks.

 I try to keep in mind though that my posts aren't really addressed to the person I'm speaking to. 

8 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Indeed, or worse, memories can and have been implanted to reach a desired conclusion. Not uncommon in UFOlogy. 

Yep, or the Satanic Panic. Reading about the results of hypnosis there frankly terrified me with how people were lead to believe they had things done to them, or they had done to their loved ones... First time I was really freaked out about something I've read. 

8 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I would agree but not entirely, not sure that people like Sylvia Browne or Eben Alexander ever had anything genuine about them. 

Probably not, though it wouldn't surprise me if they really did/do think they are doing something and just fake it a bit now and then to keep the crowd entertained. People are funny like that.

8 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Will do, I'll track down an E Copy :tu: Thanks for the heads up. 

It's a good but long book. A bit dated but worth reading. 

 I liked what he did with setting up a fake psychic guru in Australia. Good point against people who see the media as to materialistic. 

8 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Those are the people I am directing at, but more than them, also their minions who go around professing them as magicians and any skeptic or the science that refutes the claims as suppressors trying to hold them back from giving the world a wonderful free gift.

And the problem there is far too many only hear and stop at "free wonderful gift" the rest just seems to trail of into nothingness. Hence they get support that is only directed by sheer ignorance. 

Yep. For all the attacks over the evil all powerful skeptics, the people who have the money and the resources are the people claiming magic abilities and power. 

 There's not a lot of critical thinking about these things. Even something fairly innocuous like the Secret or Positive Energy (or whatever they call it). 

 What bugs me are people who don't actually believe in psychics or ghosts or Alien visitation, but don't really know why it's fake. They just know the pop culture Menes about it. 

 Why I get bugged over it, is it only takes a few unexplained things for them to switch. Stuff that we could figure out, but the skills required just aren't common. 

 That and I have a bad survival instinct. First time I see something weird I run towards it to see what's going on. 

8 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Maybe my age? ;) I give what I get, these days, there are some very pleasant people to discuss these subjects with, and some ...... not so much. We see that even here with the posters that defend or scrutinise these claims. Construction life has not influenced my diplomatic skills, just enhanced the "get it done" ones :D

Yeah, I get it. I mean, I'm not at all any sort of poster boy for patience and politeness. 

 Sometimes I just get bored and interact with people I usually wouldn't. And sometimes that goes badly. 

 But I try to keep in mind who might be reading it. 

 Heh, I've spent the last 20 years or so, well more now with it being 2017, doing Factory work and being on boards like this in my spare time. 

 I just don't even find the paranormal board interesting at all anymore, when it was one of the main places I posted when I joined. 

 Might be I've learned patience from the work, lots of times you get impatient and you break something.

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stevnpa

Wow! I was just wondering what these experiences were about. I didn't intend to open up a major debate.

Also one of the other people in the house heard the whistling I mentioned.

I reiterate, I'm pretty sure I was awake, but of course different states of mind are subjective.

Any thoughts on the other experiences?

Steve.

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