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May's brexit speech


spartan max2
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1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

BOLDED: If Hard Brexit was the only real option then why is May pursing soft Brexit? 

BOLDED: EU-lite without the fee's and responsibilities of laws and border controls is exactly what May want's. Fancy that... telling the UK public that she's gunning for hard brexit while hoping beyond hope that the EU gives in to her demands for soft brexit. 

BOLDED: Ha ha... no longer part of the club but with free and uninterrupted access to it. Canada, South Korea and Peru don't have the privileged trade partnership that Britain want's. And Britain doesn't want what they have either. Cause if they did then we wouldn't have anything to say about the matter. 

BOLDED: You already have trade deals with all those countries. May and the brexiteers just think they can do better. Maybe maybe not.  

BOLDED: I would never underestimate anyone let alone the British. But being British is no guarantee of success. 

I'll take your points one by one.

1) You are wrong, We are leaving the single Market. Soft Brexit is remaining in the single market. We are leaving the Single market full stop. that's what you personally call Hard Brexit.

2) May does not want EU-lite, EU-lite means staying in the single market, continuation of EU laws, paying a membership fee and accepting Free movement. Theresa May has stated we will not be accepting any of that.

3) Canada (yet to be ratified) south Korea etc.. have free trade agreements with the EU. without accepting EU law, paying a membership fee and freedom of movement, (cherry picking)

4) Trade deals with the 12 countries, Britain does in fact trade with those countries under WTO rules and imposes the EU external tariff from 3% to 200% on goods, the UK can do better, Out of the EU the UK can strike a deal which will do away with the EU's external tariff and strike our own bespoke trade deals.

5) 600 years of unrivelled success. let it wash over you. 600 years and little old blighty is going strong. i'll take them odd's it'll continue.

Theresa May as asked for nothing any sensible country would ask for, as for cherry picking that's what you do with trade deals. both side cherry pick and reach an agreement. why on earth would you negotiate in areas were you have no interest. The UK wants to trade with the EU in the same manner it wants to trade with anyother Non-EU country.

I thought you said you listened to the speech? you seem to be confusing yourself different issues.

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10 hours ago, stevewinn said:

1) You are wrong, We are leaving the single Market. Soft Brexit is remaining in the single market. We are leaving the Single market full stop. that's what you personally call Hard Brexit.

I'm i really wrong? Stevewinn... if you want to leave the single market then why do you want access as a de-facto member? Leaving the single market in reality is either talking on a soft brexit like Norway, where you are subjected to the same trade rules and responsibilities like fee's in order to have uninterrupted access to the trade bloc OR taking on a trade agreement with the EU like say Canada. May's speech was an ultimatum to the EU that she want's the same privileges as Norway without the fee's or subjected to EU trade and movement laws. And if she doesn't get it Britain will become troublesome and threaten the EU. That's May's speech in a nutshell. 'Give us what we want or we will break your windows.' Does that sound like a confident and well thought out plan? 

I want you to think about this stevewinn. A country like Britain that runs a trade deficit and has a lopsided budget, threatening the EU with a trade war. MORE outside imports for Britain further aggravating its balance of payments figures and collecting less corporate and business tax to stay competitive. Who is gonna make up the budget shortfall? The same people that voted brexit, that's who. 

Unless Trump gets involved and threatens the EU to play nice with the brexiteers and/or Le Pen wins the presidential elections in France, i can't honestly see how prime minister May's exit negotiations are going to deliver anything other than the same agreement that Canada, America or Australia currently has with the EU. And if that happens then the EU might as well just disintegrate. Even offering the UK a soft brexit option is generous in it self considering that the UK will be a future competitor for investment and trade. To give the UK more than that wouldn't be fair to the members that pay into the EU purse and follow its rules or to those that have signed trade deals with the EU like Australia, Canada and America that don't get a de-jour relationship like the UK is asking for. 

   

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1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

I'm i really wrong? Stevewinn... if you want to leave the single market then why do you want access as a de-facto member? Leaving the single market in reality is either talking on a soft brexit like Norway, where you are subjected to the same trade rules and responsibilities like fee's in order to have uninterrupted access to the trade bloc OR taking on a trade agreement with the EU like say Canada. May's speech was an ultimatum to the EU that she want's the same privileges as Norway without the fee's or subjected to EU trade and movement laws. And if she doesn't get it Britain will become troublesome and threaten the EU. That's May's speech in a nutshell. 'Give us what we want or we will break your windows.' Does that sound like a confident and well thought out plan? 

I want you to think about this stevewinn. A country like Britain that runs a trade deficit and has a lopsided budget, threatening the EU with a trade war. MORE outside imports for Britain further aggravating its balance of payments figures and collecting less corporate and business tax to stay competitive. Who is gonna make up the budget shortfall? The same people that voted brexit, that's who. 

Unless Trump gets involved and threatens the EU to play nice with the brexiteers and/or Le Pen wins the presidential elections in France, i can't honestly see how prime minister May's exit negotiations are going to deliver anything other than the same agreement that Canada, America or Australia currently has with the EU. And if that happens then the EU might as well just disintegrate. Even offering the UK a soft brexit option is generous in it self considering that the UK will be a future competitor for investment and trade. To give the UK more than that wouldn't be fair to the members that pay into the EU purse and follow its rules or to those that have signed trade deals with the EU like Australia, Canada and America that don't get a de-jour relationship like the UK is asking for.  

Pardon my French, but **** me sideways, where did you inherit this massive axe you have to grind against Britain?

I thought Br and QM were tenacious. At least Br had a link to the UK through himself and family, and QM had a tenuous link to Europe through Greece. Is there nothing interesting enough happening in Australian politics right now, that you feel the need to play the dissident over here?

Do you even understand that trade deals work both ways? If Germany wants to sell ten of billions worth of cars in Britain, don't you perhaps think it is in their best interest to find a workable middle ground? Or would you rather May just bend over and take anything the EU send her way? I suspect that is exactly what you'd like to see - a nation you have an apparent grudge against, humbled. Well, tough luck. It's not going to happen, however soft, hard or medium-boiled our divorce from the EU is. If the EU wants to cut off its nose to spite its face, as it has been becoming clear in the last few months there are many countries outside the EU keen to do trade deals.

Anyway, time to put you on ignore for good. I tried to give you another chance, as I don't like keeping anyone on the ignore list. You're becoming more irritating than alibongo though, and that's quite an achievement!

 

 

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1 hour ago, LV-426 said:

Pardon my French, but **** me sideways, where did you inherit this massive axe you have to grind against Britain?

I have no axe to grind. Im just saying it like it is. May's speech sets a course for a 'global Britain' yet she say's she still want's a sheltered and privileged relationship with the EU. Isn't that hypocritical?

1 hour ago, LV-426 said:

I thought Br and QM were tenacious. At least Br had a link to the UK through himself and family, and QM had a tenuous link to Europe through Greece. Is there nothing interesting enough happening in Australian politics right now, that you feel the need to play the dissident over here?

What ever happened to those guy's? They were an excellent read. Great opinions and all.

Australian politics is as boring as batchit at the moment. In fact, its always boring. In some way's i envy the carnage that is soon to be directed at America and Britain. You learn from your mistakes and countries grow bigger and better as a consequence. Here in Australia we're all too lazy to give a fig about our future. That's why we have become an open cut mine and nothing really else. Our fortunes rise and fall on the price of iron ore. Iron ore that isn't even taxed at the same rate i am. That's pretty much all we are. Milking cows for the tax man. Globalisation has destroyed what used to be the great Australian dream. We were once the lucky country, not anymore, mate. We all get worked up about 10 thousand boat people that attempt to get to our shores BUT we have no problem opening our doors to the less needy 120,000 migrants that call Australia home every year. We're all sheep. Far too trusting of out political leaders and when we do change government its a case of more of the same. Im afraid Australia has become this politically passionless zombie like creature that threatens to sink us all in a mundane avalanche of political and business correctness. I see the passion and hope (even when completely wrong and silly) in Britain and America and its amazing. I wish we had such opportunities for renewal. Not the right or wrong of it but the raw passion. That's healthy. Instead we collectively lick our fingers, see which way the wind blows and then without thought for whats right for us enthusiastically follow the rest of the world. 

You wanna know why Britain and America are leaders and countries like Australia followers? Cause they question the status quo. Nothing wrong with that as long as you know your limitations and don't burn bridges. 

But unfortunately for the brexiteers and Trumpets I'm here to dispense my 2 cents and i will. Lesson here is better the devil you know. So be nice to me otherwise someone meaner and bad-er will come along. :)

1 hour ago, LV-426 said:

Do you even understand that trade deals work both ways? If Germany wants to sell ten of billions worth of cars in Britain, don't you perhaps think it is in their best interest to find a workable middle ground? Or would you rather May just bend over and take anything the EU send her way? I suspect that is exactly what you'd like to see - a nation you have an apparent grudge against, humbled. Well, tough luck. It's not going to happen, however soft, hard or medium-boiled our divorce from the EU is. If the EU wants to cut off its nose to spite its face, as it has been becoming clear in the last few months there are many countries outside the EU keen to do trade deals.

I have read your posts and stavewinn's too and though i find you both articulate and passionate, i find that your argument about brexit lacks objective honesty and real facts. An example: If Germany and France and the rest of Europe were to just worry about its trade with Britain and make any deal to safe guard it ( like you suggest), then they would destroy the euro and the EU in the process. I think Trusk said it best... the EU and Britain will drink vinegar together cause there will be no winners. All will lose. You talk about a divorce. Great analogy. What happens in a divorce? Well they both walk away and get on with their lives. The EU is prepared too even though its the UK that wants the divorce. So why won't the UK? Be global Britain. Be competitive Britain. Rule the trade seas. But you just can't do it while having an advantage over the trade bloc you have spurred. 

See my point? 

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35 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

I have no axe to grind. Im just saying it like it is. May's speech sets a course for a 'global Britain' yet she say's she still want's a sheltered and privileged relationship with the EU. Isn't that hypocritical?

What ever happened to those guy's? They were an excellent read. Great opinions and all.

Australian politics is as boring as batchit at the moment. In fact, its always boring. In some way's i envy the carnage that is soon to be directed at America and Britain. You learn from your mistakes and countries grow bigger and better as a consequence. Here in Australia we're all too lazy to give a fig about our future. That's why we have become an open cut mine and nothing really else. Our fortunes rise and fall on the price of iron ore. Iron ore that isn't even taxed at the same rate i am. That's pretty much all we are. Milking cows for the tax man. Globalisation has destroyed what used to be the great Australian dream. We were once the lucky country, not anymore, mate. We all get worked up about 10 thousand boat people that attempt to get to our shores BUT we have no problem opening our doors to the less needy 120,000 migrants that call Australia home every year. We're all sheep. Far too trusting of out political leaders and when we do change government its a case of more of the same. Im afraid Australia has become this politically passionless zombie like creature that threatens to sink us all in a mundane avalanche of political and business correctness. I see the passion and hope (even when completely wrong and silly) in Britain and America and its amazing. I wish we had such opportunities for renewal. Not the right or wrong of it but the raw passion. That's healthy. 

But unfortunately for the brexiteers and Trumpets I'm here to dispense my 2 cents and i will. Lesson here is better the devil you know. So be nice to me otherwise someone meaner and bader will come along. :)

I have read your posts and stavewinn's too and though i find you both articulate and passionate, i find that your argument about brexit lacks objective honesty and real facts. An example: If Germany and France and the rest of Europe were to just worry about its trade with Britain and make any deal to safe guard it ( like you suggest), then they would destroy the euro and the EU in the process. I think Trusk said it best... the EU and Britain will drink vinegar together cause there will be no winners. All will lose. You talk about a divorce. Great analogy. What happens in a divorce? Well they both walk away and get on with their lives. The EU is prepared too even though its the UK that wants the divorce. So why won't the UK? Be global Britain. Be competitive Britain. Rule the trade seas. But you just can't do it while having an advantage over the trade bloc you have spurred. 

To you see my point? 

Okay, Captain. I'll hold off on the ignore.

This is probably one of your most reasonable posts to date. You share your views of your own nation for the first time in this section, and give some explanation of why you have such an interest in ours. I still advise you though to show a little deference to those of us posting on UM that live here. The media have an agenda, both for and against Brexit, and to be honest you'll get a much more accurate picture here of life in Britain's towns and cities than you'll find elsewhere online.

UM is a pretty unique place as far as internet forums go, and there's a lot to be gained by putting more emphasis on reading rather than the typing. Something we should all pay heed to, myself included.

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On ‎20‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 0:12 AM, LV-426 said:

That's pretty much the way our system works if you want to cast a vote. Sure, you can agree and disagree with aspects of each party's manifesto. Ultimately though you have to align yourself one way or another when it comes to putting your cross in the box.

Would you care to elaborate on that?

Also, why not give us your views on Corbyn and Farron? You've utterly damned Theresa May. Forgetting the parties for the time being, do you think either of these men could actually lead Britain, in or out of the EU?

That might be how you view the system but you can also vote based on the promises of your local candidate, regardless of their party. And there's absolutely nothing to say you have to stick with one party for all time.

I don't particularly like any of the parties at the moment. I could tolerate Cameron. Didn't agree with him on everything but he seemed to have a decent handle on things and genuinely believed he was doing the right thing. I despise May. It's not about party, it's about actions.

As for the other two - Corbyn has some nice sounding ideas but is still too much of an idealist. I think he's learning to play the game but unless he also gets the media on side (or pulls a Trump on them) I don't know what chance he's got. Still, 3 years yet. Farron I admire for his honesty, openness and consistency. He knows his party has no chance of winning an election any time soon so he doesn't need to change his position to appeal to a wider base.

On ‎20‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 10:23 AM, stevewinn said:

Setton I believe as alluded to training to be or is actually a teacher? (could be getting mixed up with someone else on here) But if he is, that puts him in firmly in the Labour, Lib Dems or Green camp. - he'll naturally dislike the Tories its part of the course  at "teacher school" and the professions unions have had their run ins with Labour, so, Lib Dems, but they did backtrack on tuition fees. Setton will flip-flop between Labour and Lib Dems. :tu: but he's a Lib Dems man. evidence in a post above he liked the coalition Government Tory/Lib Dems. and he doesn't like the Tories, So, yes put money he's a lib dem man. :lol:

 

No, that's me. Or used to be. Spent three years as a teacher but I've left that now.

You still don't get it do you? I don't align with any party. I do dislike the current Tory government. That doesn't mean I dislike the Tories in general. As for it being part of the course, not really but when you spend a year reading up on current teaching theories, conducting your own research and leave at the end of it at pretty much the forefront of your field, only to start teaching and be told you can't use any of that because some journalist who's been put in charge of education wants to go back in time, will probably make you dislike that journalist. Whatever party he's from.

You're right about flip-flopping (as I said, I vote for the candidate, not the party), completely wrong about the parties. If you must know, I voted Tory in 2010 and Lib Dem in 2015. We've had the same labour candidate for a while who did nothing useful when in office and who I personally dislike. The Tory one made some good promises in 2010 and earned my vote. But he make any effort to follow through on them so 2015 was a protest vote.

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12 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

I'm i really wrong? Stevewinn... if you want to leave the single market then why do you want access as a de-facto member? Leaving the single market in reality is either talking on a soft brexit like Norway, where you are subjected to the same trade rules and responsibilities like fee's in order to have uninterrupted access to the trade bloc OR taking on a trade agreement with the EU like say Canada. May's speech was an ultimatum to the EU that she want's the same privileges as Norway without the fee's or subjected to EU trade and movement laws. And if she doesn't get it Britain will become troublesome and threaten the EU. That's May's speech in a nutshell. 'Give us what we want or we will break your windows.' Does that sound like a confident and well thought out plan? 

I want you to think about this stevewinn. A country like Britain that runs a trade deficit and has a lopsided budget, threatening the EU with a trade war. MORE outside imports for Britain further aggravating its balance of payments figures and collecting less corporate and business tax to stay competitive. Who is gonna make up the budget shortfall? The same people that voted brexit, that's who. 

Unless Trump gets involved and threatens the EU to play nice with the brexiteers and/or Le Pen wins the presidential elections in France, i can't honestly see how prime minister May's exit negotiations are going to deliver anything other than the same agreement that Canada, America or Australia currently has with the EU. And if that happens then the EU might as well just disintegrate. Even offering the UK a soft brexit option is generous in it self considering that the UK will be a future competitor for investment and trade. To give the UK more than that wouldn't be fair to the members that pay into the EU purse and follow its rules or to those that have signed trade deals with the EU like Australia, Canada and America that don't get a de-jour relationship like the UK is asking for. 

   

Captain you are missing the point and confusing yourself in the process as is evident in your very first sentence, when you say the UK wants to be a de-facto member, and member being the key word. the UK will no longer be a Member, - Norway is a member we will not be doing a Norway. - Understand what Theresa May said. We are leaving the Single Market. We will in no way be a de-facto member as you put it.

Has for the UK threatening the EU, Did you miss the part where the EU stated we'd have to pay £50Billion before they start to negotiate, and all the rhetoric coming from Brussels IE the UK must be punished to prevent others leaving, not based on sensible grounds or economic arguments but to simply prevent others from wanting to leave - the very fact the EU have to say or take such action is the EU admitting the EU Club is indeed in trouble when you have to punish countries for leaving to prevent others from doing the same. i guess its easier to punish and scare than to carry out any meaningful reform.

As for the UK threatening, again listen to Theresa Mays speech, We want to trade with the EU as openly as possible, as we want with any country in the world, will still be good neighbours with Europe in matters of security etc... But when David Cameron went to europe to re-negotiate or reform the EU Cameron had the door slammed in his face - the EU has since said, The four Freedoms of the EU are not up for negotiation, the four pillars of the EU being freedom of goods, people, services and capital over borders. - So having learnt the lesson from Cameron's failed negotiations and faced with the clear message none negotiable that only leaves the UK with three options, one simply ignore the referendum vote and cancel leaving, 2) EU-lite stay part of the single market and still adhere to the 4 pillars, and number 3) WE leave the EU totally. - number three is what the people voted for. Brexit. leaving the EU and number 3) is what Theresa May is going to deliver. 

Did you read my post numbered #15. and what WTO actually means for the UK and EU, the EU lose out. 80 to 100Billion trade deficit with the UK. try to spin it whatever way you want, but the UK would raise a net £7.4 Billion. the fact 90% of our current exports to the EU fall in the 0% to 4% tariff bracket. the pound has devalued by 15% i'll let you work it out. 

 

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8 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Captain you are missing the point and confusing yourself in the process as is evident in your very first sentence, when you say the UK wants to be a de-facto member, and member being the key word. the UK will no longer be a Member, - Norway is a member we will not be doing a Norway. - Understand what Theresa May said. We are leaving the Single Market. We will in no way be a de-facto member as you put it.

Has for the UK threatening the EU, Did you miss the part where the EU stated we'd have to pay £50Billion before they start to negotiate, and all the rhetoric coming from Brussels IE the UK must be punished to prevent others leaving, not based on sensible grounds or economic arguments but to simply prevent others from wanting to leave - the very fact the EU have to say or take such action is the EU admitting the EU Club is indeed in trouble when you have to punish countries for leaving to prevent others from doing the same. i guess its easier to punish and scare than to carry out any meaningful reform.

As for the UK threatening, again listen to Theresa Mays speech, We want to trade with the EU as openly as possible, as we want with any country in the world, will still be good neighbours with Europe in matters of security etc... But when David Cameron went to europe to re-negotiate or reform the EU Cameron had the door slammed in his face - the EU has since said, The four Freedoms of the EU are not up for negotiation, the four pillars of the EU being freedom of goods, people, services and capital over borders. - So having learnt the lesson from Cameron's failed negotiations and faced with the clear message none negotiable that only leaves the UK with three options, one simply ignore the referendum vote and cancel leaving, 2) EU-lite stay part of the single market and still adhere to the 4 pillars, and number 3) WE leave the EU totally. - number three is what the people voted for. Brexit. leaving the EU and number 3) is what Theresa May is going to deliver. 

Did you read my post numbered #15. and what WTO actually means for the UK and EU, the EU lose out. 80 to 100Billion trade deficit with the UK. try to spin it whatever way you want, but the UK would raise a net £7.4 Billion. the fact 90% of our current exports to the EU fall in the 0% to 4% tariff bracket. the pound has devalued by 15% i'll let you work it out. 

 

Shock horror. What other interpretation can you draw from the fact that the UK want's all the trade privileges it currently has BUT doesn't want to pay for them or be subjected to its laws. Sound's to me like a de-facto member.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the UK currently have obligations to the EU that need to be met? From the tone of your reply you would have thought that Merkel was holding a gun to the head of the UK. Paying your dues is far from punishment mate. It's a responsibility that should be met. 

No that's incorrect stevewinn... May want's the same trade privileges it currently enjoy's. Trade privileges that other country's that trade with the EU like America, Australia and South Korea don't enjoy. Britain want's a free trade deal and continued access for the British banking system. No other trade partners other than Norway and Switzerland have such an arrangement, and they only do cause they have agreed to respect EU laws and tip into the kitty. Something that May has emphatically said the UK won't under ANY deal. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887

Well i was waiting when you would get something right. Credit where credit is due. The only card's the UK has is security and militarily. But are they enough to in debt a troublesome neighbour with special trade privileges? Time will tell.

I have read ALL your posts and am aware of your WTO "ace in the hole." I have a question: If the UK has such a strong position then why doesn't it just trigger article 50 and walk away? I'm really looking forward for that answer. 

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4 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

Shock horror. What other interpretation can you draw from the fact that the UK want's all the trade privileges it currently has BUT doesn't want to pay for them or be subjected to its laws. Sound's to me like a de-facto member.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the UK currently have obligations to the EU that need to be met? From the tone of your reply you would have thought that Merkel was holding a gun to the head of the UK. Paying your dues is far from punishment mate. It's a responsibility that should be met. 

No that's incorrect stevewinn... May want's the same trade privileges it currently enjoy's. Trade privileges that other country's that trade with the EU like America, Australia and South Korea don't enjoy. Britain want's a free trade deal and continued access for the British banking system. No other trade partners other than Norway and Switzerland have such an arrangement, and they only do cause they have agreed to respect EU laws and tip into the kitty. Something that May has emphatically said the UK won't under ANY deal. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887

Well i was waiting when you would get something right. Credit where credit is due. The only card's the UK has is security and militarily. But are they enough to in debt a troublesome neighbour with special trade privileges? Time will tell.

I have read ALL your posts and am aware of your WTO "ace in the hole." I have a question: If the UK has such a strong position then why doesn't it just trigger article 50 and walk away? I'm really looking forward for that answer. 

I's your lack of comprehension genuine? we're leaving the EU, if we can get  trade deal where we don't charge them and they don't charge us great but what ever happens we're leaving simple as, what don't you understand?

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see bwlo

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20 hours ago, Setton said:

I could tolerate Cameron. Didn't agree with him on everything but he seemed to have a decent handle on things and genuinely believed he was doing the right thing. I despise May.

Whatever did he have a decent handle on? Overthrowing Gadaffi? Convincing everyone that it was so importnat to remain in the EU? being such good pals with Barry O? Installing as Chancellor his big chum and pal George Osborne, despite the latter having no experience or qualifications in the field of economics at all, but because he was a big pal of his at Eton? His Very Stern Words to Vladimir P, which really put Russia's Tyrant in his place? 

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 F

On 1/21/2017 at 3:20 AM, LV-426 said:

The media have an agenda, both for and against Brexit, and to be honest you'll get a much more accurate picture here of life in Britain's towns and cities than you'll find elsewhere online.

That seems to be the thing with Cap'n, he also seems to share the general media paranoia about Russia's Tyrant, because he relies for his information on the standard mainstream medal sources, but always insists that he knows better and that he knows is the Truth because it was in the media.

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1 minute ago, Captain Risky said:

I'll be sure to check out RT and Pravda next time...

 

so what sources of information do you rely on for the Truth about Russia's Tyrant and about the suicidal stupidity of the racist, hate-filled little Brits? 

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1 hour ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

 

Whatever did he have a decent handle on? Overthrowing Gadaffi? Convincing everyone that it was so importnat to remain in the EU? being such good pals with Barry O? Installing as Chancellor his big chum and pal George Osborne, despite the latter having no experience or qualifications in the field of economics at all, but because he was a big pal of his at Eton? His Very Stern Words to Vladimir P, which really put Russia's Tyrant in his place? 

All fair points. Perhaps I should have said he seemed to have a decent handle on most internal affairs. International ones definitely less so. And appointing ministers with no experience is hardly limited to Cameron. More's the pity.

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12 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

Shock horror. What other interpretation can you draw from the fact that the UK want's all the trade privileges it currently has BUT doesn't want to pay for them or be subjected to its laws. Sound's to me like a de-facto member.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the UK currently have obligations to the EU that need to be met? From the tone of your reply you would have thought that Merkel was holding a gun to the head of the UK. Paying your dues is far from punishment mate. It's a responsibility that should be met. 

No that's incorrect stevewinn... May want's the same trade privileges it currently enjoy's. Trade privileges that other country's that trade with the EU like America, Australia and South Korea don't enjoy. Britain want's a free trade deal and continued access for the British banking system. No other trade partners other than Norway and Switzerland have such an arrangement, and they only do cause they have agreed to respect EU laws and tip into the kitty. Something that May has emphatically said the UK won't under ANY deal. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887

Well i was waiting when you would get something right. Credit where credit is due. The only card's the UK has is security and militarily. But are they enough to in debt a troublesome neighbour with special trade privileges? Time will tell.

I have read ALL your posts and am aware of your WTO "ace in the hole." I have a question: If the UK has such a strong position then why doesn't it just trigger article 50 and walk away? I'm really looking forward for that answer. 

Captain risky you are still approaching this argument from the wrong side. The UK will be a non-EU country. you are fixated on "cherry picking" - tell me, Canada has signed a free trade deal with the EU, (yet to be ratified) But is Canada paying a membership fee, is Canada applying EU Laws to their entire economy, are 50% of Canadian laws going to be made in Brussels, is Canada accepting the free movement of people? - No is the answer - So is that Canada Cherry picking? or just doing what's in the interest of Canada. 

Yet again the privileges you talk about by being in the EU have been voted down by the British people and thus cease being considered a privilege and more a burden.

As for the UK's cards, being only military and security, you seem to be forgetting leaving the single market was the Ace card, That was how the EU was going to put the EU in the driving seat, we shot their fox with leaving the single market.  - the fact we are a net contributor to the EU budget, We are the EU's largest single market, we account for 14% of the EU economy. Please do tell for balance what's the impact going to be on the EU by the UK's leaving............

 

 

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16 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Captain risky you are still approaching this argument from the wrong side. The UK will be a non-EU country. you are fixated on "cherry picking" - tell me, Canada has signed a free trade deal with the EU, (yet to be ratified) But is Canada paying a membership fee, is Canada applying EU Laws to their entire economy, are 50% of Canadian laws going to be made in Brussels, is Canada accepting the free movement of people? - No is the answer - So is that Canada Cherry picking? or just doing what's in the interest of Canada. 

Yet again the privileges you talk about by being in the EU have been voted down by the British people and thus cease being considered a privilege and more a burden.

As for the UK's cards, being only military and security, you seem to be forgetting leaving the single market was the Ace card, That was how the EU was going to put the EU in the driving seat, we shot their fox with leaving the single market.  - the fact we are a net contributor to the EU budget, We are the EU's largest single market, we account for 14% of the EU economy. Please do tell for balance what's the impact going to be on the EU by the UK's leaving............

 

 

Well time will tell. I can find a great many self repeating contradictions in not just your arguements but also Theresa May's lack of a credible and coherent plan for Brexit. Everything May say's is simplistic and on a need to know basis. And for a complex disengagement that's not right.The lack of questioning from the press and citizens in your country should be viewed with concern and not celebration. What's also concerning is a Tory government fighting for Labour's rank and file. While Labour plays the non participant. 

Im starting to see the roots of populism tinged with an unhealthy dollop of jingoism in this Brexit drama, and it's worrying. Almost as if Britain is a war. Did I miss something? 

Edited by Captain Risky
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On 21/01/2017 at 10:27 PM, stevewinn said:

Captain you are missing the point and confusing yourself in the process as is evident in your very first sentence, when you say the UK wants to be a de-facto member, and member being the key word. the UK will no longer be a Member, - Norway is a member we will not be doing a Norway. - Understand what Theresa May said. We are leaving the Single Market. We will in no way be a de-facto member as you put it.

Has for the UK threatening the EU, Did you miss the part where the EU stated we'd have to pay £50Billion before they start to negotiate, and all the rhetoric coming from Brussels IE the UK must be punished to prevent others leaving, not based on sensible grounds or economic arguments but to simply prevent others from wanting to leave - the very fact the EU have to say or take such action is the EU admitting the EU Club is indeed in trouble when you have to punish countries for leaving to prevent others from doing the same. i guess its easier to punish and scare than to carry out any meaningful reform.

As for the UK threatening, again listen to Theresa Mays speech, We want to trade with the EU as openly as possible, as we want with any country in the world, will still be good neighbours with Europe in matters of security etc... But when David Cameron went to europe to re-negotiate or reform the EU Cameron had the door slammed in his face - the EU has since said, The four Freedoms of the EU are not up for negotiation, the four pillars of the EU being freedom of goods, people, services and capital over borders. - So having learnt the lesson from Cameron's failed negotiations and faced with the clear message none negotiable that only leaves the UK with three options, one simply ignore the referendum vote and cancel leaving, 2) EU-lite stay part of the single market and still adhere to the 4 pillars, and number 3) WE leave the EU totally. - number three is what the people voted for. Brexit. leaving the EU and number 3) is what Theresa May is going to deliver. 

Did you read my post numbered #15. and what WTO actually means for the UK and EU, the EU lose out. 80 to 100Billion trade deficit with the UK. try to spin it whatever way you want, but the UK would raise a net £7.4 Billion. the fact 90% of our current exports to the EU fall in the 0% to 4% tariff bracket. the pound has devalued by 15% i'll let you work it out. 

 

Sorry stevewinn for mixing up the quotes. I mean no disrespect not addressing your individual points but I think we've over done this like a million times mate. Had I'm bored. Both the EU and the UK will suffer equally. It's a shame it will end badly for the EU and the whole European project. I see many future wars in Europe. Less opportunities and especially so if France swings towards populism too. Which it looks likely it will. lets at least hope business doesn't needlessly suffer on both sides and doors remain open. Cheers

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12 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

Sorry stevewinn for mixing up the quotes. I mean no disrespect not addressing your individual points but I think we've over done this like a million times mate. Had I'm bored. Both the EU and the UK will suffer equally. It's a shame it will end badly for the EU and the whole European project. I see many future wars in Europe. Less opportunities and especially so if France swings towards populism too. Which it looks likely it will. lets at least hope business doesn't needlessly suffer on both sides and doors remain open. Cheers

I agree we've been over old ground many times but that's only because the same falsehoods are pushed even when they are proved wrong. Its also starting to become apparent the EU will endure far greater fallout consequences of Brexit if the EU goes down the route of cutting off their nose to spite their face in a desperate bid to prevent others leaving in a single minded approach.

As you know captain risky countries inside the EU are hamstrung by not being able to conduct trade deals. Individually EU countries need our trade because if they lose it, the EU rules make it more difficult for them to trade with countries outside of the EU. - and history tells us how problematic the EU is at conducting and concluding trade deals of any great worth, seven to ten years plus, have the EU got that much time to play with? bear in mind elections in France, Germany, Austria, Holland & Italy, all with political leaders promising their electorate economic growth, jobs etc if elected.

The way to look at it, a UK-EU trade deal would benefit both, but ultimately the UK's default position is WTO and anything else is a bonus. it would be embarrassing if at the end of the EU negotiation period the EU fails to agree a deal with the UK but the UK goes on and signs a trade agreement with any one of the countries the EU has so far failed to do so.IE: USA, India, China, Australia & New Zealand etc.. the political fallout and message it sends to the world would be damaging to the EU make no mistake about it.

 

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, stevewinn said:

I agree we've been over old ground many times but that's only because the same falsehoods are pushed even when they are proved wrong. Its also starting to become apparent the EU will endure far greater fallout consequences of Brexit if the EU goes down the route of cutting off their nose to spite their face in a desperate bid to prevent others leaving in a single minded approach.

As you know captain risky countries inside the EU are hamstrung by not being able to conduct trade deals. Individually EU countries need our trade because if they lose it, the EU rules make it more difficult for them to trade with countries outside of the EU. - and history tells us how problematic the EU is at conducting and concluding trade deals of any great worth, seven to ten years plus, have the EU got that much time to play with? bear in mind elections in France, Germany, Austria, Holland & Italy, all with political leaders promising their electorate economic growth, jobs etc if elected.

The way to look at it, a UK-EU trade deal would benefit both, but ultimately the UK's default position is WTO and anything else is a bonus. it would be embarrassing if at the end of the EU negotiation period the EU fails to agree a deal with the UK but the UK goes on and signs a trade agreement with any one of the countries the EU has so far failed to do so.IE: USA, India, China, Australia & New Zealand etc.. the political fallout and message it sends to the world would be damaging to the EU make no mistake about it.

 

 

 

 

BOLDED: Well, isn't that a falsehood in itself? The EU members have the most extensive trade deals bar anyone. They are negotiated collectively. You must know this. Stevewinn... it seem's at time's you're not very interested in discussion with me or anyone that shares a different view and more inclined to play propaganda minister. Addressing your replies to the readers of these pages instead of me. Surely you got carried away by stating that the EU cannot conduct trade deals? Or was it a unintentional mistake? 

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1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

BOLDED: Well, isn't that a falsehood in itself? The EU members have the most extensive trade deals bar anyone. They are negotiated collectively. You must know this. Stevewinn... it seem's at time's you're not very interested in discussion with me or anyone that shares a different view and more inclined to play propaganda minister. Addressing your replies to the readers of these pages instead of me. Surely you got carried away by stating that the EU cannot conduct trade deals? Or was it a unintentional mistake? 

.

eh what....?

re underlined --

when you are going to misrepresent someone and what they say - best not to bold a quote where you
plainly contradict yourself --

ahhhhhh I see now - you are so accustomed to using misrepresentation that you even misrepresent yourself --- :D....:innocent:

:wacko:

.

 

Edited by bee
to add underlining
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5 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

BOLDED: Well, isn't that a falsehood in itself? The EU members have the most extensive trade deals bar anyone. They are negotiated collectively. You must know this. Stevewinn... it seem's at time's you're not very interested in discussion with me or anyone that shares a different view and more inclined to play propaganda minister. Addressing your replies to the readers of these pages instead of me. Surely you got carried away by stating that the EU cannot conduct trade deals? Or was it a unintentional mistake? 

No its not a falsehood, I'll give an example, can the UK as a EU member sign a trade agreement without the EU's consent? No, can the UK sign a free trade agreement? No, and that's what im referring to when i said, "countries inside the EU are hamstrung by not being able to conduct trade deals. Individually EU countries need our trade because if they lose it, the EU rules make it more difficult for them to trade with countries outside of the EU. - and history tells us how problematic the EU is at conducting and concluding trade deals of any great worth"

As for replying to you i quote you directly; and give a lengthy reply giving you a considered opinion, and what do you do, read out of context, misquote and never expand on the points your trying to make.

out of curiosity can you just point to my post where you say i got carried away stating 'the EU cannot conduct trade deals'.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, stevewinn said:

 

No its not a falsehood, I'll give an example, can the UK as a EU member sign a trade agreement without the EU's consent? No, can the UK sign a free trade agreement? No, and that's what im referring to when i said, "countries inside the EU are hamstrung by not being able to conduct trade deals. Individually EU countries need our trade because if they lose it, the EU rules make it more difficult for them to trade with countries outside of the EU. - and history tells us how problematic the EU is at conducting and concluding trade deals of any great worth"

As for replying to you i quote you directly; and give a lengthy reply giving you a considered opinion, and what do you do, read out of context, misquote and never expand on the points your trying to make.

out of curiosity can you just point to my post where you say i got carried away stating 'the EU cannot conduct trade deals'.

 

 

 

You're back peddling but that's okay. My understanding is the EU signs trade deals collectively and does so by using the combined size of it's members markets to get a better deal. The UK will only be signing the same type of deals. So the perception that trade "boom" time bonanza ahead is not exactly accurate. I'm not sure who exactly the UK will be signing these deals with? America is in the process of Trumpism and American job's and investment at home, which is code for limiting imports and pushing American exports. China is notorious for signing export driven deals. With British manufacturing decimated by Thatcherism and the British banking system in decline now that the UK is leaving the EU, stevewinn... you'll just be opening your markets to other imports and limiting exports. Trade and investment with Europe will significantly slow down regardless of the outcome of brexit.

Of course we won't know for sure what impact brexit will have for the UK until Britain leaves and a clear picture emerges from the isolationist policies of Trump and what other country's will follow his leed. And i strongly suspect that China and India will also take on some of his policies as a knee jerk reaction. Maybe brexit will be the best thing to happen to the UK. No-one know's but with limiting world trade opportunities from here on in i can't see how this uncertainty can equate to faster growth if any for the UK.  

As a after thought... Australia is still pushing the TPP and NOW it want's China in the mix. I find that funny since the TPP was mean't to limit China's economic influence in the region. Australia and others desperately want's an EU type trading group. So did America before Trump. Global trade is fast being regionalised and with the UK leaving its region and trying to insert itself into other EU type trade bloc's one has to wonder if now is the right time to brexit, if at all.   

Edited by Captain Risky
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5 hours ago, bee said:

.

eh what....?

re underlined --

when you are going to misrepresent someone and what they say - best not to bold a quote where you
plainly contradict yourself --

ahhhhhh I see now - you are so accustomed to using misrepresentation that you even misrepresent yourself --- :D....:innocent:

:wacko:

.

 

Stevewinn made a confusing statement that bordered on a false statement and i asked for clarification. I also gave him the benefit of the doubt if you want to check. I'm a very moderate poster, you know. ;)

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15 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

Stevewinn made a confusing statement that bordered on a false statement and i asked for clarification. I also gave him the benefit of the doubt if you want to check. I'm a very moderate poster, you know. ;)

.

There's a poster called Captain Risky
Looses sleep over Britain's exit-ski
Obsessed he tosses and turns
European economic unity he yearns
Perhaps he should lay off the whiskey

:whistle:

.

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