Unusual Tournament Posted January 21, 2017 #1 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Neanderthals in a boat? Not such a far-fetched notion after all The first archeologists to find strange stone artifacts on Naxos were French researchers working on the Greek island in 1981. Naxos, the largest in a cluster known as the Cyclades that dot the Aegean Sea, is rich in the type of archeology many would recognize from classical exhibits in museums: 5,000-year-old, beautifully proportioned white marble figurines; 3,000-year-old, strikingly patterned pottery vessels. These scrappy pieces of rock looked much, much older. “The stone tools they were finding on the site looked nothing like the stone tools that had ever been found before on prehistoric sites in the Cycladic Islands,” said Tristan Carter, an archeologist at McMaster University in Hamilton. https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2016/12/27/neanderthals-in-a-boat-not-such-a-far-fetched-notion-after-all.html 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted January 21, 2017 Author #2 Share Posted January 21, 2017 I was led to believe that neanderthals were primitive and more ape like than humans. Maybe they were. Yet this discovery points to a less evolved culture but still capable of innovation. Cool. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post back to earth Posted January 21, 2017 Popular Post #3 Share Posted January 21, 2017 What lead you to believe that ??? Neanderthals were contemporary to Sapiens , Sapiens were just as 'primitive ' as Neanderthals were back then. And Neanderthals were around much longer than we have been . Maybe we got the ' boat ' idea from them ., and a lot of other stuff. They were more 'solid' - more body mass concentrated in the torso - which enabled cold temp adaptation . being thicker built doesnt make you 'thick' in comprehension and intelligence. Their average cranial capacity was around 300 cm3 bigger than today's average . 19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stiff Posted January 21, 2017 #4 Share Posted January 21, 2017 I remember reading years ago that if it was possible to plant a neanderthal into a crowd nowadays, most people wouldn't really notice. He would look a little odd but not that odd that it would draw too much attention. How true this is, I don't know. They may have come up with a completely different consensus by now. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted January 21, 2017 Author #5 Share Posted January 21, 2017 34 minutes ago, back to earth said: What lead you to believe that ??? Neanderthals were contemporary to Sapiens , Sapiens were just as 'primitive ' as Neanderthals were back then. And Neanderthals were around much longer than we have been . Maybe we got the ' boat ' idea from them ., and a lot of other stuff. They were more 'solid' - more body mass concentrated in the torso - which enabled cold temp adaptation . being thicker built doesnt make you 'thick' in comprehension and intelligence. Their average cranial capacity was around 300 cm3 bigger than today's average . ...well, they found tools on an Island that more than likely were made by neanderthals. They were more primitive than the tools of homo-sapians at the time. They lived side by side. How did they get to the Island? by boat. So they must have been boat builders too. So i do agree with you that they were NOT thick in comprehension. They were not mindless brut's. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted January 21, 2017 #6 Share Posted January 21, 2017 33 minutes ago, Stiff said: I remember reading years ago that if it was possible to plant a neanderthal into a crowd nowadays, most people wouldn't really notice. He would look a little odd but not that odd that it would draw too much attention. How true this is, I don't know. They may have come up with a completely different consensus by now. As far as I know, that still stands. I was frowned on for suggesting it in the early 70s though . I bought it up after I became suspicious of many different types of 'reconstructions' ; we can tell the shape of an earlobe from a half jawbone and some skull fragments ? ! Obviously artistic license is allowed ; but still, such license gives overall impressions anything from a ' brutish troglodyte' to a handsome cro-magnon . We have some pretty unusual looking sapiens around today . I could post pics of 'sapiens' that look like Neanderthals, but whats the point ? Of course some of us do, we are part Neanderthal . 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted January 21, 2017 #7 Share Posted January 21, 2017 30 minutes ago, Captain Risky said: ...well, they found tools on an Island that more than likely were made by neanderthals. They were more primitive than the tools of homo-sapians at the time. Ahhhh , so you meant more primitive tools . When you said " were primitive and more ape like than humans " I thought you meant .... well, that they were " were primitive and more ape like than humans ". 30 minutes ago, Captain Risky said: They lived side by side. How did they get to the Island? by boat. So they must have been boat builders too. Ummm .... you just said yourself that they lived side by side . If you mean Neanderthals and Sapiens lived side by side , well, then the Sapiens could have taken them to the island in their boat . 30 minutes ago, Captain Risky said: So i do agree with you that they were NOT thick in comprehension. They were not mindless brut's. There is a lot more evidence of their nature than that 'risky' boat building assumption . It would be better to find a Neanderthal settlement on an island where there was no living side by side with someone else as that someone else could just take them there . And there isnt a need to assert they were NOT mindless brutes ... as I dont think anyone was asserting that in the first place ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted January 21, 2017 #8 Share Posted January 21, 2017 It's also curious the most beautiful and most ancient cave art in the world occurs only in the Neanderthal heartland. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/06/120614-neanderthal-cave-paintings-spain-science-pike/ 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmt_sesh Posted January 21, 2017 #9 Share Posted January 21, 2017 3 hours ago, back to earth said: ... Ummm .... you just said yourself that they lived side by side . If you mean Neanderthals and Sapiens lived side by side , well, then the Sapiens could have taken them to the island in their boat . ... Of course that's how it worked. They brought along Neanderthals to be the rowers. In all seriousness, it's been years since my studies in physical anthropology, but as I recall the contexts that are identifiable as Neanderthal are absent ornamentation and other things that suggest ritual and elevated thought patterns. Homo sapiens sapiens, on the other hand, show evidence for ritualistic practices in burials and other contexts right from the start. This is one thing that had led researchers to posit that Neanderthals might not have been as cognitively developed as HSS. And there's also the fact that once HSS came on the scene, Neanderthals were no match for them and were supplanted, to the point of Neanderthal extinction. But I might be mistaken because I could swear I've worked with a few Neanderthals in my time. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmt_sesh Posted January 21, 2017 #10 Share Posted January 21, 2017 18 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said: It's also curious the most beautiful and most ancient cave art in the world occurs only in the Neanderthal heartland. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/06/120614-neanderthal-cave-paintings-spain-science-pike/ We had a fabulous exhibit on Lascaux a couple of years ago at the Field Museum. In preparation for working in the exhibit I did extensive research on Paleolithic Europe and discovered a real interest in it. In any case, current theory is that modern humans were arriving in Europe at least 45,000 years ago, so the cave paintings in El Castillo could just as easily have been painted by them (and not by Neanderthals). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted January 21, 2017 #11 Share Posted January 21, 2017 1 minute ago, kmt_sesh said: We had a fabulous exhibit on Lascaux a couple of years ago at the Field Museum. In preparation for working in the exhibit I did extensive research on Paleolithic Europe and discovered a real interest in it. In any case, current theory is that modern humans were arriving in Europe at least 45,000 years ago, so the cave paintings in El Castillo could just as easily have been painted by them (and not by Neanderthals). That still begs the question; why did they wait until they got to the Neanderthal heartland to become Picassos? Why does such a distinctive style only occur there and no where else? No, my money is on the Neanderthals. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted January 21, 2017 #12 Share Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, kmt_sesh said: Of course that's how it worked. They brought along Neanderthals to be the rowers. In all seriousness, it's been years since my studies in physical anthropology, but as I recall the contexts that are identifiable as Neanderthal are absent ornamentation and other things that suggest ritual and elevated thought patterns. Homo sapiens sapiens, on the other hand, show evidence for ritualistic practices in burials and other contexts right from the start. This is one thing that had led researchers to posit that Neanderthals might not have been as cognitively developed as HSS. And there's also the fact that once HSS came on the scene, Neanderthals were no match for them and were supplanted, to the point of Neanderthal extinction. But I might be mistaken because I could swear I've worked with a few Neanderthals in my time. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/09/160920090400.htm http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-19623929 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122466430 Understanding Neanderthals has been undergoing a process of evolution of it's own. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/04/140430133054.htm Edited January 21, 2017 by Hammerclaw 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted January 21, 2017 #13 Share Posted January 21, 2017 9 hours ago, Captain Risky said: I was led to believe that neanderthals were primitive and more ape like than humans. Maybe they were. Yet this discovery points to a less evolved culture but still capable of innovation. Cool. It is erroneous to say Neanderthals were more primitive and ape-like than humans. Mainly because Neanderthals are correctly classified as humans. That said, I've been very interested for over 40 years in the idea that H. Erectus (also human, by the way) was seafaring as well. I'm not suggesting a world-wide sea power like England of the past, or the Spanish Armada or anything. But I certainly don't think rafting would be beyond the abilities of either Neanderthal or Erectus. Harte 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter B Posted January 21, 2017 #14 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Wouldn't it be at least plausible that these islands were settled by inadvertent sea travel - people washed out to sea during floods or after tsunamis, and washing up on some island or other a day or two later? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LV-426 Posted January 21, 2017 #15 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Neanderthals in a boat? Is this the latest Samuel L. Jackson movie? Sorry... carry on! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted January 21, 2017 #16 Share Posted January 21, 2017 23 minutes ago, LV-426 said: Neanderthals in a boat? Is this the latest Samuel L. Jackson movie? Sorry... carry on! Only if Peter Jackson is producing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarocal Posted January 21, 2017 #17 Share Posted January 21, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Harte said: It is erroneous to say Neanderthals were more primitive and ape-like than humans. Mainly because Neanderthals are correctly classified as humans. That said, I've been very interested for over 40 years in the idea that H. Erectus (also human, by the way) was seafaring as well. I'm not suggesting a world-wide sea power like England of the past, or the Spanish Armada or anything. But I certainly don't think rafting would be beyond the abilities of either Neanderthal or Erectus. Harte Just to give Mario an idea to mull over. "Neanderthals on the European Continent were the scattered resource gathering or trade outpost populations of the Atlantis seafaring empire." Without actually looking at population dispersion maps for neanderthals, could this bolster the argument for Greenland=Atlantis? Apologies for the inability to refrain from stirring a pot when I see one... Edited January 21, 2017 by Jarocal Typo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldrover Posted January 21, 2017 #18 Share Posted January 21, 2017 5 hours ago, Harte said: That said, I've been very interested for over 40 years in the idea that H. Erectus (also human, by the way) was seafaring as well. I'm not suggesting a world-wide sea power like England of the past, or the Spanish Armada or anything. But I certainly don't think rafting would be beyond the abilities of either Neanderthal or Erectus. I've seen a documentary n which the idea of H. erectus rafted across parts of the Med. But, I wouldn't know about that type of thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted January 21, 2017 #19 Share Posted January 21, 2017 13 hours ago, kmt_sesh said: Of course that's how it worked. They brought along Neanderthals to be the rowers. In all seriousness, it's been years since my studies in physical anthropology, Under Radcliffe-Brown was it ? 13 hours ago, kmt_sesh said: but as I recall the contexts that are identifiable as Neanderthal are absent ornamentation and other things that suggest ritual and elevated thought patterns. Homo sapiens sapiens, on the other hand, show evidence for ritualistic practices in burials and other contexts right from the start. This is one thing that had led researchers to posit that Neanderthals might not have been as cognitively developed as HSS. And there's also the fact that once HSS came on the scene, I am not sure what that means , in an anthropological context . I suppose 5000 years ( estimate for cohabitation ) is a relatively short time . 13 hours ago, kmt_sesh said: Neanderthals were no match for them and were supplanted, to the point of Neanderthal extinction. But I might be mistaken because I could swear I've worked with a few Neanderthals in my time. Work with them .... take them on holidays to an island ..... sounds like we get on with them ok ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted January 21, 2017 #20 Share Posted January 21, 2017 9 hours ago, Harte said: It is erroneous to say Neanderthals were more primitive and ape-like than humans. Mainly because Neanderthals are correctly classified as humans. That said, I've been very interested for over 40 years in the idea that H. Erectus (also human, by the way) was seafaring as well. I'm not suggesting a world-wide sea power like England of the past, or the Spanish Armada or anything. But I certainly don't think rafting would be beyond the abilities of either Neanderthal or Erectus. Harte Especially 'accidental rafting' . I cant find the reference at the moment , but I have read where a section of river bank or delta can break off in a flood and float out to sea, with vegetation and animals on it . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted January 21, 2017 #21 Share Posted January 21, 2017 7 hours ago, LV-426 said: Neanderthals in a boat? Is this the latest Samuel L. Jackson movie? Sorry... carry on! Just look at the mess they made in the galley ! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz_Light_Year Posted January 21, 2017 #22 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Who's to say that they didn't just simply walk there at sometime in the past. The area could've been quite geologically different at the time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted January 21, 2017 #23 Share Posted January 21, 2017 Well, one assumes any investigation postulating what they did would have taken that into account ? Well, this one ( me ) assumed that . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Falukorv Posted January 21, 2017 #24 Share Posted January 21, 2017 The last Neanderthals disappeared with Atlantis.. Its a known fact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarocal Posted January 21, 2017 #25 Share Posted January 21, 2017 23 minutes ago, back to earth said: Especially 'accidental rafting' . I cant find the reference at the moment , but I have read where a section of river bank or delta can break off in a flood and float out to sea, with vegetation and animals on it . Greenland broke away from the ocean floor and floated north to its present locale... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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