Still Waters Posted January 27, 2017 #1 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Scientists in the US say they have at last managed to turn hydrogen into a state where it behaves like a metal. If that is true - and it is a controversial claim - it fulfils a more than 80-year quest to produce what many have said would be a wonder material. Theory suggests metallic hydrogen could be used to make zero-resistance electrical wiring and super-powerful rocket fuel, among many applications. Ranga Dias and Isaac Silvera are the Harvard researchers behind the work. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-38768683 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted January 27, 2017 #2 Share Posted January 27, 2017 I like this part of the article: Quote "Complete garbage," is how Eugene Gregoryanz from Edinburgh University described the research. "Like everybody else who works with hydrogen at high pressures, I am appalled by what is being published in Science." If this pans out this guy is going to be rather butthurt it sounds like. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aftermath Posted January 27, 2017 #3 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Fascinating... but won't really change the world unless the metallic hydrogen stays solid at room temperature. This is a good article too... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/hydrogen-metal-revolution-technology-space-rockets-superconductor-harvard-university-a7548221.html 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nnicolette Posted January 27, 2017 #4 Share Posted January 27, 2017 The summary says that it does remain solid at room temperature. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aftermath Posted January 27, 2017 #5 Share Posted January 27, 2017 16 minutes ago, Nnicolette said: The summary says that it does remain solid at room temperature. Not so fast... This is the quote: It has been suggested for example that metallic hydrogen might be metastable; that is - once made under extreme conditions it would maintain its state even when brought back up to ambient pressures and temperatures. And here: According to one theory, metallic hydrogen will be stable at room temperature – a prediction that Professor Silvera said was “very important”. It's still a theory and they are hopeful, but not a steadfast fact. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Four Winds Posted January 27, 2017 #6 Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Aftermath said: Not so fast... This is the quote: It has been suggested for example that metallic hydrogen might be metastable; that is - once made under extreme conditions it would maintain its state even when brought back up to ambient pressures and temperatures. And here: According to one theory, metallic hydrogen will be stable at room temperature – a prediction that Professor Silvera said was “very important”. It's still a theory and they are hopeful, but not a steadfast fact. I hope it is metastable. Edited January 27, 2017 by Four Winds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred_mc Posted January 28, 2017 #7 Share Posted January 28, 2017 (edited) I don't understand why it would be so difficult to see if it could remain during normal temperature and pressure. Couldn't they just have released the pressure after creating the metallic hydrogen to see if it still remained after that? Edited January 28, 2017 by fred_mc 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aerosol Posted January 28, 2017 #8 Share Posted January 28, 2017 (edited) I think they need to maintain the pressure while bringing the temperature back to room temperature. Edited January 28, 2017 by Aerosol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sepulchrave Posted January 28, 2017 #9 Share Posted January 28, 2017 6 hours ago, fred_mc said: I don't understand why it would be so difficult to see if it could remain during normal temperature and pressure. Couldn't they just have released the pressure after creating the metallic hydrogen to see if it still remained after that? Yes, they could have done that, and they probably did - as they need to take their diamond anvil cell apart after the experiment anyway. The pressure and temperature are completely separately controlled, so there is no difficulty in keeping the pressure while bringing the sample back to room temperature. It is possible that they cannot reduce the pressure while keeping the sample at low temperature, it depends on how their diamond anvil cell and cryostat are constructed. I am also very sceptical about these findings, although I am not an expert in high pressure studies. A preprint of the authors' paper is freely available on arXiv. I find it suspicious that the authors identify the metallic state by reflectivity measurements, and note that "it's about the reflectivity of an aluminum mirror"; however they also coated their diamonds with aluminum oxide to try and prevent hydrogen from seeping into the diamond. I wonder if a chemical change at high pressure (perhaps as simple as Al2O3 + 3H2 -> 2Al + 3H2O) occurs and they are actually measuring aluminum metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkHunter Posted January 28, 2017 #10 Share Posted January 28, 2017 6 hours ago, sepulchrave said: Yes, they could have done that, and they probably did - as they need to take their diamond anvil cell apart after the experiment anyway. The pressure and temperature are completely separately controlled, so there is no difficulty in keeping the pressure while bringing the sample back to room temperature. It is possible that they cannot reduce the pressure while keeping the sample at low temperature, it depends on how their diamond anvil cell and cryostat are constructed. I am also very sceptical about these findings, although I am not an expert in high pressure studies. A preprint of the authors' paper is freely available on arXiv. I find it suspicious that the authors identify the metallic state by reflectivity measurements, and note that "it's about the reflectivity of an aluminum mirror"; however they also coated their diamonds with aluminum oxide to try and prevent hydrogen from seeping into the diamond. I wonder if a chemical change at high pressure (perhaps as simple as Al2O3 + 3H2 -> 2Al + 3H2O) occurs and they are actually measuring aluminum metal. That chemical reaction wouldn't occur at the temperatures this experiment were done at. It seems from a very quick and short search, so I might be wrong, that all reactions were aluminum oxide is the reactant are endothermic reactions. Being endothermic reactions they are all going to need a certain amount of energy going into the reaction for it to occur and since they were taking away massive amounts of energy by keeping it around -270 C (or about 3 K) there just simply isn't enough energy present despite the insanely high pressure for the reaction to occur. If there are any impurities in the aluminum oxide coating and depending on what the impurities are, since I'm too lazy to check all possible reactions, it may still be possible for a chemical reaction to of occured but it seems unlikely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sepulchrave Posted January 29, 2017 #11 Share Posted January 29, 2017 3 hours ago, DarkHunter said: That chemical reaction wouldn't occur at the temperatures this experiment were done at. It seems from a very quick and short search, so I might be wrong, that all reactions were aluminum oxide is the reactant are endothermic reactions. Being endothermic reactions they are all going to need a certain amount of energy going into the reaction for it to occur and since they were taking away massive amounts of energy by keeping it around -270 C (or about 3 K) there just simply isn't enough energy present despite the insanely high pressure for the reaction to occur. If there are any impurities in the aluminum oxide coating and depending on what the impurities are, since I'm too lazy to check all possible reactions, it may still be possible for a chemical reaction to of occured but it seems unlikely. What you say is true for bulk reactions, and quite possibly also true in this situation. However I would not 100% rule out the possibility of a reaction under these conditions: Aluminum oxide is a bit tricky. Almost any chemist would say that Al2O3 is stable and that pure Al will oxidize very quickly. However a single-crystal Al2O3(0001) surface actually will naturally form a pure Al surface layer even under ambient conditions (this has been confirmed by several groups, a good study is here, the preprint is available for free here). This has also been confirmed for Al2O3 nanopowders (see here). The idea that a stable oxide of a highly reactive metal would spontaneously reduce at the surface under and O2-rich atmosphere is almost unthinkable, but there is lots of evidence suggesting that it does happen for Al2O3. I agree that at low temperatures a reaction is unlikely, but I would not rule out the possibility. Consider: Reducing the temperature to near absolute zero removes approximately 0.025 eV of free energy per atom. If each atom occupies a sphere of radius 1 angstrom, and the pressure causes this volume to decrease by 0.2%, then the PV work is 0.026 eV per atom. If the pressure reduces the volume by 1%, then the energy introduced to the system is (approximately) equivalent to heating the system to 1500 K. Yes, this analysis is really crude, but compressing the system will add energy. Eventually that energy will be removed, as they system is being continuously cooled, but it is possible that some of that energy would drive a phase change or chemical reaction. Although I am not an expert in high pressure work, I am involved in research in nanocatalysts. The appropriate catalysts can make reactions - that otherwise would basically never occur - happen quite quickly. The appropriate nanostructure can even make endothermic reactions occur, if the nanostructure geometry or crystal phase is also changing. Metal oxides nanoparticles widely investigated as catalysts for hydrogen generating/hydrogen fixing reactions. So again, I wouldn't claim that a reaction is definitely occurring in this situation, but I wouldn't rule it out either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWoo7 Posted January 29, 2017 #12 Share Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) On 1/27/2017 at 8:14 AM, OverSword said: I like this part of the article: If this pans out this guy is going to be rather butthurt it sounds like. Well I'm sure its in good hands. Like all the thoughts in here. Theory/SWAG prediction, nice:"According to one theory, metallic hydrogen will be stable at room temperature – a prediction that Professor Silvera said was “very important”. It's still a theory and they are hopeful, but not a steadfast fact. " Regarding tricky, thought Aluminum oxidized instantly. "I wouldn't claim that a reaction is definitely occurring in this situation, but I wouldn't rule it out either. " hmm COOL! "surface actually will naturally form a pure Al surface layer even under ambient conditions (this has been confirmed by several groups, a good study is here, the preprint is available for free here). This has also been confirmed for Al2O3 nanopowders (see here)." World change, so its zero resistance wiring and they've made miles of it already? So Aluminum is really crap?, they can push and it holds/contain 60,000v (Volts) currently, yes that was a pun. Hmmm hmm still testing,speculative etc. Article:"very big "if" - then more sizable quantities of metallic hydrogen need to be created. " Article also mentioned atoms closer together and it would be good for mass quantities of power transmission? THought that was the reason for Aluminum in the extreme voltage powerlines worked because the atoms are far far away from each other and that it was relatively free to make. Well, hopefully they can quickly make a boatload of powerline quickly then with hardly any cost. Then fire up some major voltage and see if it sags to the ground ! Even if that happens I suppose they can see if there's any problems with wrapping it around steel cables like Aluminum type we're using from the 60`s. But then of course it will corrode the main line HA! as in: galvanic or electrochemical corrosion / metals sticking together as in Aluminum to other Metals even weakening their structures. Ames is working in the real world with ? calcium , trying to get calcium down to nano grade for mixing with Aluminum, but every article out there is eons OLD and OBSOLETE, the internet is so great that way. Edited January 29, 2017 by MWoo7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWoo7 Posted January 29, 2017 #13 Share Posted January 29, 2017 Hmmm killed off that thread hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaha just as dead as can be~ % ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sepulchrave Posted January 30, 2017 #14 Share Posted January 30, 2017 18 hours ago, MWoo7 said: Hmmm killed off that thread hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaha just as dead as can be~ % ) Well, I had a lot of trouble reading your previous post... wasn't sure whether you were asking questions or what. I suppose you were, here goes: On 2017-01-29 at 9:16 AM, MWoo7 said: Regarding tricky, thought Aluminum oxidized instantly. It does; but the oxide layer is several nanometres thick (at least), and the very top few layers will - in some situations at least - revert back to metallic aluminum. It is not 100% whether this will happen in all situations or just in particular crystal facets or phases of aluminum oxide. On 2017-01-29 at 9:16 AM, MWoo7 said: World change, so its zero resistance wiring and they've made miles of it already? Superconductive wires must be kept under liquid nitrogen or even liquid helium. Metallic hydrogen has not been made into anything yet. I am not aware of any superconductive wires in use outside of scientific facilities. On 2017-01-29 at 9:16 AM, MWoo7 said: So Aluminum is really crap?, they can push and it holds/contain 60,000v (Volts) currently, yes that was a pun. I don't know what you mean by ``crap''. Aluminum is a useful, lightweight metal. It is a fairly lousy superconductor. The surface oxidation and the possible top-surface metallic layer are not relevant for most applications except possibly some forms of catalysis. On 2017-01-29 at 9:16 AM, MWoo7 said: Article also mentioned atoms closer together and it would be good for mass quantities of power transmission? THought that was the reason for Aluminum in the extreme voltage powerlines worked because the atoms are far far away from each other and that it was relatively free to make. Having atoms close together is important for BCS-type superconductors. The tighter the atoms are packed, the higher the vibrational frequency and consequently the higher the superconducting temperature. Aluminum has a rather low superconducting temperature. As far as I know it is copper that is used to carry electricity in the high voltage power lines, aluminum is just used as a protective sheath. (But I could be wrong; I don't know much about electrical infrastructure.) On 2017-01-29 at 9:16 AM, MWoo7 said: Ames is working in the real world with ? calcium , trying to get calcium down to nano grade for mixing with Aluminum, but every article out there is eons OLD and OBSOLETE, the internet is so great that way. "Ames"... you mean Ames laboratory? They are trying to make a calcium/aluminum nanocomposite? Never heard of it... What is the area of application? What search engine are you using? If you can't find new articles on the subject using scholar.google.com, then it probably isn't an area of active research anymore. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Unicorn Posted January 30, 2017 #15 Share Posted January 30, 2017 On 1/27/2017 at 4:52 PM, Aftermath said: Not so fast... This is the quote: It has been suggested for example that metallic hydrogen might be metastable; that is - once made under extreme conditions it would maintain its state even when brought back up to ambient pressures and temperatures. And here: According to one theory, metallic hydrogen will be stable at room temperature – a prediction that Professor Silvera said was “very important”. It's still a theory and they are hopeful, but not a steadfast fact. I think if a new atomic lattice was produced which they said happened, it is likely to hold metallic features, just as a diamond doesn't revert back to carbon after high pressure. Being a mystic that has read many teachings along the alchemy theories and other things. I personally believe that the water molecule is the source of all creation and that the fire in water actually alludes to hydrogen. I remember in some old alchemy writings that I read said that a substance in water even produced metal in the planets. I find this a doubly fascinating discovery for science! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MWoo7 Posted January 30, 2017 #16 Share Posted January 30, 2017 (edited) Super sepulchrave much appreciated! Wow, firstly I want to thank you for not tearing in to me and actually looking at my text. I think somewhere there was mention of powerlines, I was thinking well that would be interesting, would be cool if they topped what the kids at Ames were trying a while back. I was just making light of things and basically inquiring and its quite clear now that the superconducting area is so so much different than the basics of electricity and metals in the grid today. Premium, thank you thank you! most excellent and thanks for your time. "revert back to metallic aluminum. It is not 100% whether this will happen in all situations or just in particular crystal facets or phases of aluminum oxide. " I'm certainly no expert or know anything of that field but was very curious. "Superconductive wires must be kept under liquid nitrogen... I am not aware of any superconductive wires in use outside of scientific facilities." Me either couldn't find anything and very very little on what Ames was working on a while back. HA! like this, re: techie term crap"I don't know what you mean by ``crap''. Aluminum is a useful, lightweight metal. It is a fairly lousy superconductor. The surface oxidation and the possible top-surface metallic layer are not relevant for most applications" Yeah rapid oxide but I'd thought they were figuring out how to work with it, like it when a waste is turned around and used in industries, paint colours, deisel, etc. Thank you thank you for this:"The tighter the atoms are packed, the higher the vibrational frequency and consequently the higher the superconducting temperature. " Why I'd mentioned sure make some miles long and fire the juice through it, we have STEEL cores today so they don't sag to the ground when voltage is fired through. Yes Ames laboratory, and any articles found on their calcium and aluminum work were excessively dated. Edited January 30, 2017 by MWoo7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeder Posted February 23, 2017 #17 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Update: Quote Only piece of 'revolutionary' metallic hydrogen in the world DISAPPEARS just weeks after it was first created Creation of metallic hydrogen had been heralded as a major breakthrough But the Harvard scientists who created it say it has now gone missing The sample could have been lost inside the machinery that kept it stable Or it could have been destroyed after turning to a gas at room temperature Some claim the material was never created by the researchers in the first place Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4249462/World-s-piece-revolutionary-metal-goes-missing.html#ixzz4ZT9cuaa1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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