Clairvoyants

[docyabut2]

My daughters have been going to a Clairvoyant since my husband died  seeking answers,  I can believe they see the past, the present and the contact of spirits , but  of the future ? Doesn't that mean there is no free will and  our lives are  all ready planned out for us,  so why fight it ?

[papageorge1]

1 minute ago, docyabut2 said:

My daughters have been going to a Clairvoyant since my husband died  seeking answers,  I can believe they see the past, the present and the contact of spirits , but  of the future ? Doesn't that mean there is no free will and  our lives are  all ready planned out for us,  so why fight it ?

I have struggled with that question of future knowledge and free will too. Here's one thought: Because people can see the future does not preclude that free will choices produced that future.

Also, I think reality is somehow more complex than three-dimensions and linear time thinking can hold. Even things I can't conceive of like alternate timelines, and other mind-bending concepts are probably involved. I rest knowing reality is not something I can grasp with my finite mind and don't overly fret about it.

[XenoFish]

15 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

My daughters have been going to a Clairvoyant since my husband died  seeking answers,  I can believe they see the past, the present and the contact of spirits , but  of the future ? Doesn't that mean there is no free will and  our lives are  all ready planned out for us,  so why fight it ?

Hope she isn't paying for this.

[docyabut2]

27 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Hope she isn't paying for this.

big time

[XenoFish]

11 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

big time

So let me get this straight. Your daughter is paying money for some scam artist to play a guessing game?

[docyabut2]

35 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

So let me get this straight. Your daughter is paying money for some scam artist to play a guessing game?

Well the thing is so much of what the Clairvoyant is saying is true.

[XenoFish]

31 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Well the thing is so much of what the Clairvoyant is saying is true.

All I want to know is if she's forking over cash for it. I've got my own opinions of supposed 'psychics'. 

[eight bits]

docyabut

You need to consider very seriously that your daughters are the victims of fraud.

It will not do to say,

Quote

Well the thing is so much of what the Clairvoyant is saying is true.

Just as there are ways to create the illusion that a performer has pulled a rabbit out of a hat, there are ways to create the illusion of "saying much that is true." This is especially easy when the spectator is emotionally wounded by the loss of a loved one.

As to the topical question, no, even perfect predictably of future behavior is compatible with many notions of "free will." Rational well-informed people, for example, are predictable by anybody who has the same information and knows the preferences of the person whose behavior is being forecast.

In a choice between consuming chocolate and licorice, I will choose the chocolate 100% of the time. This is an expression of my free will, not evidence that I have none.

[XenoFish]

I'm just going to leave this here for you (or anyone else) to read Docyabut2.

http://skepdic.com/psychic.html

Edited January 28, 2017 by XenoFish

[back to earth]

23 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

My daughters have been going to a Clairvoyant since my husband died  seeking answers,  I can believe they see the past, the present and the contact of spirits , but  of the future ? Doesn't that mean there is no free will and  our lives are  all ready planned out for us,  so why fight it ?

Because it is very traumatic to lose one's father . I know, it happened to me as a teen .   People will clutch at any hope when severely emotionally traumatised . 

They will even pay out a lot of money and believe suggestions and other obviously fished out info to try and help relieve the pain.  So much so that they cannot even see the horrible scam that is being perpetuated on them . 

[back to earth]

Regards future predicting and free will ... I have read some great excuses on a tarot site 

My fav was ;    'At the time of the reading the prediction was correct for the future that was playing out at the time of that reading  .....  but since then , the future  has changed .'

 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

23 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

My daughters have been going to a Clairvoyant since my husband died  seeking answers,  I can believe they see the past, the present and the contact of spirits , but  of the future ? Doesn't that mean there is no free will and  our lives are  all ready planned out for us,  so why fight it ?

What a fascinating topic and question. A possibility of free will, if our future is planned out?   Interesting. *strokes her chin*

I often have come across various works that say that the future is not definite, and that it can fork out in many directions, depending on the action taken in the present. I have done Tarot cars, ( and recently bought some again ) and from what I have learned, is not you can't fight it, but learn from it to change it for a better one. 

Anyways, it's like how Doc Brown describes it in one of the "Back to the Future" movies, ( I think it was in the second one ) but there are various timelines, which becomes after a particular action is done. There is a Star Trek: TNG episode I remember watching that showed one character switching from various timelines, because of what one did different in a situation. I think the show "Sliders" pretty much showed that on a more societal level. 

So, for me, I think changing the future is easy, so I think we still have free will. But, can we change the past? What if we could find a way to travel into the past and change one thing, would we know it? 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

49 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Regards future predicting and free will ... I have read some great excuses on a tarot site 

My fav was ;    'At the time of the reading the prediction was correct for the future that was playing out at the time of that reading  .....  but since then , the future  has changed .'

 

I have been told in the past, that I am not doing the Tarot card readings properly. But, yet those I have done them to, have come back and said it came true. 

Here's the thing with my readings in the past. Judging from what I read in the book, it's all about understanding your present, past, and future, and the environment around the person. It was also a way of 'guiding', so in effect, I saw the Tarot readings as a guide in what to do, not what they see right off the bat. 

I agree with you and Xeno, I too would have a bit wavy on those that have shops. I would think, just once and for the fun of it, to see. Even if it comes true, it could all be through one's perception. 

Having lost my dad, a brother, and friends, (and recently a cat), I too would like to least have the comfort of knowing and communicating, but we're dealing with something we don't know for sure. I feel, one needs to step back from the show and consider it a bit. 

[docyabut2]

Quote

I don't know guys but when I first met my husband, I had a sense I knew him and that this would go on for a long dreading time, of which it did. , all tough I loved him dearly  So may be our lives are planned out, and the free will  is only how we react  to the many  events in our lives   

 

Edited January 29, 2017 by docyabut2

[XenoFish]

20 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

What a fascinating topic and question. A possibility of free will, if our future is planned out?   Interesting. *strokes her chin*

I often have come across various works that say that the future is not definite, and that it can fork out in many directions, depending on the action taken in the present. I have done Tarot cars, ( and recently bought some again ) and from what I have learned, is not you can't fight it, but learn from it to change it for a better one. 

Anyways, it's like how Doc Brown describes it in one of the "Back to the Future" movies, ( I think it was in the second one ) but there are various timelines, which becomes after a particular action is done. There is a Star Trek: TNG episode I remember watching that showed one character switching from various timelines, because of what one did different in a situation. I think the show "Sliders" pretty much showed that on a more societal level. 

So, for me, I think changing the future is easy, so I think we still have free will. But, can we change the past? What if we could find a way to travel into the past and change one thing, would we know it? Answer to this is no. We wouldn't know. We couldn't tell cause to effect or effect to cause either way. We wouldn't even know we needed to change the past at all.

A pattern only develops in hindsight. As to the future it's a constant roll of the dice, even if you set things in motions that might 'manifest' as a future event. Those are still up to chance. Then we have the problem with self-fulfilling actions, in which we unconsciously create a future event exactly or almost exactly as we desire. However no one can see tomorrow. We might have some idea of what it could hold for us, we do not know fore certain that anything we 'foresee' will happen.

In the case of losing a loved one, no amount of magick can bring them back. I know this. No one can communicate with the deceased either. And even if they could there is no guarantee that is it the person you believe it to be. 

In the case of free will, you have it to the point where your thoughts, emotions, and actions become a thing of habit. Then it becomes a natural reaction to the world around you. 

[back to earth]

4 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

What a fascinating topic and question. A possibility of free will, if our future is planned out?   Interesting. *strokes her chin*

I often have come across various works that say that the future is not definite, and that it can fork out in many directions, depending on the action taken in the present. I have done Tarot cars, ( and recently bought some again ) and from what I have learned, is not you can't fight it, but learn from it to change it for a better one. 

Anyways, it's like how Doc Brown describes it in one of the "Back to the Future" movies, ( I think it was in the second one ) but there are various timelines, which becomes after a particular action is done. There is a Star Trek: TNG episode I remember watching that showed one character switching from various timelines, because of what one did different in a situation. I think the show "Sliders" pretty much showed that on a more societal level. 

So, for me, I think changing the future is easy, so I think we still have free will. But, can we change the past? What if we could find a way to travel into the past and change one thing, would we know it? 

 

Time for a Sufi story .    

Mustafa went to a fortune teller  and was told that death was waiting for him and would call upon him soon. 

A few days later, in the marketplace Mustafa saw death ,  he was in his black robe and carried his sickle and was casually looking at the wares , the man hid and watched from a distance ... no one else seemed to be able to see him. Then , death looked up , as if staring right at him,   terrified he fled, raced home , gathered up some belongings and money , took his horse and galloped to the nearest port, he left the horse , took passage on a boat under another  name , far down river.  Then he  joined a camel train and  cut back diagonally  travelling far across the desert , eventually stopping in far Samarkand . 

After a few days he started to relax and ventured out into the marketplace . All of a sudden a hand was placed on his shoulder, he turned to find death smiling at him ;   "  Here you are Mustafa !   I was wondering why I saw you in your home town 2 weeks ago when I knew I had an appointment with you Samarkand ! "

[back to earth]

4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

A pattern only develops in hindsight. As to the future it's a constant roll of the dice, even if you set things in motions that might 'manifest' as a future event. Those are still up to chance. Then we have the problem with self-fulfilling actions, in which we unconsciously create a future event exactly or almost exactly as we desire. However no one can see tomorrow. We might have some idea of what it could hold for us, we do not know fore certain that anything we 'foresee' will happen.

In the case of losing a loved one, no amount of magick can bring them back. I know this. No one can communicate with the deceased either. And even if they could there is no guarantee that is it the person you believe it to be. 

In the case of free will, you have it to the point where your thoughts, emotions, and actions become a thing of habit. Then it becomes a natural reaction to the world around you. 

 

Have you ever 'played'     ' Reverse George '   ?   *      

I did once ......   Ooooooo   the 'repercussions '   !  

 

 

* 

 

 

[+Hammerclaw]

If people could really talk to the dead, we'd know where Jimmy Hoffa's body is, and that airliner that disappeared.

[eight bits]

The question of free will is properly undecidable, since if we didn't have it, then whatever we think about it, we would be destined to think that, whatever we do think. If you think about that long enough, then you will get an ice cream headache, and so you will stop thinking about it.

Free will is one of the many ideas plagued by the defect of self-reference. We cannot penetrate the contradiction, we can only soldier on as best we can. Fortunately, we can get along very well in the world not knowing whether or not we "really" have "free will."

There is another current thread over on the sheltered workshop religion board here at UM about Godel. His great contribution to mathematics was to find a self-reference in something mathematics cannot get along at all without (the idea of a "function"). It's not encouraging that he went insane and killed himself.

Stubbs

Quote

I have been told in the past, that I am not doing the Tarot card readings properly.

That's like being told that Wikipedia disagrees with you. Deal on; you must be on the right track.

Hammer

Curious. The entire Christian religion is based on talking with dead people. I apppreciate that your own preferred brand is outside the apostolic succession, and so you advocate talking with only one dead person.

It only takes one.

[ChrLzs]

On ‎2017‎-‎01‎-‎28 at 11:20 AM, docyabut2 said:

Quote

Hope she isn't paying for this.

big time

This makes me cringe.  You and your daughters are vulnerable, and to a good cold-reader (with perhaps some 'warm' or 'hot' reading now thrown in as she gets to know you all) you would be easy prey.

If it was me, I'd be surreptitiously recording the sessions and bringing them back here so we can point out all the techniques.  But at the very least, learn about the tricks that 'readers' use.  This guy is a little religious, but don't hold that against him as he covers the topic very well in these 2 blog posts:

https://thebryandrakeshow.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/exposing-mediums-and-psychics/

https://thebryandrakeshow.wordpress.com/2012/07/03/exposing-psychics-and-mediums-hot-reading/

[Davros of Skaro]

Docy

You should show your daughter this thread.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

13 hours ago, XenoFish said:

A pattern only develops in hindsight. As to the future it's a constant roll of the dice, even if you set things in motions that might 'manifest' as a future event. Those are still up to chance. Then we have the problem with self-fulfilling actions, in which we unconsciously create a future event exactly or almost exactly as we desire. However no one can see tomorrow. We might have some idea of what it could hold for us, we do not know fore certain that anything we 'foresee' will happen.

I think this pretty much gets deeper into what I said. I wouldn't think we can be frozen into doing anything, once given the glimpse of our future. Considering, we have the ability to even make one little move different to the move made that made the original future we peeked at. In a sense, this gives me my own personal answer, or the deep question of why is it that visions of our future, and/or visions and stuff of our passed loved ones are only in various static and fuzzy ways? So, it's questionable and we don't know for sure. I don't think we are allowed to know for sure, because that could cause a whole lot of problems the physical human mind cannot comprehend. In my opinion, of course.  

Quote

In the case of losing a loved one, no amount of magick can bring them back. I know this. No one can communicate with the deceased either. And even if they could there is no guarantee that is it the person you believe it to be. 

Exactly. This makes me wonder all the time. I feel, one has to step back in observe it for what it could be. 

Quote

In the case of free will, you have it to the point where your thoughts, emotions, and actions become a thing of habit. Then it becomes a natural reaction to the world around you. 

I agree with this. 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

9 hours ago, back to earth said:

 

Time for a Sufi story .    

Mustafa went to a fortune teller  and was told that death was waiting for him and would call upon him soon. 

A few days later, in the marketplace Mustafa saw death ,  he was in his black robe and carried his sickle and was casually looking at the wares , the man hid and watched from a distance ... no one else seemed to be able to see him. Then , death looked up , as if staring right at him,   terrified he fled, raced home , gathered up some belongings and money , took his horse and galloped to the nearest port, he left the horse , took passage on a boat under another  name , far down river.  Then he  joined a camel train and  cut back diagonally  travelling far across the desert , eventually stopping in far Samarkand . 

After a few days he started to relax and ventured out into the marketplace . All of a sudden a hand was placed on his shoulder, he turned to find death smiling at him ;   "  Here you are Mustafa !   I was wondering why I saw you in your home town 2 weeks ago when I knew I had an appointment with you Samarkand ! "

I find this enlightening. I have seen in various 'thoughts' when it comes to various stories dealing with time travel and those traveling to go back to save them, that what has happened eventually will happen, no matter what you do. It almost seems to me, that the past is unchangeable in other thought ways. 

[Stubbly_Dooright]

8 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

If people could really talk to the dead, we'd know where Jimmy Hoffa's body is, and that airliner that disappeared.

Exactly!   There are some priorities that need to take precedence here.  

Seriously though, what if the dead more know than what we do and for a good reason. *shrugs* Maybe mysteries are good for a starting point in getting our minds working to work it out? Though, I think there are things that are more complicated for the currantly living at the moment. I wonder at why we have these mysteries and how is it, we haven't figured them out. 

I remember someone I knew who kind of joked that Hoffa more than likely because fast food burgers or the like during the end of his times, and really the ocean is a big big place to look. 

[+Hammerclaw]

Just now, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Exactly!   There are some priorities that need to take precedence here.  

Seriously though, what if the dead more know than what we do and for a good reason. *shrugs* Maybe mysteries are good for a starting point in getting our minds working to work it out? Though, I think there are things that are more complicated for the currantly living at the moment. I wonder at why we have these mysteries and how is it, we haven't figured them out. 

I remember someone I knew who kind of joked that Hoffa more than likely because fast food burgers or the like during the end of his times, and really the ocean is a big big place to look. 

I think Jimmy may be "sleeping with the fishes" too.