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Refugees/Citizens of Muslim Countries Barred


Claire.

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9 minutes ago, aztek said:

another paranoid piece from Washington backed media.

What's paranoid is the travel ban itself.

It's still based on flawed data. Any risk analysis will tell you that right-wing extremists pose a bigger threat to US security than people from those six countries do. No one from any of those countries has carried out a major terrorist attack here. DHS even issued a report stating that the affected countries were rarely implicated in US-based terrorism.

Furthermore, if the White House is going to cite 300 terrorism-related investigations as rationale (in whole or in part), they should provide information on what countries those under investigation are from as evidence

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2 minutes ago, Claire. said:

What's paranoid is the travel ban itself.

It's still based on flawed data. Any risk analysis will tell you that right-wing extremists pose a bigger threat to US security than people from those six countries do. No one from any of those countries has carried out a major terrorist attack here. DHS even issued a report stating that the affected countries were rarely implicated in US-based terrorism.

Furthermore, if the White House is going to cite 300 terrorism-related investigations as rationale (in whole or in part), they should provide information on what countries those under investigation are from as evidence

lol, no, so far based on real events i only see a real threat from left wing. 

flawed data?? says who?

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Trump’s Executive Order Mandates Government Reports on Honor Killings Committed by Migrants

President Donald Trump’s executive order halting the importation of refugees from six terror-exporting countries also includes a section requiring the government to publicly release information on crimes committed by foreign nationals, including honor killings of women.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/03/06/trumps-executive-order-mandates-government-reports-on-honor-killings-committed-by-migrants/

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1 minute ago, Sweetpumper said:

Trump’s Executive Order Mandates Government Reports on Honor Killings Committed by Migrants

President Donald Trump’s executive order halting the importation of refugees from six terror-exporting countries also includes a section requiring the government to publicly release information on crimes committed by foreign nationals, including honor killings of women.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/03/06/trumps-executive-order-mandates-government-reports-on-honor-killings-committed-by-migrants/

Sounds like a great way to foment hate. 

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1 minute ago, Sweetpumper said:

Trump’s Executive Order Mandates Government Reports on Honor Killings Committed by Migrants

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/03/06/trumps-executive-order-mandates-government-reports-on-honor-killings-committed-by-migrants/

Smart. It's 2017 - the barbarism of some ancient religions has worn thin.

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Just now, Farmer77 said:

Sounds like a great way to foment hate. 

Hate is putting bullets in your daughters skull for listening to Justin Bieber.

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Just now, Sweetpumper said:

Hate is putting bullets in your daughters skull for listening to Justin Bieber.

Don't deny that at all. 

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13 minutes ago, Claire. said:

The Department of Homeland Security {and others).

lol, yes, they do say it,  that is why new EO,  to  perform a global, country-by-country review of the identity and security information that each country provides to the U.S. government to support U.S. visa and other immigration benefit determinations,

so data is less flawed.

Skinner: DHS ID verification process flawed without biometrics.  thus retina scans

seems like right thing to do. to address the flawed data issue,

Edited by aztek
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2 minutes ago, aztek said:

lol, yes, they do say it,  that is why new EO,  to  perform a global, country-by-country review of the identity and security information that each country provides to the U.S. government to support U.S. visa and other immigration benefit determinations,

so data is less flawed.

That's a whole other set of data. The data I am referring to are the acts of US-based terrorism committed by immigrants from those six countries.

As for what you call paranoia on the part of 'Washington-backed media' (whatever that means), another point you should be aware of is this:

During the campaign Trump called for a “total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States.” After the election, former New York City Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani said: “So when [Trump] first announced it, he said, ‘Muslim ban.’ He called me up. He said, ‘Put a commission together. Show me the right way to do it legally.’ ”

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4 minutes ago, Claire. said:

 The data I am referring to are the acts of US-based terrorism committed by immigrants from those six countries.

 

in other words, absolutely irrelevant data for individual  vetting purposes.

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Could this be about taking preventive measures before a terrorist attack from one of those countries actually takes action to kill us?

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Just now, aztek said:

in other words, absolutely irrelevant data for individual  vetting purposes.

In other words, absolutely relevant data to dispute the need to implement a ban that targets those six specific countries.

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5 hours ago, Sweetpumper said:

You're actually going to cite articles by someone who has been found guilty of libel and denounced by the UN? For anyone else, that would be a new low. For you, it's only a new middle.

5 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

 Executive Order Protecting The Nation From Foreign Terrorist Entry Into The United States

Here's the new executive order. Sounds like they cleared up much of what got the previous ban knocked down by the courts and have added a 10 day time table to roll it out rather than just springing it on everyone. 

Wait, is this what personal growth looks like? Is the giant wotsit learning to take criticism without throwing a strop??

5 hours ago, Pop It and Shove It said:

Examples please. Find me fake news pieces from the Guardian, CNN, MSNBC and other major outlets. 

No no no, see, fake news is the stuff with reliable sources, witnesses and expert advice. Real news is the stuff people make up off the top of their head. You know it's real because of how loud they talk.

 

31 minutes ago, Dark_Grey said:

Smart. It's 2017 - the barbarism of some ancient religions has worn thin.

Good. I assume they'll also be as proactive cracking down on Christians sending girls abroad for FGM?

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15 minutes ago, .ZZ. said:

Could this be about taking preventive measures before a terrorist attack from one of those countries actually takes action to kill us?

If it were, I'm not sure that the travel ban would be the way to go about it. I mean yeah sure perform a global review and whatever else needs to be done, but the fact of the matter is that the only way to prevent a terror attack is to know about it beforehand. We already have a rigorous vetting program in place, but what we don't have are detailed intelligence profiles, and that is our biggest weakness.

It's a challenge because that kind of intelligence gathering requires cooperation and the sharing of information on a global scale. But even if intelligence gathering efforts were rigorous, unless someone intent on committing an act of terror caused enough of a ripple to be noticed, we would have no way of knowing that he/she was a potential threat. In other words, if they don't show up on anyone's radar, they're as good as cleared to go.

 

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On 2/13/2017 at 10:20 PM, Yamato said:

And we also have to decide what is constitutional.   Donald Trump's travel ban fails on all counts.  It fails on statutory grounds, it fails on constitutional grounds, it fails on common sense grounds.   It's simply laughable to even consider it to be adequate at achieving its purpose.  Syria is an unmitigated disaster and a horrible preventable tragedy.   One of the best things we can do is donate to charity but another thing we can do is not ignore the interventionist foreign policy causing the instability and resentment against us.   I'd rather prevent the nightmare than to keep causing it and civilly treating it with bandaids after the fact.

I agree that people who come from a war zone that we perpetrate aren't going to like us very much for that.  There is a logical threat to us from Syrian refugees and Trey Gowdy at least connects the dots and admits that the policies are a failure.   At least he could in 2016.   Fast forward to today and Canada will accept the refugees we don't and so they're going to Canada.   Now, about that 2nd Wall.  :rolleyes:

 

Or we can take the advice of the sagacious like yourself, do nothing, wait until thousands die at the hands of a group of fundy Islamists and then watch the rampage of slaughter against #ALL MUSLIMS that would begin.  You know, that slaughter that comes when the great unwashed finally have had enough?

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16 minutes ago, and then said:

Or we can take the advice of the sagacious like yourself, do nothing, wait until thousands die at the hands of a group of fundy Islamists and then watch the rampage of slaughter against #ALL MUSLIMS that would begin.  You know, that slaughter that comes when the great unwashed finally have had enough?

"Do nothing", the strawman of the authoritarian.   The world according to neocons is the US fedgov or nothing.    So blind to other options, if it isn't a bureaucratic solution as spelled out by Mister President, it doesn't even exist.

This is the quintessential neocon attitude that's been present in this country since 2002.   Blind denial, black and white, patriotic (owned by the Real Owners) need to intervene.

Real Muslims are already being slaughtered in these wars.    How much more instability would you like to cause and how much more deadly violence would you like to practice until the slaughter "begins"?

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1 hour ago, aztek said:

in other words, absolutely irrelevant data for individual  vetting purposes.

Or, absolutely relevant data showing that the vetting process that was in place was sufficient?

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The initial travel ban rollout had to happen so quick "because if we delayed all of the bad guys would have rushed to get in".  This one is delayed 10 days.  So, even Trump himself knows he was initially full of....right?

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As if the fear mongers in govt weren't a terrible problem already, it's like all we needed to do was change to orange-flavored fear mongering, and it's okay!  

Trump's become a big fun celebration of "Let Your Inner Statist Out!"

Trump's also a trend of the establishment.  Obama was Bush-Plus and Trump is Obama-Plus.   It's the same old path of more govt power, more govt spending, more of the same old same old.   It's just got a big white man at the helm, that's the difference.  Is that a difference that makes a difference?

I don't disagree with Trump because he's an alpha male, and I wouldn't be foolish enough to agree with him because he is an alpha male either. 

I disagree with Trump because his ideas are terrible. 

I'm almost ready to rule on Donald Trump.   So far, he's Barack Obama plus brown-people-problems.  

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1 hour ago, Yamato said:

"Do nothing", the strawman of the authoritarian.   The world according to neocons is the US fedgov or nothing.    So blind to other options, if it isn't a bureaucratic solution as spelled out by Mister President, it doesn't even exist.

This is the quintessential neocon attitude that's been present in this country since 2002.   Blind denial, black and white, patriotic (owned by the Real Owners) need to intervene.

Real Muslims are already being slaughtered in these wars.    How much more instability would you like to cause and how much more deadly violence would you like to practice until the slaughter "begins"?

 

Keep talking your ****.  You think you have all the answers but the truth is that nothing you advocate would change anything for the better.  Useless.  

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17 hours ago, Setton said:

Good. I assume they'll also be as proactive cracking down on Christians sending girls abroad for FGM?

Agreed. We should disregard religious murder until all bad things have been eliminated.

What a terrible argument.

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16 hours ago, Agent0range said:

The initial travel ban rollout had to happen so quick "because if we delayed all of the bad guys would have rushed to get in".  This one is delayed 10 days.  So, even Trump himself knows he was initially full of....right?

It happened so quick because the paperwork had already been done. This wasn't a list Trump made up while sipping expensive brandy, it was Oby's idea.

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2017/feb/07/reince-priebus/were-7-nations-identified-donald-trumps-travel-ban/

Quote

The travel part of Trump’s order does target the same seven countries that were singled out with a law Obama signed in December 2015.

The Obama-signed law contains provisions that restrict travel to the United States for people who lived in or visited Iran, Iraq, Sudan, or Syria since March 2011. They must have a visa to enter the United States; they can’t use what is known as the Visa Waiver Program, which allows 90-day U.S. visits to other foreign visitors.

The law was soon expanded by Obama’s Department of Homeland Security to cover Libya, Somalia, and Yemen. They were identified in the agency’s announcement as "countries of concern," a phrase used in the law.

 

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1 hour ago, Dark_Grey said:

It happened so quick because the paperwork had already been done. This wasn't a list Trump made up while sipping expensive brandy, it was Oby's idea.

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2017/feb/07/reince-priebus/were-7-nations-identified-donald-trumps-travel-ban/

 

SEAN SPICER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: If we announced it a lot earlier, it would have given people plenty of time to flood into the country who could have done us harm. That's not exactly a sound strategy. Right? So the people that needed to be kept in the loop were kept in the loop. The people that needed to be briefed were.

Transcript

Edited by Farmer77
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