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1 million sign petition to stop Trump UK visit


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1 hour ago, Ashotep said:

With an online petition you can sign it at home, work or while waiting on the dentist.  Different IP will allow that.  So how many are duplicate signatures. 

Sorry Ashotep, just saw this. It was the first thing i thought off before reading the other  posts. 

 

Online petitions are not worth the paper they are not printed  or signed on.

Edited by freetoroam
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4 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

I think the difference is that on a certain level, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the American empire pretty much rules the globe.

 

Until the Chinese take over of course

:whistle:

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From the block Trump petition: now closed

Government responded

The Government has a policy of not routinely commenting on individual immigration or exclusion cases

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/114003

 

 

From the allow trump petition: now closed

 

Government responded

The Government has a policy of not routinely commenting on individual immigration or exclusion cases.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/114907

 

 

So i expect we will see the same message for this petition.

 

Edited by freetoroam
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7 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

Sorry Ashotep, just saw this. It was the first thing i thought off before reading the other  posts. 

 

Online petitions are not worth the paper they are not printed  or signed on.

Do you remember the e-petition calling for a Second EU Referendum, 77,000 "signatures" had to be removed (fraudulent) and a further million investigated and that petition was said to have 3.5million signatures. - The Government can identify the country or region of origin. It turned out 39,411 came signatures came from the residents of Vatican City, home of Pope Francis, problem was Vatican city only has a population 791. if memory serves i think nearly a hundred came from Antarctica.  :lol:

 

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Plus lets not forget hacktivists groups like Anonymous who no doubt have their 'ways' to fake any mass votes

My message to UK anti Trumpers...

READ FACTS!   And even then...remember this has NOTHING to do with us in the UK..... so shut up, go home, and stop making a fool of yourselves, I as a fellow Brit, am ashamed of you

 

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1 hour ago, stevewinn said:

ban The President of the United States visiting the UK, meanwhile welcome the King of Saudi Arabia and other shady leaders.

Do you remember this petition all over the news, all over the papers, all over the radio, all on line ? 

Ban the Saudi Royal Family from the UK for human rights abuses.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/118022

 

There is a growing campaign in Saudi Arabia to end the guardianship system which prevents women from doing vital tasks without the permission of a male relative.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/60339/nine-things-women-cant-do-in-saudi-arabia

 

Only 400 signatures, obviously executing gay people and hey who cares about the women? they are only second class citizens!!!! jeeze! where were the lefties then?

 

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2 hours ago, stevewinn said:

#Democracy don't make me laugh.

Its the circus of it all, the media go into melt down over these online petitions. look a million people signed a petition whoopty ****ing do. a petition that took no effort whatsoever. Its not representative of the UK populace. Yes lets ban The President of the United States visiting the UK, meanwhile welcome the King of Saudi Arabia and other shady leaders.

Here sign a few.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions?q=trump&state=open

Hiya stevewinn, seen this petition, but not sure the end bit is right. I agree with the first part, not quite the end bit, but the numbers are going up fast.

Please let me make it clear, he does not oppose my point of view.

 

Donald Trump should be invited to make an official State Visit because he is the leader of a free world and U.K. is a country that supports free speech and does not believe that people that appose our point of view should be gagged.

 

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/178844

Edited by freetoroam
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1 hour ago, Ashotep said:

With an online petition you can sign it at home, work or while waiting on the dentist.  Different IP will allow that.  So how many are duplicate signatures. 

I just checked what information needs to be entered to sign the petition. It's laughable to be honest. The only thing which in any way ties you to genuine information is a postcode, which can be picked up anywhere, such as:

Postcode Finder – Find an Address

Other than that, you need to tick a checkbox to say you're a British citizen, and provide a name - I just tested it, and you can simply enter a first name such as "John." You need an email - it works with disposable email addresses, so basically sign it as many times as you like. Finally you need a location, which is provided when you pick up the postcode.

So, basically, add all this to people signing from multiple IP addresses through different locations, as pointed out by Ashotep, along with the ability to sign through proxies and VPNs, as well as the fact that they can't realistically check for validity without using something such as the electoral roll, and the system is a joke - a joke which anyone with an agenda can use to have their petition considered for debate by Parliament.

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45 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

Well it started today and is now over the 10,000 mark. 

 

Come on people, lets get Uncle Don over.  We want out of the EU and we want to be in a powerful position to trade with the US, the last thing we want to do is keep them out! 

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1 hour ago, freetoroam said:

A million signatures, is not the same a million actual people signing when it comes to online petitions, people can create as many accounts as they like to get the numbers higher.

There was a petition to allow him to come here, and it was closed 

shame all those asking for Trump not to come to England, did not do the same to stop the immigrants with no identification papers coming here. And :

 

 

Bravo, because that's the truth.  All those immigrants who are now killing and stealing your dogs and/or asking that you not walk them in certain areas.  

You opened your arms and home in true good British form and now they would like to take over with their restrictive laws and 7th century mentality. 

This is what President Trump is trying to avoid for the US and God bless him for trying.

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1 hour ago, freetoroam said:

Do you remember this petition all over the news, all over the papers, all over the radio, all on line ? 

Ban the Saudi Royal Family from the UK for human rights abuses.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/118022

 

There is a growing campaign in Saudi Arabia to end the guardianship system which prevents women from doing vital tasks without the permission of a male relative.

http://www.theweek.co.uk/60339/nine-things-women-cant-do-in-saudi-arabia

 

Only 400 signatures, obviously executing gay people and hey who cares about the women? they are only second class citizens!!!! jeeze! where were the lefties then?

 

Amazing, isn't it? We women are just property to some.  Even to the Liberals.  They don't seem to care about our rights, the way they do about the rights of those who want to treat us as property.  

NUTS!

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3 hours ago, seeder said:

 

what does democracy have to do with Brits signing a petition...... about some fella who got a new job in the USA?

 

The way I heard it put today is in the symbolism of a state visit, specifically. A state visit represents a high honour and a supposed alignment of the visions of our two countries. Likely these people don't think Trump's vision for America aligns with their vision for the UK.

3 hours ago, Ashotep said:

With an online petition you can sign it at home, work or while waiting on the dentist.  Different IP will allow that.  So how many are duplicate signatures. 

 

2 hours ago, freetoroam said:

people can create as many accounts as they like to get the numbers higher.

 

2 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Do you remember the e-petition calling for a Second EU Referendum, 77,000 "signatures" had to be removed (fraudulent) and a further million investigated and that petition was said to have 3.5million signatures. - The Government can identify the country or region of origin. It turned out 39,411 came signatures came from the residents of Vatican City, home of Pope Francis, problem was Vatican city only has a population 791. if memory serves i think nearly a hundred came from Antarctica.  :lol:

 

 

1 hour ago, LV-426 said:

they can't realistically check for validity without using something such as the electoral roll,

Surely stevewinn's post here is evidence that you can't  simply set up multiple accounts and sign several times. Or rather, you can but it will be found out. LV even provides the mechanism to do this.

Just think for a minute about the political leanings of the UK as a whole compared to the US. Historically, we're definitely more to the left. Or as my dad put it when hearing Sanders described as an American socialist: 'isn't that what we call a Tory activist?' Combine that with the media's portrayal of Trump (whether it's accurate or not is irrelevant and a discussion for elsewhere) and do you really find it that hard to believe that 1.5 million people don't think his policies line up with their vision for the UK?

Trying to explain it away as multiple votes looks desperate. And you really don't need to be. There are plenty of valid reasons to extend a state visit, including, if you do disagree with him, soft influence in the hopes of toning things down or reducing the impact on the UK.

 

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3 hours ago, Thorvir said:

Probably as many or at least comparably so to multiple Democrat voters in the POTUS elections here in the states.

 

3 hours ago, Thorvir said:

Some petitions work.  Usually serious ones that have substance and highlight actual, real grievances.

I'm sorry Thorvir, are you under the impression you have a right to comment on the democratic workings of the UK? Interesting.

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1 hour ago, MJNYC said:

Bravo, because that's the truth.  All those immigrants who are now killing and stealing your dogs and/or asking that you not walk them in certain areas.  

You opened your arms and home in true good British form and now they would like to take over with their restrictive laws and 7th century mentality. 

This is what President Trump is trying to avoid for the US and God bless him for trying.

The democrats use to want to ban people when it was the Vietnamese we were trying to bring here and they weren't blowing people up or chopping off heads.  Even old Gov Brown of California was against it, thought we should help people here at home first.  Now he will cut out help for middle class students before he will the illegals. 

Quote

Ironically, Republicans led by former President Gerald Ford were the political figures who fought for the refugees to enter the United States.

Brown echoed his isolationist theme throughout his first term. As recounted by author Larry Clinton Thompson in his book, “Refugee Workers in the Indochina Exodus,” Brown said, “We can’t be looking 5,000 miles away and at the same time neglecting people who live here.”

FLASHBACK: Democrats Tried To Block Thousands Of Vietnam War Refugees, Including Orphans

 

Quote

Before California strips middle class families of assistance for college tuition, it should first cancel tuition benefits it pays out to illegal immigrants who attend the state’s public universities, a key congressman said Wednesday.

Rep. Hunter to Calif. governor: Nix illegal immigrants instead of cutting middle class scholarships

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2 hours ago, Setton said:

Surely stevewinn's post here is evidence that you can't  simply set up multiple accounts and sign several times. Or rather, you can but it will be found out. LV even provides the mechanism to do this.

I don't want to get too technical here, but it's perfectly possible. Also remember, I'm not just calling into question the Trump petition, but any petition potentially considered for debate by Parliament.

First, you have to look at what information they require. They don't require any kind of account to be set up at all to "sign" a petition. From their site (for starting a petition):

"When you create a petition we ask for your name, email address and postcode.

We’ll publish your name along with the petition, but not your email address or postcode. We use these details to make sure you haven’t signed the petition already, and that you’re a real person (not a robot)."

To sign a petition:

flij2r.jpg

So which information can uniquely identify you?

Name? Nope. A name is meaningless unless attached to something else, which in this case is a postcode - I'll get to that in a minute. As I said, I also tested it by simply putting a first name in, and it accepted it.

Email address? Nope. People can have as many Email addresses as they like, and they can change them as often as they like. Temporary Email services - or disposable Email services - also allow you to create random addresses which typically last for a few minutes, allowing for things like replying to confirmation Emails. Some websites filter out known sites like this to prevent spam, but it's like 'whack-a-mole' as they pop up all the time. The one I tested was accecpted on the petition site.

Okay, postcode? A postcode will just give a street unless it is accompanied with a house number, so technically if you have provided a full and accurate name, and you're the only person on your street with that name, you do have a means of narrowing the search to individuals. Without crossreferencing against something like the electoral roll though, how can it be determined how many people live in that street, how old are they, etc. Someone could cast a vote for their infant child, or at the other end of the scale five legitimate votes could be cast by five adults in the same house. Also, how do they determine if a legitimate vote is cast from a business premises?

In truth, all this is beyond the way the system will work anyway. The system will check for basic inconsistencies, such as duplicate Email addresses.

Beyond that it will look at details such as IP addresses to validate they are consistent with location. This is why the Vatican votes that steve mentioned earlier were picked up; a large number of votes all originated from the same location outside the UK, probably with other obvious inconsistencies, such as the time the votes were generated, etc.

The only reason the fakes were picked up was the scale of the deception. Had the fakes been generated on a smaller scale within a larger time frame, they would have been much harder to spot.

Anyway, the bottom line is the system is woefully inadequate for something that can potentially influence our Government.

 

2 hours ago, Setton said:

The way I heard it put today is in the symbolism of a state visit, specifically. A state visit represents a high honour and a supposed alignment of the visions of our two countries. Likely these people don't think Trump's vision for America aligns with their vision for the UK.

What visions do these people think we share with the countries I mentioned earlier then; Saudi Arabia, Qatar and United Arab Emirates?

Let's be realistic here. State visits are about diplomacy centred around business and finance. The above countries wouldn't have set foot in Britain if it came down to "alignment of visions."

Edited by LV-426
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8 minutes ago, LV-426 said:

Okay, postcode? A postcode will just give a street unless it is accompanied with a house number, so technically if you have provided a full and accurate name, and you're the only person on your street with that name, you do have a means of narrowing the search to individuals. Without crossreferencing against something like the electoral roll though, how can it be determined how many people live in that street, how old are they, etc. Someone could cast a vote for their infant child, or at the other end of the scale five legitimate votes could be cast by five adults in the same house. Also, how do they determine if a legitimate vote is cast from a business premises?

Quote

 

I'd expect it's relatively rare for more than one person to have a certain name within a postcode. And again, easily checked on the electoral role. And 5 legitimate votes could be cast by 5 adults in the same house. Where's the problem with that?

Quote

The only reason the fakes were picked up was the scale of the deception. Had the fakes been generated on a smaller scale within a larger time frame, they would have been much harder to spot.

And that's the important thing. Sure, there is some potential for abuse but if a petition appears significant (especially when it opposes the government's position), I've no doubt they'll check it more thoroughly.

Quote

Anyway, the bottom line is the system is woefully inadequate for something that can potentially influence our Government.

It's not perfect, I'll agree. Far from it. But do you really think they make up a significant portion of the 1.5 million? Even the ones on the referendum petition, while seemingly large numbers, make up an utterly insignificant proportion of the total. Certainly not enough to influence the debate.
 

Quote

 

What visions do these people think we share with the countries I mentioned earlier then; Saudi Arabia, Qatar and United Arab Emirates?

Let's be realistic here. State visits are about diplomacy centred around business and finance. The above countries wouldn't have set foot in Britain if it came down to "alignment of visions."

 

And that's exactly what I meant about valid reasons to oppose the petition. You simply don't need to resort to claiming those 1.5 million people don't actually think the way they do.

As you say, it's a part of the diplomatic process and, as I mentioned before, an opportunity for soft influence. Which is why we invite rather dubious allies like those three. We don't share a common vision but they are useful to us. I'm simply explaining why people are signing this petition. I couldn't agree more that if they sign this, they should also oppose state visits for Saudi Arabia, Qatar and UAE.

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11 minutes ago, Setton said:

I'd expect it's relatively rare for more than one person to have a certain name within a postcode. And again, easily checked on the electoral role. And 5 legitimate votes could be cast by 5 adults in the same house. Where's the problem with that?

And that's the important thing. Sure, there is some potential for abuse but if a petition appears significant (especially when it opposes the government's position), I've no doubt they'll check it more thoroughly.

It's not perfect, I'll agree. Far from it. But do you really think they make up a significant portion of the 1.5 million? Even the ones on the referendum petition, while seemingly large numbers, make up an utterly insignificant proportion of the total. Certainly not enough to influence the debate.
 

And that's exactly what I meant about valid reasons to oppose the petition. You simply don't need to resort to claiming those 1.5 million people don't actually think the way they do.

As you say, it's a part of the diplomatic process and, as I mentioned before, an opportunity for soft influence. Which is why we invite rather dubious allies like those three. We don't share a common vision but they are useful to us. I'm simply explaining why people are signing this petition. I couldn't agree more that if they sign this, they should also oppose state visits for Saudi Arabia, Qatar and UAE.

I can only offer you a degree of technical advice from my background in computing. You can either take it or leave it.

I personally haven't made any claims as to how many of the petitioners are fake. Some for sure. The percentage, who knows?

My only point on the technical side is that I don't believe this should be a feature of a Government website, when it CAN be easily abused, and result in an issue being taken before Parliament.

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As already said it has nothing to do with anyone outside America, why are people surprised Trump got in on the promise of banning Muslims it's what Americans want.

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On the news last night one of the anti Trump crowd said "its not what the people of Britain want " EXCUSE ME but who gave her the right to speak on behalf of the rest of us? 

This is the problem with so many of these lefty supremists...they think we all agree with them and they have no idea what the rest of the country is saying because they do not care!

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Posted (IP: Staff) ·

Related:

Quote

Theresa May's decision to invite Donald Trump to a state visit has put the Queen in a "very difficult position", a former head of the Foreign Office says.

Lord Ricketts told the BBC the speed of the invitation had "surprised" him.

A petition calling for the state visit to be cancelled has gathered more than 1.6 million signatures. A rival pro-visit petition has more than 70,000.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38805196

 

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3 hours ago, Still Waters said:

Related:

 

That rival petition now has over a million signatures too. 

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Donald Trump UK state visit to be debated in Parliament

 

Members of the UK parliament are to hold a debate on President Donald Trump's controversial state visit.

The debate, which will be held in the House of Commons on February 20, comes after a petition calling for the invite to be scrapped attracted over 1.6 million signatures.
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1 hour ago, Farmer77 said:

That rival petition now has over a million signatures too. 

 

Indeed, I was just reading that in the news

 

Quote

 

A rival petition backing Donald Trump's state visit to the UK has triggered a Government response and will be considered by Parliament for debate after receiving more than 100,000 signatures.

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2017-01-31/more-than-100-000-sign-petition-backing-trump-state-visit/


 

 

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7 hours ago, freetoroam said:

On the news last night one of the anti Trump crowd said "its not what the people of Britain want " EXCUSE ME but who gave her the right to speak on behalf of the rest of us? 

This is the problem with so many of these lefty supremists...they think we all agree with them and they have no idea what the rest of the country is saying because they do not care!

Someone should start a counter-petition to reinforce the fact that the actual majority of UKers aren't against Trump visiting.  Or a petition that bars internet petitions. :) 

Edited by Thorvir
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