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EliPage

Why people believe?

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Sherapy
5 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

I'll never be able to see him through your eyes, darling--let's leave it at that.

Fair enough, I will respect your conclusion. 

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Hammerclaw
47 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Hammer, I am only referring to this case. 

In this exchange, this time, in my view, he demonstrated  fairness, humbleness, and graciousness to you. 

 

Of course you do--you see the good in everyone. I, on the other hand, have to take my entire history of exchanges with him and his with other Theists into consideration. That's why I'll never see him through your eyes. Going to work; will be on again after 8pm your time.

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Liquid Gardens
17 hours ago, eight bits said:

I am not following what the problem is where rolling the dice ever gets the right answer. If it gets the right answer, I suspect "irrationality" would be the availability of better ways to solve the problem, in which case the heursitic is inadmissible.

If there aren't better ways available, and the heursitic gets the right answer sometimes, then what is irrational about using it in your view? What do you propose to do instead, if nothing better is available?

Because I'd argue that believing that rolling dice is somehow connected to the speed of asteroids is irrational all on its own, even though over time and enough repetitions it's actual accuracy is not zero.  A stopped watch is right twice a day, but that's not a rational way to determine the time even in the scenario where someone is locked in a sunless, clockless room.  Just as in this case I'd argue that it's irrational, even in the scenario where there is 'nothing better', to use dice to determine an asteroid's speed.  Just because we have no information on which to evaluate the truth of something it doesn't mean that then any proposed heuristic or rule is then rational; that way be dragons (literally).

Quote

Also, don't confuse "I don't understand why it works, but it has worked" with "irrational." 

I'd put it more as, 'just because one or 'we' don't understand how something works it doesn't make any 'ol explanation rational'.  If I or we don't understand how cars work, it doesn't make 'by invisible ghosts pushing it' rational.

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Problem selection alone ensures aesthetic considerations (or other non-truth criteria: usefulness, interestingness, etc., as already discussed) will be used. Experiments are often expensive, so aesthetic (etc.) considerations will plausibly influence the order in which hypotheses are tested.

Fair enough, although things like problem selection doesn't have anything to do with 'why something is true', it's driving behavior.  The actual scientific truths of essentially all of physics and chemistry do not rely on much in the way of aesthetic-related heuristics to help narrow in on the actual truth; those are actually to be avoided.

As always thanks for the convo!  Always interesting and loads of food for thought.  I need to read more about this Godel chap, I've always had a hunger for the mind-blowing.

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Stubbly_Dooright
4 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

No, it's about the contempt for the one's who do like the word and believe. There are Atheists, Agnostics, and Theists in this thread having lengthy, articulate and erudite discourse on the topic in a very cordial manner. It's the height of ill manners to interject one's own personal animus into the such a conversation.

I can understand that, if that is the case. I just don't see that when I read Frank's posts. It might be me, I don't know. *shrugs*

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I can understand that, if that is the case. I just don't see that when I read Frank's posts. It might be me, I don't know. *shrugs*

A matter of perspective and history and perhaps I have too long a memory and should forgive and forget. Unfortunately, the Scotch-Irish are rarely so inclined.

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Mr Walker
On 16/03/2017 at 5:41 PM, jmccr8 said:

You likely should have read the rest of the link, but then it wouldn't have supported your position. 

jmccr8

 I read the whole thing.  It is true that  some points cannot be proven and are debated, but what i quoted is correct and the general theme of the post supports the idea that language goes back far earlier than we once thought when we believed  that  without a brocas area in the brain an animal could not form language.   Thus homo erectus most probably did have language skills, even if more simplistic than our own. That means they also had a self aware consciousness, and a language of the mind, and hence would have developed spiritual concepts, and other abstract/symbolic concepts. 

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Mr Walker

I would expect that there has always been a way for intelligent species (homo) to express concepts in some form, for some reason Walker thinks that there was a complete descriptive language of the mind that has always existed and it is the language that gives intelligence to man.:rolleyes:

I dont think, that and never even suggested it.

My point was the diametric opposite.

Self aware consciousness is the end product of a long process of the evolution of consciousness, and developed over millions of years   At a certain point, in 3 or four types of hominids we call humans, ( including neandertal )  a critical mass of  self aware consciousness was achieved.

Before that point animals, including pre humans,  are non self  aware and thus  not "intelligent'  or "conscious"  as humans are  ( some modern animals  reach the level of a two to four year old human but none get any higher)

 SO ONLY when this critical mass of awareness is reached, can any animal, including humans,  construct and express concepts.

 Concepts a re linguistic forms and thus require reasonably complex language to construct and hold.  Dogs birds etc dont  have concepts and  there is little evidence ANY non human animals do, although some, including other primates, are getting very close.

 Conceptual awreness is ALWAYS evidenced by product, such as constructing tools, or burying the dead with dignity, or decorating caves, or using ceremonies or music or dance.  as symbolic representations of concepts.  Thus we can measure, somewhat, when hominids tipped over into self aware consciousness and began developing conceptualisation.

 Language of the mind was the last evolutionary step  (so far) in the evolution of what we call humans today. Neandertal, cro magnon, homo erectus, homo habilis, and probably a s far back as Australopithecus, some hominids developed/evolved a new level of self conscious awareness and cognitive abilty which, even to day, no non human animals has evolved  

The definition of man (human) is dependent on this abilty Thus man has always had this abilty, but only because, before we  evolved it we were not human but prehuman.  Language of the mind and self aware consciousness co evolved and are dependent on each other. 

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Mr Walker
On 17/03/2017 at 3:59 AM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Totally agree! :tu: And I wanted to reply to your post to MW's. Yes, I think inherited situations is also important in regarding what one should do or don't do. My blood pressure levels, I believe is inherited. My dad had it. So, I don't think a complete 'concentration' is going to be a cure all. One needs to deal with it, if they inherited it. So, if drugs can help, then that's the case. 

Neither you nor sherapy actually listen to a word i write do you? LOL  I explained ALL this.   There are ways for any one to regulate their body using their mind,  BUT get a doctors advice and listen to it .

However if you find  that you can reduce  your blood pressure using diet,  meditation  or other mental techniques you might save a fortune on drugs and avoid some of their nasty side effects. It is not a matter of one or the other but using BOTH in the safest and most effective combination.   High Blood pressure has physical causes even where it is genetically inherited, and those causes can be addressed not only by drugs, but by working on things like  stress levels, anxiety levels,  fitness levels etc.   A good doctor will tell you that drugs should be a last resort, not the first one. (except in urgent cases) . 

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Mr Walker
On 17/03/2017 at 4:09 AM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I never saw you do any of this, in the past. 

You missed my point. One could easily say a wheelchair bound individual is a burden on society. My point is, don't be so sure you are correct that telling someone else to not be one, when you have no idea what their situation is. So, in the end, you shouldn't 'tell' others what to do, because you could be very wrong. 

I did not miss the point. You did. And why is it, when someone disagrees with you, you tell them they are willfully ignorant? Could it be that it's the reverse? 

No matter what I say or do or notice from your links, you say it's more than that and I'm not reading it right. I do think I am. ( Plus, It seems to me, you get even more wordy. Why is that? )

Seriously, Mr. Walker, you have to give to be able to receive. Give in, and realize what you are doing that gets all the negativity. Until then, I cannot see any reasonable bits that I can digest as serious information. 

 

You don't read what i say. I specifically talked about people who DELIBERATELY make themselves a burden.  Then you answer as if i was talking about people who cannot help being requiring  assistance.  This is a classic example of why i tell you you misunderstand and misrepresent wht i say. 

The only way to correct a misapprehension is to use more words, and hope the reader reads them more carefully . 

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back to earth

No one can understand what you say   .....    and you always misinterpret everyone else .

Hmmmmmm . 

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Mr Walker
On 17/03/2017 at 4:23 AM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

That is, I find, extremely insulting. I don't think you should treat anyone on here like that. She is not attacking you, but giving you calm and caring posts. :angry: 

Really?! I have come to know plenty of church goers, who are also alcoholics. I am not a church goer, and I do not abuse alcohol. I was just recently in an area known for it's strong bible influences. You would think there would be less situations where a women is alone and pregnant, right? Yet, I noticed a lot of billboards on the highways here and there, about what to do if pregnant and alone. I don't see them in where I live, where it's not highly bible, and church going influence. Apparently, being pregnant and alone is not such a big problem. Yet, I feel, it must be where I was, cause why all these billboards on it, all over the place? Wouldn't that be taught in a church to not do that? 

So, I wouldn't compare church going to eliminating something, because of habit. Sometimes, a habit forms when it's being told it's off limits. When it's not being taught that, and to be responsibility for it, in a non-church environment, somehow, it's not a problem. Go figure. :no:  :rolleyes: 

No she is attacking me, as always,  by making up motivations which don't exist, and attributing beliefs, ideas or values, to me which i dont hold, then stating them as facts not opinions. .  And being nice  but firm has has no effect n her

Therapy is a play on words She offered me a t least 6 specific pieces of psychological advice, based on her own analysis of me, in the last week, hence therapy, as in therapist.   You can be rude, ignorant, and quite vicious while still being   calm.

(not accusing sherapy of this although she treats me very differently to say how she treats you and so i see a different side to her) .

Caring? maybe.  I do see a lot of compassion in sherapy but i don't see her a s caring much for, or about, me.  I see her comments as personal, untrue, and possibly deliberate attempts to put me down, rather than help me. 

The statistics prove something different to what you observe at a personal level . That is not surprising because we all observe from within a limited range and perspective but you cant expect me to accept your observations over the many statistics on this issue. 

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jmccr8
2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

That means they also had a self aware consciousness,

No one was arguing this.:huh:

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

and a language of the mind,

Did your alien god/angel tell you this, well maybe it works like that back home, but Dorthy isn't in Kansas anymore.:lol:

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

and hence would have developed spiritual concepts, and other abstract/symbolic concepts. 

How do you define spiritual concepts, you say you have studied many(?) religions and taught comparative religion and do not belong to or recognize one as a member. You show all kinds of STUFF about the benefits of belonging to a religion in part because you will live longer. What kind of sense can be made from this cyclitic reasoning of yours, you argue effectively all sides of your own arguments and get upset when we applaud your obviously sound unshakable logic? :lol::whistle:

jmccr8

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jmccr8
2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You don't read what i say.

Of course they do why do you think people respond?:huh:

2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The only way to correct a misapprehension is to use more words, and hope the reader reads them more carefully .

Or use less words that make more sense.:tu:

jmccr8

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jmccr8
2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Concepts a re linguistic forms and thus require reasonably complex language to construct and hold.

I experience thousands of concepts every day that I don't need to talk to myself about because they exist in the environment around me.I recognize their significance in the example of the experience that it exists in, when I walk into a room there are chairs, tables, pictures, lights, colors a myriad of concepts and unless they give reason for me to think about them then they are just and experience of stimuli.

 In my trade I show people more than I explain because I want them watch and learn, most of the things I've learnt was from watching others,I knew and was proficient at my job so I had time to see what that guy in the next trade or duty did and would prep their jobs ahead of them. I didn't and don't want to just know one part of an industry I wanted to know all phases so I took work in as many different trades to get my education. Some people thought that I drifted too much but didn't understand that they pay money to learn go to seminars to advance themselves. I took money to learn and found my mentors, and they became my mentors because they saw that I watched and was prepared.I didn't have to put those experiences into words so I could make myself understand, I saw patterns and made associations.

jmccr8

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structure
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Stubbly_Dooright
3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Neither you nor sherapy actually listen to a word i write do you? LOL  I explained ALL this.   There are ways for any one to regulate their body using their mind,  BUT get a doctors advice and listen to it .

However if you find  that you can reduce  your blood pressure using diet,  meditation  or other mental techniques you might save a fortune on drugs and avoid some of their nasty side effects. It is not a matter of one or the other but using BOTH in the safest and most effective combination.   High Blood pressure has physical causes even where it is genetically inherited, and those causes can be addressed not only by drugs, but by working on things like  stress levels, anxiety levels,  fitness levels etc.   A good doctor will tell you that drugs should be a last resort, not the first one. (except in urgent cases) .

How can anyone really read your posts thoroughly, when you get wordy and keep changing it up? You need to reread what you write, so you can make sense, the firsst time. Plus, there is a lot ihave not said about my particular situation, meaning it was at a last resort. Plus, there are a lot of factors, (eating habits trauma, the correct way of meditation, and such), you have not privy on.So don't think I take your word on it.

 Lately, one of my laptops has issues with the spacebar and it takes longer to type.  I have another one,but I sometimes cannot get that up and running. So,if I don't respond much to your posts,it's because I'm not finding them worth the effort.

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Stubbly_Dooright
3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

You don't read what i say. I specifically talked about people who DELIBERATELY make themselves a burden.  Then you answer as if i was talking about people who cannot help being requiring  assistance.  This is a classic example of why i tell you you misunderstand and misrepresent wht i say. 

The only way to correct a misapprehension is to use more words, and hope the reader reads them more carefully . 

No, you didn't. You felt you could ask about me not just being burden. You didn't say anything about it being deliberate. Plus, it's not your place to do so. 

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Stubbly_Dooright
On 3/15/2017 at 9:45 PM, Mr Walker said:

I might state you have a responsibility not to deliberately be a burden on society  I don't now how you  would feel about that one. 

Ok, just to show I face my mistakes. I did find the post and you did say deliberate. But, in the manner I have read your posts and see how you not that particular in how you explain until later, it's understandable if I feel not taking what you say to heart. I do say apologies to stating you didn't say it. BUT, I still say IT NOT YOUR PLACE TO CALL IT!!! You still have no clue to the situations. You are not the law to me.

I was serious when I said about not going through the trouble with your posts. This one took too much trouble. Or until I do something tricky. (details later)

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

How can anyone really read your posts thoroughly, when you get wordy and keep changing it up? You need to reread what you write, so you can make sense, the firsst time. Plus, there is a lot ihave not said about my particular situation, meaning it was at a last resort. Plus, there are a lot of factors, (eating habits trauma, the correct way of meditation, and such), you have not privy on.So don't think I take your word on it.

 Lately, one of my laptops has issues with the spacebar and it takes longer to type.  I have another one,but I sometimes cannot get that up and running. So,if I don't respond much to your posts,it's because I'm not finding them worth the effort.

O-o-o-o-o, ouchy! Somebody needs another cup of coffee--with something extra.

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Stubbly_Dooright
20 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

O-o-o-o-o, ouchy! Somebody needs another cup of coffee--with something extra.

Maybe........ :D.  

( although lately coffee has been giving me the jitters) * shrugs *. 

Anyways, the laptop situation ( I'm on my phone now) is a pain in the butt.  So at the moment, I have to chose wisely on what I need to reply or respond to.  And since I have done my best in explaining my case for it,  I see no reasoning to continue.  

( or until the spacebar situation is solved). ;) 

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Hammerclaw
4 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Maybe........ :D.  

( although lately coffee has been giving me the jitters) * shrugs *. 

Anyways, the laptop situation ( I'm on my phone now) is a pain in the butt.  So at the moment, I have to chose wisely on what I need to reply or respond to.  And since I have done my best in explaining my case for it,  I see no reasoning to continue.  

( or until the spacebar situation is solved). ;) 

Take one of your laptops and do a factory reset, preferably loaded with windows 10. It will delete every bit of nonessential bloatware while preserving the option to download them again should you want to. Your files will be preserved as well. If it's mechanical a keyboard is easy to replace. Two screws marked keyboard need loosened on the bottom then the keyboard comes off with a wire connector you unplug beneath. Plug the new keyboard in, replace the retaining screws and you're good to go.

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Sherapy
3 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Maybe........ :D.  

( although lately coffee has been giving me the jitters) * shrugs *. 

Anyways, the laptop situation ( I'm on my phone now) is a pain in the butt.  So at the moment, I have to chose wisely on what I need to reply or respond to.  And since I have done my best in explaining my case for it,  I see no reasoning to continue.  

( or until the spacebar situation is solved). ;) 

Oh no, your laptop is acting up!!! 

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jmccr8
8 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Lately, one of my laptops has issues with the spacebar and it takes longer to type.  I have another one,but I sometimes cannot get that up and running. So,if I don't respond much to your posts,it's because I'm not finding them worth the effort.

I always use a wireless mouse and keyboard then I can push the laptop further away, same with the towers.:) My phone not that fond of using it for more than reading and liking, between them little icons and auto correct I'd rather wait till I get home to type anything.

jmccr8

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Nuclear Wessel
7 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Take one of your laptops and do a factory reset, preferably loaded with windows 10.

If I were her I would completely avoid Windows--it is an absolutely dreadful resource hog, is highly susceptible to viruses and is all-around an insecure platform. I recommend switching to a distribution of Linux; it's free, highly secure, consumes very little resources, and is not nearly as likely to become infected with viruses (the reason for this being that most viruses are compiled as executable [.exe] files which cannot be opened on a Linux distribution without the aid of a Windows emulator of some sort, but that's not really relevant.)

If you are considering Linux after reading the previous paragraph, Stubbly, go here: https://getfedora.org/

If you need help with anything I'm just a PM away.

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eight bits

LG

I sense you want to wrap up this discussion of heuristic. Let me leave you with an entertaining historical example of "making right inferences for 'wrong' reasons:"

https://uncertaintist.wordpress.com/2015/12/03/a-prematurely-jungian-archeologist-at-glastonbury-abbey/

There is no question that the archeologist highlighted in the piece was an "occultist," although in the context of his times and place (early 20th Century Britain) his interests were not very unusual. Nevertheless, he was remarkably measured in what he claimed about his experiences (compared with others who did similar things in other fields, and asserted that they were in contact with "spirits").

This is also an example where "the magic ran out," or would soon. Although he could have continued for some additional years if he had been more discreet (his employer was the Church of England, which didn't tolerate these practices - which compete with their own approach to exploring the 'spirit world'), the work itself was maturing away from locating buildings (where these methods might be expected to work, and plainly did work) to interpreting the buildings that had been located (where these methods would probably be more like your "rolling the dice" idea).

Enjoy.

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Stubbly_Dooright
12 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Take one of your laptops and do a factory reset, preferably loaded with windows 10. It will delete every bit of nonessential bloatware while preserving the option to download them again should you want to. Your files will be preserved as well. If it's mechanical a keyboard is easy to replace. Two screws marked keyboard need loosened on the bottom then the keyboard comes off with a wire connector you unplug beneath. Plug the new keyboard in, replace the retaining screws and you're good to go.

These are a couple of things, I was thinking of. ( by the way, I'm on the other laptop, apparently, I get the wifi going on it *shrugs* ) My hubby is thinking of having it checked out through those he knows at work. So, there's that. But thanks Hammer. I appreciate your help on this. :yes: I'll let you know more. :) 

8 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Oh no, your laptop is acting up!!! 

Yeah, the main one. Like I said, I'm lucking out on the other one right now. And that my hubby is going to get the first one checked out. Here's hoping. :tu: 

6 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

I always use a wireless mouse and keyboard then I can push the laptop further away, same with the towers.:) My phone not that fond of using it for more than reading and liking, between them little icons and auto correct I'd rather wait till I get home to type anything.

Reading up on the net, ( for my research on my situation ), I saw a lot of advise on separate, if not, blue tooth keyboards. This might be something I could look into too. :yes: 

4 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

If I were her I would completely avoid Windows--it is an absolutely dreadful resource hog, is highly susceptible to viruses and is all-around an insecure platform. I recommend switching to a distribution of Linux; it's free, highly secure, consumes very little resources, and is not nearly as likely to become infected with viruses (the reason for this being that most viruses are compiled as executable [.exe] files which cannot be opened on a Linux distribution without the aid of a Windows emulator of some sort, but that's not really relevant.)

If you are considering Linux after reading the previous paragraph, Stubbly, go here: https://getfedora.org/

If you need help with anything I'm just a PM away.

Thanks NW. :tu:  :wub:   I wrote down that URL you just put, so thanks for that. I'm gonna see about that. :yes: 

Yeah, windows is a problem, with what you said. But we don't do MACs, so I appreciate your input and the URL. 

Wow!! Instant tech support! Gotta luv that!!!! :D      :nw:  

 

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