The Reason for Religion

[Jor-el]

This is essentially what I am trying to transmit here. Although anybody can do this without religion, religion purposefully exists to encourage this type of behavior...

 

 

and this one is also relevant....

 

 

Edited February 20, 2017 by Jor-el

[StarMountainKid]

4 minutes ago, Jor-el said:

Every positive action fights entropy, while negative reactions accelerate it.

Entropy can also be defined as loss of information. Loss of intelligence. In personal negative action, both are diminished.

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

6 hours ago, Jor-el said:

The Reason for Religion

Entropy is the movement of a system toward a lower energy state, it is also the reason for death, it is the reason why democracies will end in dictatorships and laws that are fair eventually seem to be abandoned as too restrictive. It is why morality degrades over time. It is the reasons why old orders pass away and new orders whether they be political, social or even moral have to periodically be reinstituted, the old done away with as corrupt.

------------------

Well let me put it this way, religion essentially encapsulates the concept of doing good, of striving to always take a positive out of a negative. Like Jesus saying that we must turn the other cheek, no matter how many times we are slapped in the face.... what is essentially being taught by religion, is to create a positive out of a negative, thus combating entropy and essentially reversing it.

 

Every positive action fights entropy, while negative reactions accelerate it.

It is never a good idea to generalize about religion, especially since there are paths in the opposite spectrum of Christianity, for example. Besides, there are sects within Christendom in constant opposition. Also, the collective morality that we all have learned since day one of our (20th or 21st century) existence is based on ancient, second-hand stories (and no one knows the authors of the majority of these texts, and practically everything is debatable nowadays, especially the more and more one dissects these "holy" texts). One has to buy into the "holiness" and validity of the words on decaying papers, but these second-hand stories boil down to fiction, for many people. Do we need archaic morality when we have civil and political rights? Setting aside the controversial concept of "death," do you think people need religion to get their equal share in this material world?

If the "holy" texts had not existed and (in many cases) been enforced on people, many would not have resorted to act in certain ways to appease some invisible, silent god (to save their lives from the chopping block, and souls from damnation, bad luck, or returning to this world as a lesser being). The state of our world would be something else, no doubt.

On the other hand, why do other people still scan these "holy" texts with almost Sauron's eye-like intensity? Perhaps they have seen "signs, wonders and various miracles," or experienced the afterlife? At any rate, it is too late to turn back time; you and I have been heavily indoctrinated by our Christian religion since the day one, and the concept of good and evil will always be hovering over us until our last sigh.

Give us your commentary on the following: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (This is not a question, nor do I expect a right or wrong reply.)

Peace.

[back to earth]

Do you want the  ' Liberation Theology' version of Christianity  , or some other version ?       

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

If you are asking me, then my Christian faith is definitely "some other version" -- my otherworldly version. Peace.

[StarMountainKid]

I remember talking to a co-worker and saying I was interested in Buddhism. He said, "How is that going to get you into Heaven?"

[Jor-el]

18 hours ago, Ehrman Pagels 1 said:

It is never a good idea to generalize about religion, especially since there are paths in the opposite spectrum of Christianity, for example. Besides, there are sects within Christendom in constant opposition. Also, the collective morality that we all have learned since day one of our (20th or 21st century) existence is based on ancient, second-hand stories (and no one knows the authors of the majority of these texts, and practically everything is debatable nowadays, especially the more and more one dissects these "holy" texts). One has to buy into the "holiness" and validity of the words on decaying papers, but these second-hand stories boil down to fiction, for many people. Do we need archaic morality when we have civil and political rights? Setting aside the controversial concept of "death," do you think people need religion to get their equal share in this material world?

If the "holy" texts had not existed and (in many cases) been enforced on people, many would not have resorted to act in certain ways to appease some invisible, silent god (to save their lives from the chopping block, and souls from damnation, bad luck, or returning to this world as a lesser being). The state of our world would be something else, no doubt.

On the other hand, why do other people still scan these "holy" texts with almost Sauron's eye-like intensity? Perhaps they have seen "signs, wonders and various miracles," or experienced the afterlife? At any rate, it is too late to turn back time; you and I have been heavily indoctrinated by our Christian religion since the day one, and the concept of good and evil will always be hovering over us until our last sigh.

Give us your commentary on the following: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (This is not a question, nor do I expect a right or wrong reply.)

Peace.

Hi Ehrman Pagels 1,

I like your name by the way, interesting choice there.

I generalize about religion in this specific context because ultimately they all within their narrow confines of existence, are really about the same thing.... ultimately they all find a way that combats entropy. Without exception I think you will find that they follow the golden rule and its corollaries.

Even when they are antagonistic toward one another due to opposing beliefs, they all encourage good deeds for example, all good deeds fight entropy and reverse it, they all encourage positive thinking and lifestyles that essentially motivate others, further negating entropy.

You are looking at the differences between them, and yes they do exist and sometimes they are completely incompatible in their theological outlook, but the practical application of their beliefs are all centered on helping others and in so doing they negate entropy.

As I said, one does not need to be religious to do this, but religion is especially designed and focused to bring those practical applications about in peoples lives.

Even the so called atrocities provided a purpose in this mission, they encouraged a people to take those practical teachings provided by the religions and incorporate them into philosophical thinking that further evolved society beyond those selfsame religions.... the enlightenment would not have existed if not for the repression that came before, for example. The concept of a human being having worth intrinsic to themselves besides their immediate usefulness as beasts of burden was disseminated due to religion.

When France held up the banner of Fraternity, Equality and Liberty, it is because it learnt the value of those intrinsic qualities after repression. When America wrote in its Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness", they did so due to the knowledge acquired by the previous dissemination of those thoughts by religion taken a step further and imprinting this in a secular context, brought forth by the enlightenment once again.

So when I say that the purpose of religion is to keep these concepts alive, thus providing the cornerstone of future regenerations of civilized thought, they are in effect helping us to never forget these truths, even if the societies we live in have forgotten them. Ultimately they will fall, but these thoughts will not die away because religions will adapt, and the message will continue on always, always fighting entropy that undermines human endeavor, from morality to politics to philosophy and war.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

Let us divide the phrase into two sections, then we'll see where that leads us....

"Blessed are the poor in spirit"

The poor in spirit are not the spiritually poor. They are not the natural man, they are not the man who merely reacts to the physical stimuli, but rather to the man that sees beyond the physical stimuli of the world. What does a man like this see?

He sees that in every action he has a choice, a positive action or reaction or a negative action or reaction. They see the best in people, they are willing to take a chance on a stranger in need of help. They don't do it to feel all good about themselves but because they care. So why are they called the poor in spirit? Because that is how the natural man will see this person. The fool, the chump, the do-gooder, the inflexible honorable man who will not bend to fit the times, who will fight for his convictions, the boy scout, the idealist, the one who doesn't see "the real world" and how "things have changed".

"for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

What is the kingdom of Heaven? Is it some abstract thing in the spirit world? A place for spirits and ghosts? No, the kingdom of Heaven is physical, it is a promise, it is the end of entropy in this world, not the next. It is the promise of the resurrection.

In the end, the phrase is a promise and a prophesy, real people will fight entropy and their reward one day will be to overcome it entirely.

[Jor-el]

16 hours ago, back to earth said:

Do you want the  ' Liberation Theology' version of Christianity  , or some other version ?       

They versions don't matter, it is their effect that does. Ultimately they are all fighting the same war on the same side.

[Jor-el]

2 hours ago, StarMountainKid said:

I remember talking to a co-worker and saying I was interested in Buddhism. He said, "How is that going to get you into Heaven?"

Heaven is a place on Earth as Belinda Carlisle says.... Heaven was never promised to mankind. It is merely a way station, before we are returned to a post entropic universe...
 

[StarMountainKid]

42 minutes ago, Jor-el said:

Heaven is a place on Earth as Belinda Carlisle says.... Heaven was never promised to mankind. It is merely a way station, before we are returned to a post entropic universe.

What is a post-entropic universe? Can a universe exist without entropy? I think entropy is essential for a universe to exist. Without entropy, it would be possible for heat to flow from a hotter body to a colder body, for instance, etc. Nothing would inhibit energy transfer in either direction, energy could accumulate spontaneously. This would be a strange universe.

[Jor-el]

2 hours ago, StarMountainKid said:

What is a post-entropic universe? Can a universe exist without entropy? I think entropy is essential for a universe to exist. Without entropy, it would be possible for heat to flow from a hotter body to a colder body, for instance, etc. Nothing would inhibit energy transfer in either direction, energy could accumulate spontaneously. This would be a strange universe.

Yes it would. A closed system with complete energy renewal. No loss. No death. Eternal stars. Eternal life. 

[StarMountainKid]

5 minutes ago, Jor-el said:

Yes it would. A closed system with complete energy renewal. No loss. No death. Eternal stars. Eternal life.

How would this universe come to exist? In a closed system, entropy increases, resulting in disorder from order and creates an equilibrium.  In a universe without entropy, order and disorder would be equally probable randomly. I don't think a universe evolving to us would be possible in this scenario.

 

 

 

[back to earth]

21 hours ago, Ehrman Pagels 1 said:

If you are asking me, then my Christian faith is definitely "some other version" -- my otherworldly version. Peace.

I was responding to this :   "    Give us your commentary on the following: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."  

One Christian version might be the interpretation that if you are good now, you get your reward in heaven .  Another Christian version might be  the    ' Liberation Theology' version of Christianity ;   'THis is BS and a tool of oppression, they want you not to fight back so they can oppress you , and to wait until you die , then there will be fairness .   After all, jesus cleared the temple , he came to bring a sword not peace, the Lord helps those that help themselves , throw off the oppressors and here , take these grandes, machine guns and a black beret  and come with us. " 

           

 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

 

<shrug >   its another 'reason'  for religion  .... albeit one a bit out of the norm . 

[back to earth]

7 hours ago, StarMountainKid said:

I remember talking to a co-worker and saying I was interested in Buddhism. He said, "How is that going to get you into Heaven?"

D id you answer ;  ' It won't but I will wave to you as I pass by on my way to Nirvana  . "   ?       

[back to earth]

5 hours ago, Jor-el said:

They versions don't matter, it is their effect that does. Ultimately they are all fighting the same war on the same side.

Not according to liberation theology . 

[back to earth]

39 minutes ago, StarMountainKid said:

How would this universe come to exist? In a closed system, entropy increases, resulting in disorder from order and creates an equilibrium.  In a universe without entropy, order and disorder would be equally probable randomly. I don't think a universe evolving to us would be possible in this scenario.

 

Maybe that is why those attached to this scenario dont believe in evolution     

[StarMountainKid]

4 minutes ago, back to earth said:

D id you answer ;  ' It won't but I will wave to you as I pass by on my way to Nirvana  . "   ?       

Actually, in my naivete I was shocked at his comment. Makes me think the real reason for people to believe in religion is the promise of life after death in some paradise. The morality stuff everyone conveniently ignores anyway, believing I guess their sins will be forgiven.

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

14 hours ago, StarMountainKid said:

I remember talking to a co-worker and saying I was interested in Buddhism. He said, "How is that going to get you into Heaven?"

When it comes to Christian "Heaven," or the Third Heaven to be precise, there is not much I can say since I have never been there, and apparently, no human being "...has ever gone into Heaven, except the one who came from heaven -- the Son of Man (or Jesus Christ)," according to the Bible. Everything I know about this place comes mostly from the Bible, and the Gnostic pleroma with the liberation of Sophia through the guidance of Christ(os) is another story.

I hope to be in Heaven one day, and I believe I will be in Heaven one day...but there is also a place called Paradise (and it is not the Third Heaven), and many people confuse the two. Long story.  

As a Christian, it is not my place to tell someone to lose hope. There is a difference between sharing the "Good News" and scaring someone to accept Christianity. There is so much to say about the Christian world, and there are Christians who prefer to ignore their history, let alone deal with other sects' interpretations.

Peace.

 

[Jor-el]

7 hours ago, StarMountainKid said:

How would this universe come to exist? In a closed system, entropy increases, resulting in disorder from order and creates an equilibrium.  In a universe without entropy, order and disorder would be equally probable randomly. I don't think a universe evolving to us would be possible in this scenario.

It would come to exist artificially, just as this one did. Universes are as much constructs as the rules that govern them.

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

12 hours ago, Jor-el said:

Hi Ehrman Pagels 1,

I like your name by the way, interesting choice there.

Thank you.

--------------------

When France held up the banner of Fraternity, Equality and Liberty, it is because it learnt the value of those intrinsic qualities after repression. When America wrote in its Declaration of Independence: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness", they did so due to the knowledge acquired by the previous dissemination of those thoughts by religion taken a step further and imprinting this in a secular context, brought forth by the enlightenment once again.

So when I say that the purpose of religion is to keep these concepts alive, thus providing the cornerstone of future regenerations of civilized thought, they are in effect helping us to never forget these truths, even if the societies we live in have forgotten them. Ultimately they will fall, but these thoughts will not die away because religions will adapt, and the message will continue on always, always fighting entropy that undermines human endeavor, from morality to politics to philosophy and war.

There is nothing good about this world, and nothing in this world can liberate you, according to Christian Gnosticism. Christ is the one who comes down from the pleroma or "Heaven" to give knowledge for one's liberation. "Good deeds" are bad if they only perpetuate this world.  

Jains have starved themselves to death to not be part of this world...

Truth? Earthly truth is relative, according these religions. The only good truth on earth, at least to them, is not to be part of this world.

Wasn't it Christ who said, "My kingdom is not of this world"?

 

[Frank Merton]

I don't have a strong view here, but my guess is that religion evolved out of animism, where aspects of nature are seen, not so much as gods but just as beings with emotions like people have, so greeting a mountain in the morning is just being polite (although it is a good thing to not have the mountain think you are a rude person).

In the earliest religions of which there is written religion, the celestial objects (moon, sun, etc.) are gods, I guess, whatever a "god" is -- clearly something more important than just another sort of being -- something to worship and have a priesthood for.  Being a priest ain't a bad job, so once the idea got going I'm sure there were supporters.

[+Sherapy]

On 2/18/2017 at 7:08 AM, Jor-el said:

Lately I've been thinking a lot about the underlying reasons as to why people believe in their religion, what motivates them besides the message they have taken to heart. One of the things that I have found is that religion, no matter what it is seems to have a common thread in peoples motivations, something that they can all relate to, even if they can't relate to the other religions beside their own.

The conclusion I have come to is that no matter what religion one belongs to, it is a decision to become involved and actively take a side in a war. Not a war against other people, although many times it comes down to that as well, although that is an unintended consequence, not because of those people believing differently from themselves.

The war is actually quite old, as old as intelligence itself, it is a war against entropy.

Let's look at this carefully. Entropy is the movement of a system toward a lower energy state, it is also the reason for death, it is the reason why democracies will end in dictatorships and laws that are fair eventually seem to be abandoned as too restrictive. It is why morality degrades over time. It is the reasons why old orders pass away and new orders whether they be political, social or even moral have to periodically be reinstituted, the old done away with as corrupt.

So why is religion important to this issue? Because religion alone fights entropy. We take in hand the theme of being creators, in the image of the creator, and we bring to life, we decrease entropy, not only by our beliefs and actions but because we know that entropy is the single cause of human suffering.

 

What say you?

I say the better inquiry for you is exploring what religion is in the context of how you are using it in your life and the feedback you are actually getting form your experiences with it. Based on your posts, only, ( this is meant respectfully) and it is only  IMO it seems you are trying to convince yourself and us that it has some inherent practical value. I am not saying religion can't have value or be pragmatic and viable. Because it can be. I am saying your posts are not revealing much in the way of this. You present it like a "get rich scheme," so my question would be how has it enriched you in practical terms? 

[Jor-el]

10 hours ago, Ehrman Pagels 1 said:

There is nothing good about this world, and nothing in this world can liberate you, according to Christian Gnosticism. Christ is the one who comes down from the pleroma or "Heaven" to give knowledge for one's liberation. "Good deeds" are bad if they only perpetuate this world.  

Jains have starved themselves to death to not be part of this world...

Truth? Earthly truth is relative, according these religions. The only good truth on earth, at least to them, is not to be part of this world.

Wasn't it Christ who said, "My kingdom is not of this world"?

I would disagree with that perspective, due to the simple fact that mankind was purposefully created to inhabit the physical realm. Mankind was not created spirit to inhabit the spiritual realm, A body, a physical vehicle was created for us to inhabit and in so doing affect the physical realm. It is here that our purpose lies. The promises given to humanity for example, in the bible are quite clear, not only in the description of the manner and reasons for our creation but also as to our ultimate purpose in Gods plans for humanity, and they all lie within the physical dominion that was given to mankind.

The very last chapter of the bible shows us our destiny and it aint in heaven playing little harps. Hence the promise of the resurrection in an immortal but physical body.

Christ's kingdom is not of this world... as it is now. But Christ also promises a lot of other things, among them the fact that he will return and ultimately a new universe and a new Earth will arise, one that is not subject to entropy as this universe is.

[Jor-el]

10 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

I don't have a strong view here, but my guess is that religion evolved out of animism, where aspects of nature are seen, not so much as gods but just as beings with emotions like people have, so greeting a mountain in the morning is just being polite (although it is a good thing to not have the mountain think you are a rude person).

In the earliest religions of which there is written religion, the celestial objects (moon, sun, etc.) are gods, I guess, whatever a "god" is -- clearly something more important than just another sort of being -- something to worship and have a priesthood for.  Being a priest ain't a bad job, so once the idea got going I'm sure there were supporters.

Religion is as old as intelligence, where one would question the universe and try to make it submit to our understanding. Animism is merely one of such attempts at understanding, and in my view it is not even the oldest of these attempts.

It is interesting though that the fight to live has always been with us and they are also an attempt to overcome entropy. The fight against entropy as I have said is the ultimate fight of humanity and religion plays a central role in keeping that fight going, hence the reason for religion. That somehow most people subconsciously or consciously determined this for themselves allowed religion to grow into the fundamental structure it occupies in human endeavors.

[Jor-el]

3 hours ago, Sherapy said:

I say the better inquiry for you is exploring what religion is in the context of how you are using it in your life and the feedback you are actually getting form your experiences with it. Based on your posts, only, ( this is meant respectfully) and it is only  IMO it seems you are trying to convince yourself and us that it has some inherent practical value. I am not saying religion can't have value or be pragmatic and viable. Because it can be. I am saying your posts are not revealing much in the way of this. You present it like a "get rich scheme," so my question would be how has it enriched you in practical terms? 

AS I said in my very first post, these are thoughts that I have played around with lately, they are the product of my own introspection on the subject which I decided to share on this board and thus welcome the intervention of others who may have new insights into the question.

Before ever posting on this topic I did indeed do all you suggested but that can only go so far, can it not?

Religion as I beheld it in my own personal experience according to my own beliefs, was largely worthless, but then why such an active participation by humanity in religions of all kinds throughout the history of the human race? There must be something there that actually can do something that is not readily apparent. Something that attracts humanity to these systems of belief and thought. It is not merely the idea that they offer answers to questions about ourselves and our future as individuals, or that they offer a hope that is not found in other aspects of life. Most people will only be attracted to a point regarding these issues but not enough to make them the cornerstones of human thought for millennia. So what was that thing that provided such an attraction?

Well, that is what I am sharing here, my conclusions on the matter. Some people will see what I am trying to say immediately, to others my thoughts will seem to be disjointed and weird. To others yet, it will completely pass them by and they will move on to more interesting subjects all too soon.

I did indeed come to a conclusion that religion does a have an inherent and practical application, much to my own surprise as well. It certainly is not a "get rich scheme", because ultimately it means taking the hard path instead of the easy path. Of being a conduit for change for the good and upliftment of mankind, because only through those actions (much more than the individual beliefs) can entropy be combated and overcome.

With every choice you either aid entropy or combat it. With every choice, with every attitude, you make the world into the image you wish it to be, even when you don't realize that you are actually doing this. Religions role is central to this endeavor, it is the reason for its existence.