Team Trump's Complex Web of Ties With Russia

[Yamato]

$700,000 in Russian banked lobbying money to lobby for ending Hillary's economic sanctions on Russia would be reasonably cordial.   2820 DNS lookups with the Trump organization servers from Alfa Bank would also qualify.  Secretaries of State like the Order of Friendship Award winner Rex Tillerson aren't accidents.   They're deliberate and cordial too.   You can cordially compete, Manfred.  I always like to think that's how it works in the free market.

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, Yamato said:

Of course Hillary has lobbyist grease all over her, everyone knows that, even her supporters.   Dem lobbyists taking money from Russian banks after practicing economic warfare on Russia shouldn't be a problem for Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump.  To the best of our knowledge,    Hillary wasn't making any public comments favorable towards Russia, she was the SoS hawk who punished them in the first place.   Putin gained access to the Dem servers, and it was a fun "I love Wikileaks!" party while it lasted.

Putin is a total Don.  He hit us with an atomic political bomb.   Now he's sitting back in his recliner smoking a huge Cuban cigar with a huge smile on his face watching us crack.   He's got the dirt on Trump too.  There's too many signs for it to be dismissed.

We've been meddling with the politics of other nations for years, even Russia's and that of our friends. We've been given a heaping helping of humble pie and a much needed dose of our own medicine. Cyber War is coming into it's own and the Jack of Shadows is always ready to lay low the unwary. You are right; what ever his personal ambitions, Putin is a patriot and the quintessential Russian oligarch. Under him, Mother Russia will not back down from what she sees as vital to her national interests. Russia has a right to expect a modicum of respect. It's something the Obama administration eschewed giving. They were too engrossed with ideology at the expense of practical diplomacy.

I'm not much into signs and portents or the swirl of tea leaves at the bottom of the cup. What kind of scenario can you possibly imagine where it would benefit Russia to spill the beans on an intractable Trump? To show to all the world they had tried to blackmail a sitting President would make them a pariah state on a order many times worse than their present situation.

[Claire.]

3 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

And the chances of them answering honestly are less or greater than a fraction of one percent, would you say? 

The chances of them not answering at all at this point in time are even greater.

At the end of it, they will either have something or nothing. There's no point speculating.

[Yamato]

LOL

[White Unicorn]

On 3/11/2017 at 3:38 PM, ChaosRose said:

I feel the need to quote George Carlin here. Edited to abide by the rules. 

• There's a reason for this, there's a reason education sucks, and it's the same reason it will never ever ever be fixed. It's never going to get any better. Don't look for it. Be happy with what you've got... because the owners of this country don’t want that. I'm talking about the real owners now... the real owners. The big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don’t. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought and paid for the Senate, the Congress, the state houses, the city halls. They got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies, so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. They got you by the balls. They spend billions of dollars every year lobbying. Lobbying to get what they want. Well, we know what they want. They want more for themselves and less for everybody else, but I’ll tell you what they don’t want. They don’t want a population of citizens capable of critical thinking. They don’t want well-informed, well-educated people capable of critical thinking. They’re not interested in that. That doesn’t help them. That’s against their interests. That’s right.
•  
• They don’t want people who are smart enough to sit around a kitchen table and think about how badly they’re getting ****** by a system that threw them overboard 30 ******* years ago. They don’t want that. You know what they want? They want obedient workers. Obedient workers, people who are just smart enough to run the machines and do the paperwork. And just dumb enough to passively accept all these increasingly ******** jobs with the lower pay, the longer hours, the reduced benefits, the end of overtime and vanishing pension that disappears the minute you go to collect it. And now they’re coming for your Social Security money. They want your *******retirement money. They want it back so they can give it to their criminal friends on Wall Street. And you know something? They’ll get it. They’ll get it all from you sooner or later 'cause they own this ******* place. It’s a big club and you ain't in it. You and I are not in the big club. ...The table is tilted, folks. The game is rigged and nobody seems to notice. ...And nobody seems to notice. Nobody seems to care. That’s what the owners count on. The fact that Americans will probably remain willfully ignorant of the big red, white and blue **** that’s being jammed up their ******** every day, because the owners of this country know the truth. It’s called the American Dream, 'cause you have to be asleep to believe it.

If Americans only paid as much attention to politics as sports it might be different.

Freedom and rights aren't free but many voters don't want to believe that's still the case, is still a fragile experiment of our founding fathers.

Edited March 26, 2017 by White Unicorn

[Lilly]

Talking to and meeting with the Russian Ambassador and/or doing legal business with Russia isn't enough to prove collusion to throw the US election. This is where things get weird IMO...and why the FBI needs to really get to the bottom of all this (and soon).

BTW, few people seem to be aware that Democrats (not just Republicans) have met with the Russians as well: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4281760/Six-Democrats-met-Russian-Ambassador-past.html

So, just having contact with Russians isn't going to 'hack it' when it comes to accusations of trying to throw the 2016 election. We need to wait until the FBI finishes their investigation.

[SHaYap]

Jared to be 'interviewed' by The Senate Intelligence Committee ...

~

 

Quote

 

The panel wants to ask Kushner about two meetings arranged with Russian Ambassador Sergei Kislyak at Trump Tower in New York in December, as well as a meeting with the head of Russia's state-owned development bank, the Times reported, citing unidentified administration and congressional officials.

 

The bank, Vnesheconombank, was among the Russian banks sanctioned by the Obama administration in 2014 after Russia annexed Ukraine's Crimea.

 

 

 

Monday, 27 March 2017 | MYT 9:42 PM

• Reuters the Star online link

~

[Lilly]

Well, in December the election was over and this was the transition team. From what I know it would not be unusual for a transition team to meet with any world leaders (even Russia). It's not simply contact with Russia, it's what type of contact, when it took place, what was discussed etc. that matters.

[preacherman76]

Following these stories it clear the press is counting on the ignorance of those who have no idea how government is run.

[+Liquid Gardens]

58 minutes ago, Lilly said:

BTW, few people seem to be aware that Democrats (not just Republicans) have met with the Russians as well: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4281760/Six-Democrats-met-Russian-Ambassador-past.html

Did the Democrats deny that they had any contact with the Russians?  Was there evidence of Russia meddling with/hacking something like an election around the time the Democrats met with the Russians?  If not, apples, meet oranges.

[Yamato]

It's important to know what we're hiding for or with Russia, not to spite the election, but granted the election.

It's also important that our officials don't commit perjury, regardless of what country they're talking about and regardless of an election or the lack thereof.  

If potentially lying about having sex with an intern is important, potentially lying about contacts or relationships with other countries is also important.   The subjective details of any perjury and the character of the media at the time including who in the media said what, or who else in the other political party said what, doesn't determine right from wrong or legal from illegal or the presence of a crime vs absence.  

This isn't a perjury trial and very likely never will be.  But the examples of inaccurate statements we're collecting from members of the Trump admin including Trump himself are incriminating.

Secret dealings with Russia are problematic for what should be obvious reasons.  We don't see eye to eye on the top of the neocons' priorities list Syria and Iran, we don't share common goals in the world and we don't share much with communism in general.   Putin is being mythified lately especially in alternative Trump-fed media circles but he's not the do-gooder hero he's suddenly being portrayed as.   People who've been misled to believe that Putin is a good guy haven't done any homework.

Even in theoretical examples we can discuss where common ground between countries can theoretically be found like working together with Russia in Syria, that's not an issue that can be decided between Trump and Putin either, it's a matter to be determined by and only by Assad.   So what we're doing to/with/for Russia that we're so not-interested in disclosing, beyond the generic speculations cast by media figures of "better relations", there's no particular benefits to this country that have been specified.   We could have better relations with North Korea too it doesn't make working behind closed doors with Kim Jong Un an appealing prospect either.   But if you're going to work with him, admit it.  Don't hide it or do it and say you didn't.

Now we have yet another Putin critic that wound up dead.  

http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/23/europe/ukraine-former-russian-lawmaker-denis-voronenkov-killed/

[Lilly]

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Did the Democrats deny that they had any contact with the Russians?  Was there evidence of Russia meddling with/hacking something like an election around the time the Democrats met with the Russians?  If not, apples, meet oranges.

Ms Pelosi did indeed deny meeting the Russian Ambassador but claimed it was "different" in her case: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/mar/5/nancy-pelosi-calls-her-denial-of-meeting-russian-e/

Now, it may very well have been "different" or perhaps not so much. Until the FBI comes back and tells us if Trump campaign was just schmoozing with the Russians (like the re-set button stuff) or if they were involved in some criminal scheme to throw the election...we simply don't know what's an apple and what's an orange.

[+Liquid Gardens]

20 minutes ago, Lilly said:

Ms Pelosi did indeed deny meeting the Russian Ambassador but claimed it was "different" in her case: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/mar/5/nancy-pelosi-calls-her-denial-of-meeting-russian-e/

What was going on in 2010 when the Pelosi photo was taken, anything related to Russia interfering with something?

Quote

Until the FBI comes back and tells us if Trump campaign was just schmoozing with the Russians (like the re-set button stuff) or if they were involved in some criminal scheme to throw the election...we simply don't know what's an apple and what's an orange

Situation 1:

- Pelosi at some time (not sure when she denied it) said she didn't meet with the Russian Ambassador

- 2010 photo is found of her meeting the ambassador

- Possibly additional relevant context that I'm not aware of

 

Situation 2:

- Sessions/Trump team denies having contact with Russians

- Russia 'hacked' election in favor of Trump

- Sessions found to have contact with ambassador in 2016

- Flynn had contact with Russians

- Trump former campaign chairman Manafort is linked to Russian interests

- FBI conducting ongoing investigation into contacts between the Trump team and Russia

 

Maybe we don't ultimately know what's an apple and what's an orange yet, but unless a lot more is added to Situation 1, I at least can tell the above are not both the same fruit.

 

[Lilly]

Team Trump denies having improper contact (aka collusion) with the Russians.

Russia actually influenced the 2016 election? When was this concluded? I must have missed something.

Contact with the Russian Ambassador is not disallowed.

Having business interests with Russia as a private citizen is not disallowed either.

To my knowledge FBI Director Comey has yet to come out and say the Trump team had improper contact (aka collusion) with Russia.

But yes, there is indeed an investigation into the contact between team Trump and Russia.

 

 

[Myles]

30 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

- Russia 'hacked' election in favor of Trump

 

Not sure of that. 

Many European countries pledged support to Hillary in an attempt to sway the election.  

[Space Commander Travis]

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

- Russia 'hacked' election in favor of Trump

How did they do that?

[Space Commander Travis]

1 hour ago, Lilly said:

Contact with the Russian Ambassador is not disallowed.

that's what a bloody Ambassador's for!! I really do despair, or rather I don't despair, it makes me laugh too much, to see the absolute idiocy that those desperate to bring down Trump and reinstate The Blessed Hillary in her rightful place resort to. 

[+Liquid Gardens]

1 hour ago, Lilly said:

Team Trump denies having improper contact (aka collusion) with the Russians.

So?  You're not actually arguing that Team Trump/Trump himself has a good track record of telling the truth?

Quote

Russia actually influenced the 2016 election? When was this concluded? I must have missed something.

From https://www.us-cert.gov/sites/default/files/publications/JAR_16-20296A_GRIZZLY STEPPE-2016-1229.pdf

"This Joint Analysis Report (JAR) is the result of analytic efforts between the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). This document provides technical details regarding the tools and infrastructure used by the Russian civilian and military intelligence Services (RIS) to compromise and exploit networks and endpoints associated with the U.S. election, as well as a range of U.S. Government, political, and private sector entities. The U.S. Government is referring to this malicious cyber activity by RIS as GRIZZLY STEPPE.

Previous JARs have not attributed malicious cyber activity to specific countries or threat actors. However, public attribution of these activities to RIS is supported by technical indicators from the U.S. Intelligence Community, DHS, FBI, the private sector, and other entities."

From https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3254237/Russia-Hack-Report.pdf

"We assess Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US presidential election. Russia’s goals were to undermine public faith in the US democratic process, denigrate Secretary Clinton, and harm her electability and potential presidency. We further assess Putin and the Russian Government developed a clear preference for President-elect Trump. We have high confidence in these judgments."

I'm assuming we are not going to demand some measurement of the 'actual influence' of this activity.  After all, I don't think there's any measurement of the 'actual influence' on anything at all as a result of '"the media's" supposed leftward bias, which doesn't prevent its mention with some frequency.

Quote

But yes, there is indeed an investigation into the contact between team Trump and Russia.

And in relation to the comparison with Pelosi in 2010, what is the corresponding context to this fact in Pelosi's situation?  Maybe I'm misreading why you put the word 'different' in scare quotes, it sure sounded like you were questioning whether the situation with her was really any different.

[Space Commander Travis]

4 hours ago, Yamato said:

Now we have yet another Putin critic that wound up dead.  

"www.cnn.com"? Well, that must be the truth, then. 

[Space Commander Travis]

7 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

From https://www.us-cert.gov/sites/default/files/publications/JAR_16-20296A_GRIZZLY STEPPE-2016-1229.pdf

Oh for crap's sake man, "Grizzly Steppe"? You take that very far sub-Tom Clancy bilge seriously? Particularly when we know that the CIA makes a career out of staging false flag operations against whoever it likes all around the world, and part of those was to stage cyberattacks or mere hacks and leave fingerprints all over them to make it look as if the Russkies was behind it?

We assess Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the US presidential election. Russia’s goals were to undermine public faith in the US democratic process, denigrate Secretary Clinton, and harm her electability and potential presidency.

Sorry, I fell off my chair there with laughing. I think the "Democratic" Party did that themselves by selecting her as their candidate and stealing the votes that Bernie had received and giving them to The Blessed Hillary.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Manfred von Dreidecker

[Space Commander Travis]

Boris

Edited March 27, 2017 by Manfred von Dreidecker

[+Liquid Gardens]

Just now, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Oh for crap's sake man, "Grizzly Steppe"? You take that very far sub-Tom Clancy bilge seriously? Particularly when we know that the CIA makes a career out of staging false flag operations against whoever it likes all around the world, and part of those was to stage cyberattacks or mere hacks and leave fingerprints all over them to make it look as if the Russkies was behind it?

Ha, nice 'rebuttal'.  You must not have spent too much time in the Conspiracies section here at UM; everything can be 'refuted' with the tired ol', "your source has no credibility because you haven't yet ruled out a conspiracy that I have absolutely no evidence for".

[Space Commander Travis]

Just now, Liquid Gardens said:

Ha, nice 'rebuttal'.  You must not have spent too much time in the Conspiracies section here at UM; everything can be 'refuted' with the tired ol', "your source has no credibility because you haven't yet ruled out a conspiracy that I have absolutely no evidence for".

Your "source", being an organisation that exists for the purpose of lying, can hardly be taken as a neutral source, can it. 

Anyway, do you, as I said, really believe that it was only because the Vile Russkies sabotaged her that The Blessed Hillary isn't where she should be right now? 

 

[Space Commander Travis]

Actually it is true that The Blessed Hillary isn't where she should be right now; if Trump had been true to his word she'd have been facing trial for war crimes. Is it ok that The Blessed Hillary conspired to overthrow foreign governments, something that the Obama administration went on to do or attempt to do numerous other times, while it's a suitable casus belli for America's full righteous retaliation that the Foul Russkies possibly leaked some emails that were embarrassing to the ruling party?  

[Lilly]

22 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

So?  You're not actually arguing that Team Trump/Trump himself has a good track record of telling the truth?

 

Oh hell no, no politician tells the truth all the time (probably more like most of the time).

As for Ms Pelosi, she's the one who said her denial of meeting the Russian Ambassador was "different" (wasn't me who said it that's why I put it in quotations). I say, hell no to that explanation as well.