The Lost Tribe of Clover Hollow

[stereologist]

There are also patterns called graphical textures seen in rocks because they make us think of writing. Of course, this is not the pattern you are seeing the surface rocks in the area you examined.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphic_texture

 

[BlueHeron]

25 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Yes but your belief is based on you seeing shapes in rocks. That can be done anywhere and famously you can do so by looking at clouds. Do you have any evidence that doesn't involve you seeing things in common rocks?

Stone tools? Habitation or burial site?

The State Archaeologist of Virginia identified a Paleoindian village site on the National Historic Registry right around the corner from this property. Numerous tools and evidence of habitation were found. We theorized that the Paleoindians lived on that site and possibly buried their dead on the site in question as it was perfect with all the rock formations with small caves with many nooks and crannies. We agreed that if there are  burial sites on the mountain they weren't to be disturbed or desecrated ever. Only a very limited area of this site has been searched. The archaeologist readily admitted he has never seen anything like this site but refused to go any further than that. He was particularly interested in this particular rock. Sorry, that's all I got for the answer to your question.

[BlueHeron]

1 hour ago, stereologist said:

Tawney's Cave is another in the area. It is much smaller than Clover Hollow Cave. Most people are familiar with Tawney's Cave since it is not restricted access.  The much larger Clover Hollow Cave begins with a 130 foot rappel.

The only restricted cave I had heard of was in the Clover Hollow Natural Preserve Area and called the Stay High Cave, but it must have been called the Clover Hollow Cave at times. Thanks for the info.

[Oniomancer]

1 hour ago, BlueHeron said:

Do you know if this was an isolated location or was it like this all over the place in that area? My theory on the petroglyphs in Clover Hollow are that they are manmade enhancements to already weathered rock formations. That was the method to the artists madness. If you go that way.

Can't say offhand but I've seen enough pictures of similar patterns to venture that they're fairly common in compact limestones that have undergone heavy fracturing. The narrowness of the veins limits their being readily id'd as such to casual observation.

[back to earth]

10 hours ago, Harte said:

What do the ages of the mountains and rivers have to do with the timeline of occupation?

If there is anything to this (and there appears not to be,) then you are talking about a culture, not a civilization.

To paraphrase kmt_sesh, If you can't even get basic vocabulary correct, why on Earth should we trust you with unverified speculation?

Harte

[back to earth]

8 hours ago, BlueHeron said:

One definition of a civilization is the society, culture, and way of life of a particular area. The word culture is a synonym for the word civilization. So i'm not sure who's got their terms wrong. When examining this site that's the number one question I had. What were the cultural influences that would lead me to believe that an ancient civilization existed here? My book goes into great detail on this so yes I'm trying to advertise my book which documents the incredible backstory and is based on historical, scientific, geological, and archaeological research, coupled with Cherokee folklore and a huge dose of speculation. Just some of the cultural influences I have detected at the site:

1. Iconoclastic phenomena at the site -one civilization building on top of another.

2. Before Europeans came to the area, this was the scared hunting grounds of the Cherokee, along with other tribes.

3. This is a very strategic piece of land going back thousands of years.

4. Stone alignments suggesting possible archaeoastronomy was practiced here.

5. Hundreds of portable carved artifacts found buried around the megalithic structures, suggesting religious aspects (the ultimate definition of a culture).

6. Specific artistic method applied to the rocks, suggesting an intelligent society once lived here.

7. Detailed in the book and the subject of future articles is evidence of a written pictograph language. (strong evidence of an ancient culture)

8. Documented on film, supernatural activity at the site. Supernatural activity by definition is evidence of an afterlife. If there is an afterlife there must of once been a life. (the haters are going to love this).

The book puts all this together in a specific timeline of occupation backed by the scientific evidence collected. How did I come to be at this place you might ask? Fifteen years ago I bought this piece of land and house sight unseen while I was in Papua New Guinea for my girlfriend to live in while she went to Vet School at Virginia Tech. After closing on this randomly purchased piece of property, I found out it was connected directly to three of my first generation grandfathers from 1738. They were the first European colonist to the area and picked out this site as a mill site. All coincidental you might ask, I think not.

 

 

[jmccr8]

I read both of the articles some time back at Ancient Origins but thought that given the information in them was somewhat sparse on scientific affirmations didn't give it much consideration. Are you going to post excerpts from your book that show research from credible sources? 

jmccr8

[BlueHeron]

3 minutes ago, back to earth said:

 

Kill the Ump!

[back to earth]

15 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

refer to Rule 1a:

• 1a. Advertising: Do not use the forum to advertise a product, site or service.

 

 

8 hours ago, BlueHeron said:

..... My book goes into great detail on this so yes I'm trying to advertise my book which documents the incredible backstory and is based on historical, scientific, geological, and archaeological research,

 

?

[back to earth]

5 minutes ago, back to earth said:

7 minutes ago, BlueHeron said:

Kill the Ump!

 

Ahhhh  ......  no ,  some of us are rather attached to our Umpire, he is very fair as well . I suggest you  pay some attention to his 'calls ' . 

 

Then again, you already 'got your end in' , so I dont suppose what happens now matters ?  

[BlueHeron]

6 minutes ago, back to earth said:

 

Ahhhh  ......  no ,  some of us are rather attached to our Umpire, he is very fair as well . I suggest you  pay some attention to his 'calls ' . 

 

Then again, you already 'got your end in' , so I dont suppose what happens now matters ?  

Nothing personal against the Ump, just a prime example of what a left brain society we have become. You would hate my book, it would be incomprehensible to you. There, that's some anti-advertisement. But, i don't suppose that matters.

[Tatetopa]

Greetings,

The southeastern United States is full of paleoindian sites from cave shelters to villages, towns, and monuments.  Go visit  Ocmulgee or one of the other sites maintained by the NPS, The Blue Ridge mountains for example are full of riverside settlements of the early woodland period.  Somewhere around 1000bce, people started building semi-permanent agricultural settlements from the Mississippi east to the Atlantic, at least across the southern US. Petroglyphs abound.  I don't know much about the northeast.  Muskogee and Creek people would probably call the Cherokees late coming interlopers. Ancient is a few thousand years in this area; still respectable. Most of our ancestors across the world were just learning to settle and farm.

Three may be some evidence for trade around the Gulf Coast between Yucatan and what is now Georgia and Florida. Times are exciting enough in the discovery of American archaeology without being linked to supernatural events.  That is kind of a red flag for me.

This is an area where "the Truth is out there", as Mulder would say.  New information is still being found. Every time a shopping center, housing development, or airport is build, artifacts and sites come to light.

If you have an interest or a feeling of kinship, immerse yourself in the effort to really understand what was going on here on Turtle Island for the last few thousand years before European contact.

[back to earth]

14 minutes ago, BlueHeron said:

Nothing personal against the Ump, just a prime example of what a left brain society we have become. You would hate my book, it would be incomprehensible to you. There, that's some anti-advertisement. But, i don't suppose that matters.

No it doesnt , any advertising is goood advertising , as they say , but the point is, you aren't supposed to be advertising, as you have been told , but you admit you still are advertising the book here . 

Its not that your book is incomprehensible, its  more that I can see what is going on here . You might not be able to, as you are right in the middle of it - that is , it is 'happening '  to you , it's your story and your' mythology',  strange coincidences are around your  land purchase, you have been led to there for a reason , you are claiming a lost civilisation of which no evidence is found, you talked some rubbish conflating culture and civilisation, it is all self definition and extension .   I seen it all before , a couple of times .  It seems unique to you , but not to the outside observer. 

Also, there is no point trying to debunk what you claim ... as, for a start you have offered absolutely  no evidence  whatsoever  so far  to debunk  ,  just claims , some rock images, a story , pictures with labels on them that show nothing .

The only thing I 'hate' is to tell you .... its all been done before .  Of course, if you can offer ANY REASONABLE  evidence , I shall cook and eat my hat ..... with mornay sauce     .

 

I think I  have a lot more understanding of your book than you realise         .

[BlueHeron]

5 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Three may be some evidence for trade around the Gulf Coast between Yucatan and what is now Georgia and Florida. Times are exciting enough in the discovery of American archaeology without being linked to supernatural events.  That is kind of a red flag for me.

I certainly agree with you mostly, but the story is what the story is. The mere mention of supernatural activity really offends a lot of people. I however could not ignore the documented evidence and it's significants to the total story. 

[Tatetopa]

9 hours ago, BlueHeron said:

2. Before Europeans came to the area, this was the scared hunting grounds of the Cherokee, along with other tribes.

Hunting grounds are not sacred.  They are the shared territory  of a people or clan.  In a subsistence culture it is important to have sufficient area for food gathering; people tend to chase out

 

9 hours ago, BlueHeron said:

3. This is a very strategic piece of land going back thousands of years.

There were trading trails north  south along mountain ridges and east west across the mountain barriers in watercourses. Flint is an item that appears in finds far from its origin.  It is difficult for me in this era to put value on a rock, but in pre-iron culture, this was a substance for tool making.  Maybe some high quality deposits were as famous as Damascus steel in their time, and so more highly prized than local goods and important enough for someone to carry on a backpack on foot from one town to another.  The clues abound. Sometimes a rock chip can tell you what people valued and where they came from or went.

9 hours ago, BlueHeron said:

6. Specific artistic method applied to the rocks, suggesting an intelligent society once lived here.

I have no doubt of that.   Sometimes it is a shock for us to realize that people we don't consider our genetic or cultural ancestors were also intelligent, interesting, and complex.

[back to earth]

19 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Greetings,

The southeastern United States is full of paleoindian sites from cave shelters to villages, towns, and monuments.  Go visit  Ocmulgee or one of the other sites maintained by the NPS, The Blue Ridge mountains for example are full of riverside settlements of the early woodland period.  Somewhere around 1000bce, people started building semi-permanent agricultural settlements from the Mississippi east to the Atlantic, at least across the southern US. Petroglyphs abound.  I don't know much about the northeast.  Muskogee and Creek people would probably call the Cherokees late coming interlopers. Ancient is a few thousand years in this area; still respectable. Most of our ancestors across the world were just learning to settle and farm.

Three may be some evidence for trade around the Gulf Coast between Yucatan and what is now Georgia and Florida. Times are exciting enough in the discovery of American archaeology without being linked to supernatural events.  That is kind of a red flag for me.

This is an area where "the Truth is out there", as Mulder would say.  New information is still being found. Every time a shopping center, housing development, or airport is build, artifacts and sites come to light.

If you have an interest or a feeling of kinship, immerse yourself in the effort to really understand what was going on here on Turtle Island for the last few thousand years before European contact.

 

I am not surprised at all that people can buy land there and find interesting things, artifacts ,signs of different  cultures  ... but 'lost civilisations '  ?    Come  now         It usually boils down to the claimant having to 'massage' their definition of 'civilisation' ( and try to massage every one else's to fit in with what they have found and claimed . 

Some interesting artifacts have been found here . Other locals might scoff ...  " In your own front yard  ? "  

Well, gee guys ; there is a big ridge to the south and the back of the property has  pass through it that leads down side ridges to the river , opposite a waterfall, any one walking into this  area would come that way .  people ( even modern people ... with a brain that is ) follow those natural paths ... they aint gonna walk down a cliff if there is an  easier path, and the reasons there was a camp site here is the same reason my house was built here , flat spot, away from flash storm run offs ,  gets an easterly breeze from the sea when its hot , easy access to river, fishing turtles , etc  . 

 

[BlueHeron]

3 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Hunting grounds are not sacred.  They are the shared territory  of a people or clan.  In a subsistence culture it is important to have sufficient area for food gathering; people tend to chase out

The Cherokee believed everything in nature was sacred and had their own spirit. They followed strict sacred guidelines when they killed for food.

[rashore]

22 minutes ago, BlueHeron said:

I certainly agree with you mostly, but the story is what the story is. The mere mention of supernatural activity really offends a lot of people. I however could not ignore the documented evidence and it's significants to the total story. 

I'm not a person that's offended by the word supernatural... What supernatural do you have to present to us?

[back to earth]

28 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

...... It is difficult for me in this era to put value on a rock, but in pre-iron culture, this was a substance for tool making.  Maybe some high quality deposits were as famous as Damascus steel in their time, and so more highly prized than local goods and important enough for someone to carry on a backpack on foot from one town to another.  

Yes .... this is interesting.  A guy I was talking to  here was amazed at the value some indigenous ( the more traditional ones) still place on ochre   (  'special ' ochre , that is .... good quality stuff ) .  he was staying at a camp and these two guys walked in with some trade goods, they had been walking for 3 days to get there, they traded and got two large wrapped in bark spheres of prepared ochre ( he said heavy enough that he could just lift them ) . They made a bark ring and balanced them on their head and set off the next day for 3 day walk back home. He was amazed at the time and energy they expended in this, as he rightly observed , it has no value, you cant eat it, use it to make tool or anything like like that, it only has cultural value .  Yes, I agreed , that IS its value . It's a hard thing for modern man to understand . 

 

Ochre MIne operating for 1000 s    of years up until the 1950s 

Some of the ochre  from this mine was traded all the way up to the Gulf, over  3000km 

 

pearl shell was another valuable commodity and had a vast trading network

Edited March 4, 2017 by back to earth

[back to earth]

10 minutes ago, rashore said:

I'm not a person that's offended by the word supernatural... What supernatural do you have to present to us?

     , yes, I find studying such things   (  such ancient cultures and settlements )  one cannot avoid what we call the 'supernatural'.

Just as our poster claims everything was sacred  ...... there was no   natural  / supernatural division ... as we have nowadays . 

So that cant really be used as an excuse to fob us off as 'unbelievers' ....  ummmm   ... that aint the stuff we are unbelievin about ! 

Of course  such ancient people were surrounded by 'spiritual' and 'supernatural' beliefs stories and myths !    

[rashore]

6 minutes ago, back to earth said:

     , yes, I find studying such things   (  such ancient cultures and settlements )  one cannot avoid what we call the 'supernatural'.

Just as our poster claims everything was sacred  ...... there was no   natural  / supernatural division ... as we have nowadays . 

So that cant really be used as an excuse to fob us off as 'unbelievers' ....  ummmm   ... that aint the stuff we are unbelievin about ! 

Of course  such ancient people were surrounded by 'spiritual' and 'supernatural' beliefs stories and myths !    

Pttttht, stories and lore. Not that it isn't important within historical context... and I am sharing your eyeroll there, that part so far has been fairly underwhelming. But dang, the OP is claiming documented, and even film documentation of supernatural. Supernatural what? We don't know, could be anything, OP hasn't told us. But of course I'm curious as to what documented proof of what kind of supernatural the OP has to present to us here. Especially since he's presenting it as such an important of his whole story. Besides, when don't we press for "present the proof" when someone claims to have some?

 

[BlueHeron]

9 minutes ago, rashore said:

I'm not a person that's offended by the word supernatural... What supernatural do you have to present to us?

I have significant documented evidence in the way of photographs and video taken at the site. They play a major role in the overall story I'm trying to present. I have a few video's posted on my website which i'm not supposed to talk about and many in my book which i'm not supposed to talk about. oh, I do have a youtube channel also but i imagine that's off limits also. The trouble is if I post still photo's which I can do, they will be accused of being photoshopped  or whatever, but i don't mind. My supernatural activity has nothing to do with a haunting in any way but more of a communication event. I know there is no context here, but I have more. The video is more compelling but very controversial. They really don't mean much without context and explanation. I go into heavy explanation in my book. whoops. I can only put up one photo at a time. Thanks for asking though. It is funny however from my experience the rock carvings if thats what they are, are frowned upon, but the supernatural part fascinates a lot of people. Even the State Archaeologist was more interested in the paranormal activity than the petroglyphs. Maybe I was wrong and it's the rock carvings that p*** people off more than the supernatural. We shall see. Thanks for asking though.

[BlueHeron]

here is a few of the video's on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj2NCiH7xZo&t=65s

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sq6rijzwonQ

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ig8oy_kwps

 

 

I've deleted any reference to the book or website. 

[rashore]

12 minutes ago, BlueHeron said:

I have significant documented evidence in the way of photographs and video taken at the site. They play a major role in the overall story I'm trying to present. I have a few video's posted on my website which i'm not supposed to talk about and many in my book which i'm not supposed to talk about. oh, I do have a youtube channel also but i imagine that's off limits also. The trouble is if I post still photo's which I can do, they will be accused of being photoshopped  or whatever, but i don't mind.

Sorry to snip the rest, but I wanted to address this as a moderator.. I think you might be having some misunderstanding about posting here on UM. You say you aren't supposed to talk about your videos, website, book. That simply isn't true. However, how you talk about it does fall within some site rules. If you keep telling or suggesting people go off site to read or watch your publications, that's a no-no. If you want to just CCP stuff and link drop without discussing the contents further that's frowned upon too. But if you want to share information from those sources here on UM- and make sure you cite them when you do, just like you would if you were citing any other author or website or book- and also discuss them here, then that is a good thing. We have had a handful or few authors here on UM that have been able to discuss their publications here on UM. It's a fine line that authors walk though. Many more authors have come to UM and fell into the self promoting side rather than discussion about their subject. Just be careful and keep the forum rules in mind.

And just because.. a friendly reminder to everyone to keep forum rules in mind when posting please. This is a neat topic so far

 

[Hanslune]

3 hours ago, BlueHeron said:

The State Archaeologist of Virginia identified a Paleoindian village site on the National Historic Registry right around the corner from this property. Numerous tools and evidence of habitation were found. We theorized that the Paleoindians lived on that site and possibly buried their dead on the site in question as it was perfect with all the rock formations with small caves with many nooks and crannies. Only a very limited area of this site has been searched. The archaeologist readily admitted he has never seen anything like this site but refused to go any further than that. He was particularly interested in this particular rock. Sorry, that's all I got for the answer to your question.

 

Link to the Paleoindian village site please

Name of the State archaeologist of Virginia who stated this?

Quote

We agreed that if there are  burial sites on the mountain they weren't to be disturbed or desecrated ever.

Please show us this agreement and the law under which it is enacted and enforced.

Why would that rock be of interest to an archaeologist?