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The Lost Tribe of Clover Hollow


BlueHeron

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5 hours ago, BlueHeron said:

Left brain, right brain I always say. Where was this photograph taken?

You would appear to be basing part of your speculation on an outmoded and disproven bit of popular mythology ie left brain/right brain processing and associated dominance:

http://www.livescience.com/39373-left-brain-right-brain-myth.html

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/left-brain-right-brain-myth/

As to your articles: It would appear that no photographic documentation of diagnostic artifacts has, to date, been publicly presented. Nor would there appear to be any indication of petroglyphs. Your impressions would appear to be heavily influenced by pareidolia.

.

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36 minutes ago, BlueHeron said:

I have significant documented evidence in the way of photographs and video taken at the site. They play a major role in the overall story I'm trying to present. ...

orbs-17 copy.jpg

Ermmmm     that pic really means nothing .  It might to you but I certainly have no idea what the posting of it was supposed to achieve ? :huh:

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9 minutes ago, rashore said:

Sorry to snip the rest, but I wanted to address this as a moderator.. I think you might be having some misunderstanding about posting here on UM. You say you aren't supposed to talk about your videos, website, book. That simply isn't true. However, how you talk about it does fall within some site rules. If you keep telling or suggesting people go off site to read or watch your publications, that's a no-no. If you want to just CCP stuff and link drop without discussing the contents further that's frowned upon too. But if you want to share information from those sources here on UM- and make sure you cite them when you do, just like you would if you were citing any other author or website or book- and also discuss them here, then that is a good thing. We have had a handful or few authors here on UM that have been able to discuss their publications here on UM. It's a fine line that authors walk though. Many more authors have come to UM and fell into the self promoting side rather than discussion about their subject. Just be careful and keep the forum rules in mind.

And just because.. a friendly reminder to everyone to keep forum rules in mind when posting please. This is a neat topic so far :tu:

 

Thanks for this. I am a newby to forums and admittedly started out very clumsy. If anybody wants any context on the above videos I would be glad to oblige.

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9 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Ermmmm     that pic really means nothing .  It might to you but I certainly have no idea what the posting of it was supposed to achieve ? :huh:

Told you it was a mistake to publish any paranormal photos. It wouldn't matter what the context was.

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Look , why dont you stop beating around the bush and being silly and get back to the basics of your story, offer up something to us instead of innuendo and referring to your book  and  segwaying to the supernatural and all that . 

You could start by actually answering some of the very valid questions so far put  to you ;

If you can't even get basic, verifiable info (it took me approximately 15 seconds to find the relevant data) correct, why on Earth should we trust you with unverified speculation?

What evidence do you have beyond rocks?  ( I'd be skeptical of a 'civilization' that existence is based on one site where the 'artifacts' are hard if not impossible  to ID from plain rocks. )

What do the ages of the mountains and rivers have to do with the timeline of occupation?

Any stone can be selected and 'aligned' with the thousands of dots that move through the sky.

...are the portable carved artifacts...rocks? Could we see an image of a few of these?

...how are you differentiating between an 'artistic' method and weathering - could you show us a rock of the same age & origin from this site that has this 'method' applied and one that is not?  ( without answering like this ;  " This is the plausible argument I make in my book that connects my ancestors, the Lost Tribe of Clover Hollow, the Cherokee, the rock petroglyphs, and the supernatural activity together to form a hypothesis on why I believe I was brought to this property, who brought me there, and what I was supposed to find when I got there. But now you really get into the unchartered territory of destiny, purpose, and the spirit/nature relationship. Pretty heady subject matter for most. I don't claim to have all the answers, if I did I would be looking for the forum "Explained Mysteries" instead of this one. " - Ie.  segwaying back to  referring to it being in your book and then a total red herring re ' destiny, purpose, and the spirit/nature relationship.'

 

Do you have any evidence that doesn't involve you seeing things in common rocks?

Stone tools? Habitation or burial site?

Are you going to post excerpts from your book that show research from credible sources? 

I'm not a person that's offended by the word supernatural... What supernatural do you have to present to us?

But of course I'm curious as to what documented proof of what kind of supernatural the OP has to present to us here. Especially since he's presenting it as such an important of his whole story. Besides, when don't we press for "present the proof" when someone claims to have some?

Link to the Paleoindian village site please

Name of the State archaeologist of Virginia who stated this?

Please show us this agreement and the law under which it is enacted and enforced.

Why would that rock be of interest to an archaeologist?

 

Ermmmm     that pic really means nothing so why did you post it  ( seeings you said it would be pointless to do so in the first place   )  ?   

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28 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Ermmmm     that pic really means nothing .  It might to you but I certainly have no idea what the posting of it was supposed to achieve ? :huh:

It looks like someone taking a thermal photograph of a fire.

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or a squashed mosquito, up close, with a thermal camera .... or UFOs in a night sky   .......  or  .....

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14 hours ago, Harte said:

To paraphrase kmt_sesh, If you can't even get basic vocabulary correct, why on Earth should we trust you with unverified speculation?

I never thought I'd see evidence of the Great Historians' Cover-Up, yet here it is in practice, right here at UM. My dissenting voice has been covered up and my words put in another's mouth. CAN'T YOU SHEEPLE SEE WHAT'S GOING ON?!!?!?

I guess the next step is just to eliminate me. I suppose the best I can hope for is that someone will open a thread in the Conspiracy Theory forum about me and my mysterious death.

--Jaylemurph

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52 minutes ago, back to earth said:

or a squashed mosquito, up close, with a thermal camera .... or UFOs in a night sky   .......  or  .....

Your opinions are no more valid than mine. We both know that no matter what is said on this forum you are going to have a problem with it. That's what you do being a grumpy old Ump that you are. But I still like you. When you publish controversial information or opinion you can expect the skepticism that you get. My book has won six international book awards so some think it has some validity. I have published my opinion on a very reputable website and it was their editors who put in the line Oldest Civilization in the World Discovered in the Appalachian Mountains? line, after looking at my evidence. 

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5 hours ago, BlueHeron said:

The only restricted cave I had heard of was in the Clover Hollow Natural Preserve Area and called the Stay High Cave, but it must have been called the Clover Hollow Cave at times. Thanks for the info.

No, different cave. Check with VPI.

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I have to say when I looked at the photos I thought those were fanciful names for ordinary rocks. The area is full of such rocks. The limestone tends to be uniform with little mud content. None of the photos of rocks jump out at me as anything other than the the rocks I see all over the area.

I could certainly accept that people have lived in that area for a long time. That hardly makes for a civilization. Where are the cities? Where are the products? You also describe the people as a tribe. How would you identify the tribe? What distinguishes the tribe from other tribes?

PS Here is a link to a cave trip to Clover Hollow Cave.

http://www.vkelman.com/caves/cloverhollow2001/index.htm

http://wvcaving.blogspot.com/2006/09/trip-clover-hollow-at-fall-var.html

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17 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

...I wasn't aware that random reviewers on Goodreads praising self-published material constituted "international book awards."

Because your award -- an honorable mention, not actually a book placing in competition -- is for autobiography, not anything related to any scientific field or scientific work. 

http://parisbookfestival.com/winners2016.html

The "Beach Book Festival" admits that it's a function of a media sales corporation, most of whose works appear to be setting up conferences for DIYs. The award there is again for autiobiography, which has nothing to do with scientific or historical writing.

http://entwrite.brinkster.net/portal/content.asp?ContentId=383

The International Book Festival award appears to a complete lie: no book with the words in the title "Sibold" or "Effect" won anything in 2016, according to their own website:

http://www.internationalbookawards.com/2016awardannouncement.html

Again, your book falls into the category of biography/autobiography and is again not a winner or placer, but an honorable mention:

http://www.hollywoodbookfestival.com/winners2016.htm 

Ditto the San Francisco Book Festival -- no actual award, just honorable mention and again for autobiography.

Perhaps most damningly, it appears that several of these -- Beach Book, San Francisco, Hollywood, Paris, and New York -- book festivals are all owned and operated by the same company (and, one suspects, same man): JM Media Northern Media, LLC. And surely it's a coincidence that this company, JM Media just happens to match your initials, J. M.

 

Looks like you're seriously padding your resume.

--Jaylemurph

 

Well done. Rather reminiscent of Beall's list of predatory publishers.

.

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4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Greetings,

The southeastern United States is full of paleoindian sites from cave shelters to villages, towns, and monuments.  Go visit  Ocmulgee or one of the other sites maintained by the NPS, The Blue Ridge mountains for example are full of riverside settlements of the early woodland period.  Somewhere around 1000bce, people started building semi-permanent agricultural settlements from the Mississippi east to the Atlantic, at least across the southern US. Petroglyphs abound.  I don't know much about the northeast.  Muskogee and Creek people would probably call the Cherokees late coming interlopers. Ancient is a few thousand years in this area; still respectable. Most of our ancestors across the world were just learning to settle and farm.

~SNIP~

It should be pointed out that the above bold portion makes a discussion of the OP irrelevant to any claim of predating the earliest known and verified actual civilization, the Sumerians, circa 3200/3500 BC as well as implying the said post concerns the Cherokee from that early point in time. It's also moot in regards to any meaningful definition of "civilization" which IS NOT a generic term as used by archaeologists/paleoanthropologists in discussing Native Americans as the OP would seem to imply.

cormac

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35 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

...I wasn't aware that random reviewers on Goodreads praising self-published material constituted "international book awards."

Because your award -- an honorable mention, not actually a book placing in competition -- is for autobiography, not anything related to any scientific field or scientific work. 

http://parisbookfestival.com/winners2016.html

The "Beach Book Festival" admits that it's a function of a media sales corporation, most of whose works appear to be setting up conferences for DIYs. The award there is again for autiobiography, which has nothing to do with scientific or historical writing.

http://entwrite.brinkster.net/portal/content.asp?ContentId=383

The International Book Festival award appears to a complete lie: no book with the words in the title "Sibold" or "Effect" won anything in 2016, according to their own website:

http://www.internationalbookawards.com/2016awardannouncement.html

Again, your book falls into the category of biography/autobiography and is again not a winner or placer, but an honorable mention:

http://www.hollywoodbookfestival.com/winners2016.htm 

Ditto the San Francisco Book Festival -- no actual award, just honorable mention and again for autobiography.

Perhaps most damningly, it appears that several of these -- Beach Book, San Francisco, Hollywood, Paris, and New York -- book festivals are all owned and operated by the same company (and, one suspects, same man): JM Media Northern Media, LLC. And surely it's a coincidence that this company, JM Media just happens to match your initials, J. M.

 

Looks like you're seriously padding your resume.

--Jaylemurph

 

Excellent - in a round about way I think this explains why he avoided answering my four tough questions.

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20 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Excellent - in a round about way I think this explains why he avoided answering my four tough questions.

Let me correct the record.

1. All the book awards are considered International Book Awards in the book publishing industry. If the contest is held internationally, it is an international book award.

2. They are very reputable and distinguished book awards.

3. They have nothing to do with Goodreads.

4. The book is not diminished because it fell into the Autobiography category.

5. Honorable mentions are considered award winners, in all cases.

6. The Beach Book Festival was a first place winner.

7. The Readers Favorite International Book Award does use International in it's name.

8. If you had any idea how the book publishing world works you should know all of this.

9. Am i to assume that you or Swede have ever published anything or won an award for anything?

10. If you have I'm very proud of you.

11. I'm very proud of my book and there is nothing like it in the industry.

12. I have answered your questions in the best way I know how, but now grow tired of your relentless skepticism with no apparent expertise to back it up.

13. My book is an exciting novel, not a boring scientific journal out to impress the likes of you guys.

14. To diminished another one's accomplishments is a sure sign of ones self inadequacies.

15. What are your qualifications to be such critics in this area?

16. You appear to be greatly ignorant in the publishing field.

17. You guys will only hear what you want to hear, no matter what. 

If you would do a simple google search on 'The Sibold Effect' you will find a NPR radio interview on the property, a "talk to an expert' segment with Ancient Origins, a radio interview with Paranormal Underground, multiple reviews, and all the book awards. Look at some of these and you may have a better idea what this book is really about. 

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I am sure some great answers to those questions are coming .  

A lot of posters come claiming stuff about fields they seem to know little about and then claim their critics here have no expertise in the fields they bought attention to  .... or publishing knowledge  . 

 

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3 hours ago, BlueHeron said:

Your opinions are no more valid than mine. We both know that no matter what is said on this forum you are going to have a problem with it.

Not really, I just wanted to know what that pic was supposed to be of. I DO have a problem with a random seeming unexplained picture with no comment ...   how am I supposed to know what it means ???  Fir all I know it could be a mosquito ! 

If you had given it some context, I would see it differently  .   Its a bit silly and exaggerated to state  " no matter what is said on this forum you are going to have a problem with it. "  

3 hours ago, BlueHeron said:

 

That's what you do being a grumpy old Ump that you are. But I still like you. When you publish controversial information or opinion you can expect the skepticism that you get. My book has won six international book awards so some think it has some validity.

Well, good for you, congratulations  !    But my points were not about you book not having any validity  ... obviously some think it does have validity - in certain ways and fields .    It is more about the points you made here , the questions put to you and your answers , responses and / or evasions . 

3 hours ago, BlueHeron said:

 

I have published my opinion on a very reputable website and it was their editors who put in the line Oldest Civilization in the World Discovered in the Appalachian Mountains? line, after looking at my evidence. 

Indeed ... and they put the   ?      at the end .  . . .  and you put it in this thread title . 

To me that means it is an open question to be examined .  NOW ... did you put this here for that to happen , or for book and video publicity to boost income ? 

Or for admiration   ( if the last, I already congratulated you   :)  ) 

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35 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Not really, I just wanted to know what that pic was supposed to be of. I DO have a problem with a random seeming unexplained picture with no comment ...   how am I supposed to know what it means ???  Fir all I know it could be a mosquito ! 

If you had given it some context, I would see it differently  .   Its a bit silly and exaggerated to state  " no matter what is said on this forum you are going to have a problem with it. "  

Well, good for you, congratulations  !    But my points were not about you book not having any validity  ... obviously some think it does have validity - in certain ways and fields .    It is more about the points you made here , the questions put to you and your answers , responses and / or evasions . 

Indeed ... and they put the   ?      at the end .  . . .  and you put it in this thread title . 

To me that means it is an open question to be examined .  NOW ... did you put this here for that to happen , or for book and video publicity to boost income ? 

Or for admiration   ( if the last, I already congratulated you   :)  ) 

My sole purpose for posting the information I had was because I thought everyone on this site would find it interesting. No hidden agenda or motives although I would admit my awkward opening threads didn't seem that way. I just posted that photograph to make the point that it would be futile to post those. However I find it puzzling no one commented on the videos, I assumed everybody would jump down my throat. Maybe it still will happen. I had to go back and see if I really posted them. It's funny how unexplained phenomena can quell the loudest critics. I think it shows there are no experts in this field. Come on guys, you must think the objects in those videos are dust, bugs, fish, birds, or something? I really want someone to explain to me what is swimming through the water. It shows up in only 3 frames, which tells me it took 1/10th of a second to travel across the screen. It was traveling across the current of the stream also. My personal opinion is that it has something to do with "elementals" which I discuss in the book. I know it's a stretch. Here's the screen grabs. 

undines.jpg

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Maybe because the thread was supposed to be about  what you first posted about and not some supernatural story . 

Is it now a cryptid thread  ?  I 'm  confused  :huh:

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6 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Link to the Paleoindian village site please

Name of the State archaeologist of Virginia who stated this?

Please show us this agreement and the law under which it is enacted and enforced.

Why would that rock be of interest to an archaeologist?

 

 

Here's the answers to your questions but you are not going to like them.

1. I've got the National Historic Registry number on this site along with the location but no way am I letting that information out. That would identify the location along with my property and I don't want that to be public knowledge.

2. No way would the State Archaeologist want his name made public about private conversations.

3. The law is called the law of decency and in no way am I disrespecting an ancient burial site if I find one.

4. I have no idea what was in the archaeologist head.

Sorry, I have nothing to prove. Believe me or don't, it's completely up to you.

 

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19 minutes ago, BlueHeron said:

My sole purpose for posting the information I had was because I thought everyone on this site would find it interesting. No hidden agenda or motives although I would admit my awkward opening threads didn't seem that way. I just posted that photograph to make the point that it would be futile to post those. However I find it puzzling no one commented on the videos, I assumed everybody would jump down my throat. Maybe it still will happen. I had to go back and see if I really posted them. It's funny how unexplained phenomena can quell the loudest critics. I think it shows there are no experts in this field. Come on guys, you must think the objects in those videos are dust, bugs, fish, birds, or something? I really want someone to explain to me what is swimming through the water. It shows up in only 3 frames, which tells me it took 1/10th of a second to travel across the screen. It was traveling across the current of the stream also. My personal opinion is that it has something to do with "elementals" which I discuss in the book. I know it's a stretch. Here's the screen grabs. 

undines.jpg

Ummmmmm   its another shot of your  ' kingfisher video '   isnt it  .... somewhat shot  different .    Is it a reflection ir an underwater image of the kingfisher ?  

We could ask ChRlz to analyze the footage if you like ... he is very good at it   !

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I think some division of opinion exists about  the tenure of the Cherokee people in the southern Appalachian region.  One school of thought is that they came as late as the 13th century, the other is that they have been there for much longer, 2000 to 3000 years .  They are somewhat of an anomaly, speaking an Iroquoian language surrounded by Muskogee Creeks.  They seem to have occupied a number of Muskogee sites,  not surprising since these sites are optimally situated in the environs.  Location, location, location as the real estate people say.  I am not in any sense an expert on this topic, but there is a ton of information available and I have read a little of it.  

No offense to you or the supernatural.  I have a bias against non-native exploitation of native spiritualism, and initially I thought you were just another guy trying to sell "Genuine Indian Magic".  After reading your posts, I don't think you are.

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4 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

I never thought I'd see evidence of the Great Historians' Cover-Up, yet here it is in practice, right here at UM. My dissenting voice has been covered up and my words put in another's mouth. CAN'T YOU SHEEPLE SEE WHAT'S GOING ON?!!?!?

I guess the next step is just to eliminate me. I suppose the best I can hope for is that someone will open a thread in the Conspiracy Theory forum about me and my mysterious death.

--Jaylemurph

LOL I didn't think I had said that. Honestly, I wasn't behind this dastardly scheme. I don't even like conspiracy theories. Please, do not sick the Masters on me!

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