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Trump Tower Wiretapped?


Lilly

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1 minute ago, Paranormal Panther said:

I agree with you. I have *huge* reservations about Trump's claims of wiretapping, which sound about as bogus as "because Russians".

I think today information age is a double edged sword. We get information so fast from leaks or fake news sites we do not know what is real anymore. And it is getting harder to trust the people in charge of investigating.

But it is also getting harder to hide corruption and things can be fact checked on the fly. 

 We all must be vigilant and not let politicians from either party take advantage of us. We are the People of the United States. We all want the same basic peaceful life. Do not let the media and political parties tear us apart.

  Heck if anyone wants to come to california I could show some beautiful things and show you how generous and mellow us coastal folk can be, and I am sure anyone from middle America could show me some things that would blow my mind! We let the loudest and worst get all the attention.

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1 minute ago, BlackBearWolf said:

I think today information age is a double edged sword. We get information so fast from leaks or fake news sites we do not know what is real anymore. And it is getting harder to trust the people in charge of investigating.

But it is also getting harder to hide corruption and things can be fact checked on the fly. 

 We all must be vigilant and not let politicians from either party take advantage of us. We are the People of the United States. We all want the same basic peaceful life. Do not let the media and political parties tear us apart.

  Heck if anyone wants to come to california I could show some beautiful things and show you how generous and mellow us coastal folk can be, and I am sure anyone from middle America could show me some things that would blow my mind! We let the loudest and worst get all the attention.

It's been like that for years, but new forms and new sources of information make it even worse. Most news outlets have some degree of bias. It's almost impossible to find a genuinely neutral source. Most of them have some kind of agenda. It could be a leftist one or a rightist one. It doesn't really matter. The truth often gets lost in the fray. Put the truth on a milk carton.

You're right about the extreme. It gets more airtime and press than the mainstream. The mainstream isn't as sexy (in the journalistic sense) as the extreme. Rioting is sexier than debating. It brings in the clicks and the views, and it garners higher ratings. It also presents a false view of reality in that it portrays the extreme as the mainstream in subtle ways. Some people begin to think that men bite dogs more than vice versa. It's hard to believe that this trend will reverse itself. 

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36 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

I agree with you. I have *huge* reservations about Trump's claims of wiretapping, which sound about as bogus as "because Russians".

If there was some sort of surveillance, I doubt President Obama ordered it, directly. I do think there was a mad scramble, before and after the election by his supporters to find a smoking gun to derail Trump's candidacy and subsequent  election and inauguration. Obviously, they failed.

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8 hours ago, BlackBearWolf said:

The claim is they influenced the election by releasing private e-mails of Hillary's campaign manager

The fact they did not hack trumps emails (They probably did) and release them as well shows a preferred candidate they wanted to win.....

I have yet to hear or see genuine proof of that from the purported "17 agencies". Let's say that the campaign head, whose password ostensibly was "password", was really hacked. Were the email contents true? That's the elephant in the room, the one that Hillary's magicians try to make disappear.

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6 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

If there was some sort of surveillance, I doubt President Obama ordered it, directly. I do think there was a mad scramble, before and after the election by his supporters to find a smoking gun to derail Trump's candidacy and subsequent  election and inauguration. Obviously, they failed.

I would be very surprised if that *didn't* happen. Political machines make "House Of Cards" look like a Disney cartoon.

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7 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

I would be very surprised if that *didn't* happen. Political machines make "House Of Cards" look like a Disney cartoon.

Trump Towers is probably riddled with corporate espionage listening devices, anyway. The repurposing of one or more of those by clandestine operatives with no direct link to the Government would do quite nicely. Of course, it's only speculation but a reasonable possibility, never-the-less.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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10 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Trump Towers is probably riddled with corporate espionage listening devices, anyway. The repurposing of one or more of those by clandestine operatives with no direct link to the Government would do quite nicely. Of course, it's only speculation but a reasonable possibility, never-the-less.

Perhaps a British operative spied on his campaign. He or they wouldn't have to worry about American laws. He could just share his findings with Democratic operatives. Where there's a shill, there's a way.

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1 minute ago, Paranormal Panther said:

Perhaps a British operative spied on his campaign. He or they wouldn't have to worry about American laws. He could just share his findings with Democratic operatives. Where there's a shill, there's a way.

Considering what the NSA was doing without the apparent knowledge of the President, I don't know how anyone could bat their eyes, vapidly and declare with certainty it could never have happened under Obama's watch.

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9 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Considering what the NSA was doing without the apparent knowledge of the President, I don't know how anyone could bat their eyes, vapidly and declare with certainty it could never have happened under Obama's watch.

Well, James Clapper said that there was nothing to it. Oh, wait! ;)

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12 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

Well, James Clapper said that there was nothing to it. Oh, wait! ;)

Well, well, look at this. The manure may be deeper than anyone thought.                                      http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/this-former-british-lawmaker-is-at-the-heart-of-the-trump-wiretap-allegations/ar-AAnU2xB?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

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44 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

Were the email contents true? That's the elephant in the room, the one that Hillary's magicians try to make disappear.

Yes they were. They never denied the contents. Hillary just started screeching about Russia every time she was confronted about it but nobody ever said any of that slimy stuff was false.

Then the msm: oh yea Russia, mmm hmmm Russia, yes of course Putin who else, KGB blah blah blah. And the sheep followed.

 

41 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

I would be very surprised if that *didn't* happen. Political machines make "House Of Cards" look like a Disney cartoon.

lol I don't know. The Underwoods are the most ruthless political machine ever imagined.

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54 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

I have yet to hear or see genuine proof of that from the purported "17 agencies". Let's say that the campaign head, whose password ostensibly was "password", was really hacked. Were the email contents true? That's the elephant in the room, the one that Hillary's magicians try to make disappear.

I think it would be nice for the public to see all of Trump's campaign emails as well. If we want to compare all the elephants and skeletons equally. We could then see the true underbelly of the political system.

Imagine if all the politicians had cameras and wiretaps during campaigns and we got to see all the backroom deals and shady agreements. I don't think we would be too impressed with our heroes if we saw all their dirty laundry. Or maybe we would?.... They should all welcome that sort of scrutiny. A 24hr spy cam following our candidates around and we get to see and hear everything! on the last week of the campaign the footage is released to all! haha. but im not even joking. Then some sort of academic competition if they pass the ethics part of the campaign. Then  a war simulation competition where they have to make split second decision that represent real world scenarios. We get to see all test results. Then vote accordingly. 

If it's the most important job in the world then there should be the most extreme vetting ever. Drug test, psychological analysis, iq test, History and science degrees, full tax disclosure, DNA analysis for potential degenerative cognitive disease, ect...  They should be cream of the crop Intellectual, scientist, that have advance knowledge of military tactics. 

But instead we hear the same stump speeches over and over and pick based upon Bravado, Looks, and showmanship....... 

Edited by BlackBearWolf
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4 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

I am asking this as a non-American, but is anyone really leaking anything? Or is the media and others just pretending there are leaks to make up stories and attempt to discredit people?

Lily answered your question. She's evidently much more trusting of our news outlets than I am.

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10 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Well, well, look at this. The manure may be deeper than anyone thought.                                      http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/this-former-british-lawmaker-is-at-the-heart-of-the-trump-wiretap-allegations/ar-AAnU2xB?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

I'm impressed! You seemingly caught my reference in the earlier post.

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13 minutes ago, F3SS said:

Yes they were. They never denied the contents. Hillary just started screeching about Russia every time she was confronted about it but nobody ever said any of that slimy stuff was false.

Then the msm: oh yea Russia, mmm hmmm Russia, yes of course Putin who else, KGB blah blah blah. And the sheep followed.

 

lol I don't know. The Underwoods are the most ruthless political machine ever imagined.

*That's after Boss Tweed and the Clintons. Think about this, Fess. Can you imagine the media reaction if Trump did what Hillary did? Heck, let's even pretend that Putin went to a joint session of Congress and shouted "I hacked the Republican campaign to keep Trump out of the White House!". What would the news outlets say after Clinton won in that scenario? Would they consider her and her victory to be illegitimate, or would they concentrate on the long list of Trump sins? My guess is that Assange would become their new best friend, hailed as a whistle-blowing hero while the Russian angle would be summarily dismissed as really unimportant in the scheme of things. It's just a hunch.

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23 minutes ago, BlackBearWolf said:

I think it would be nice for the public to see all of Trump's campaign emails as well. If we want to compare all the elephants and skeletons equally. We could then see the true underbelly of the political system.

Imagine if all the politicians had cameras and wiretaps during campaigns and we got to see all the backroom deals and shady agreements. I don't think we would be too impressed with our heroes if we saw all their dirty laundry. Or maybe we would?.... They should all welcome that sort of scrutiny. A 24hr spy cam following our candidates around and we get to see and hear everything! on the last week of the campaign the footage is released to all! haha. but im not even joking. Then some sort of academic competition if they pass the ethics part of the campaign. Then  a war simulation competition where they have to make split second decision that represent real world scenarios. We get to see all test results. Then vote accordingly. 

If it's the most important job in the world then there should be the most extreme vetting ever. Drug test, psychological analysis, iq test, History and science degrees, full tax disclosure, DNA analysis for potential degenerative cognitive disease, ect...  They should be cream of the crop Intellectual, scientist, that have advance knowledge of military tactics. 

But instead we hear the same stump speeches over and over and pick based upon Bravado, Looks, and showmanship....... 

At this point, I'm just satisfied with candidates who exhibit both character and competence. Hillary lacks both. The emails are just icing on the never-Clinton cake. We dodged a bullet!

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7 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

At this point, I'm just satisfied with candidates who exhibit both character and competence. Hillary lacks both. The emails are just icing on the never-Clinton cake. We dodged a bullet!

But the truth is you do not know what kind of cake you are getting with Donald either.

If you got to see what his emails are like I am sure you would have a much better understanding of the type of cake he is. 

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36 minutes ago, BlackBearWolf said:

Imagine if all the politicians had cameras and wiretaps during campaigns and we got to see all the backroom deals and shady agreements. I don't think we would be too impressed with our heroes if we saw all their dirty laundry. Or maybe we would?....

I once advocated for Cameras in classrooms the had a closed feed to the Parents of the Kids, so that they could see their own Kids disruptive behavior and what the Teachers had to put up with. It would also have shut down the talk about "Indoctrination" in the freaking Elementary classes.

Guess what?

The Teachers and their Union Reps went ballistic, and used every cockeyed excuse imaginable to prevent it.

Dirty laundry? How about good ol' fashioned paranoia? 

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1 minute ago, AnchorSteam said:

I once advocated for Cameras in classrooms the had a closed feed to the Parents of the Kids, so that they could see their own Kids disruptive behavior and what the Teachers had to put up with. It would also have shut down the talk about "Indoctrination" in the freaking Elementary classes.

Guess what?

The Teachers and their Union Reps went ballistic, and used every cockeyed excuse imaginable to prevent it.

Dirty laundry? How about good ol' fashioned paranoia? 

I think that is a great idea. Even audio would suffice. I worked at a elementary school most of my life as a teacher and know that our schools principal could listen anytime to what was going on in the class through the intercom system. It holds everyone accountable and helps in litigation. I personally welcome it. If you want a job a public job with lots of responsibility you are accountable to the public because the public pays the bills. That's why cops wear cameras it keeps everyone accountable.  

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27 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

*That's after Boss Tweed and the Clintons. Think about this, Fess. Can you imagine the media reaction if Trump did what Hillary did? Heck, let's even pretend that Putin went to a joint session of Congress and shouted "I hacked the Republican campaign to keep Trump out of the White House!". What would the news outlets say after Clinton won in that scenario? Would they consider her and her victory to be illegitimate, or would they concentrate on the long list of Trump sins? My guess is that Assange would become their new best friend, hailed as a whistle-blowing hero while the Russian angle would be summarily dismissed as really unimportant in the scheme of things. It's just a hunch.

 

I think it would get a few obligatory finger wags then be dismissed as Trump never having a chance anyways.

 

12 minutes ago, BlackBearWolf said:

But the truth is you do not know what kind of cake you are getting with Donald either.

If you got to see what his emails are like I am sure you would have a much better understanding of the type of cake he is. 

It must've been said a million times here that Donald was the great unknown yet we knew exactly who and what she was. I don't think many would disagree that voting Trump was the great crapshoot of our time. 

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1 minute ago, F3SS said:

It must've been said a million times here that Donald was the great unknown yet we knew exactly who and what she was. I don't think many would disagree that voting Trump was the great crapshoot of our time. 

Yeah but why are we shooting crap? We should have much higher standards. Enough with the two party system  already ........ A new centrist party is needed.  And its not allowed to be the new Republicans or new Democrats.  

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You think you knew what she was because you bought the lies Trump (and others of similar political bent before Trump) spread about the Clintons, but they were lies.  It amazes me how people cloud their judgment for political reasons, but think about it -- the Clintons would long ago have been in jail if there was any truth.

In the meantime why was Trump a "crap shoot?"  Because we couldn't see his taxes.  He was and still is hiding things.  To someone like me, with his gestures and stupidity and ignorance, he was an obvious disaster in the making.

Now basically, were I an American, I would be a Republican of the Reagan sort -- understanding international affairs and the economy much better than the Democrats, and would vote Republican most of the time. But there are exceptions and Trump would have been one of them.  He appealed to racism and jingoism and sexism, he was stupid and obviously dishonest, and he was immoral (I think running a casino, and thereby contributing to human suffering via human weakness, is a good example, of many, of his immorality).

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Just now, BlackBearWolf said:

Yeah but why are we shooting crap? We should have much higher standards. Enough with the two party system  already ........ A new centrist party is needed.  And its not allowed to be the new Republicans or new Democrats.  

I think you need to get rid of parties.  Look at the European countries who have many parties, and they have the same idiots in power. 

How does one get rid of parties?  By eliminating party primaries and having everyone stand on the same primary ballot, with those getting the most votes standing on the final election.  Then you make it where parties are not allowed to raise money -- only individual candidates.  A number of similar measures would be needed.

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10 minutes ago, BlackBearWolf said:

I think that is a great idea. Even audio would suffice. I worked at a elementary school most of my life as a teacher and know that our schools principal could listen anytime to what was going on in the class through the intercom system. It holds everyone accountable and helps in litigation. I personally welcome it. If you want a job a public job with lots of responsibility you are accountable to the public because the public pays the bills. That's why cops wear cameras it keeps everyone accountable.  

Too many teachers are incompetent (those who can't do, teach) and they know it and they have a union.  They got their jobs by getting teaching credentials at schools that really teach nothing but faddish education theories and rarely much about the subjects they teach.  Then they depend on tenure to keep the job.

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Just now, BlackBearWolf said:

Yeah but why are we shooting crap? We should have much higher standards. Enough with the two party system  already ........ A new centrist party is needed.  And its not allowed to be the new Republicans or new Democrats.  

Third parties are great but just aren't a realistic choice. I'd like to see them and I love the idea of a meritocracy (even though I think cliques, think committees, would form then join up with other cliques until everything snowballs into two discernible groups again) but that just is not our current reality. Voting Hillary would have been voting to be the writer guy tied to the bed in Misery and she is Kathy Bates. The people had a choice between that and hopefully not that and chose not that.

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