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Lilly

Trump Tower Wiretapped?

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F3SS
44 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

Were the email contents true? That's the elephant in the room, the one that Hillary's magicians try to make disappear.

Yes they were. They never denied the contents. Hillary just started screeching about Russia every time she was confronted about it but nobody ever said any of that slimy stuff was false.

Then the msm: oh yea Russia, mmm hmmm Russia, yes of course Putin who else, KGB blah blah blah. And the sheep followed.

 

41 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

I would be very surprised if that *didn't* happen. Political machines make "House Of Cards" look like a Disney cartoon.

lol I don't know. The Underwoods are the most ruthless political machine ever imagined.

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BlackBearWolf
54 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

I have yet to hear or see genuine proof of that from the purported "17 agencies". Let's say that the campaign head, whose password ostensibly was "password", was really hacked. Were the email contents true? That's the elephant in the room, the one that Hillary's magicians try to make disappear.

I think it would be nice for the public to see all of Trump's campaign emails as well. If we want to compare all the elephants and skeletons equally. We could then see the true underbelly of the political system.

Imagine if all the politicians had cameras and wiretaps during campaigns and we got to see all the backroom deals and shady agreements. I don't think we would be too impressed with our heroes if we saw all their dirty laundry. Or maybe we would?.... They should all welcome that sort of scrutiny. A 24hr spy cam following our candidates around and we get to see and hear everything! on the last week of the campaign the footage is released to all! haha. but im not even joking. Then some sort of academic competition if they pass the ethics part of the campaign. Then  a war simulation competition where they have to make split second decision that represent real world scenarios. We get to see all test results. Then vote accordingly. 

If it's the most important job in the world then there should be the most extreme vetting ever. Drug test, psychological analysis, iq test, History and science degrees, full tax disclosure, DNA analysis for potential degenerative cognitive disease, ect...  They should be cream of the crop Intellectual, scientist, that have advance knowledge of military tactics. 

But instead we hear the same stump speeches over and over and pick based upon Bravado, Looks, and showmanship....... 

Edited by BlackBearWolf

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Paranormal Panther
4 hours ago, Derek Willis said:

I am asking this as a non-American, but is anyone really leaking anything? Or is the media and others just pretending there are leaks to make up stories and attempt to discredit people?

Lily answered your question. She's evidently much more trusting of our news outlets than I am.

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Paranormal Panther
10 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Well, well, look at this. The manure may be deeper than anyone thought.                                      http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/this-former-british-lawmaker-is-at-the-heart-of-the-trump-wiretap-allegations/ar-AAnU2xB?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp

I'm impressed! You seemingly caught my reference in the earlier post.

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Paranormal Panther
13 minutes ago, F3SS said:

Yes they were. They never denied the contents. Hillary just started screeching about Russia every time she was confronted about it but nobody ever said any of that slimy stuff was false.

Then the msm: oh yea Russia, mmm hmmm Russia, yes of course Putin who else, KGB blah blah blah. And the sheep followed.

 

lol I don't know. The Underwoods are the most ruthless political machine ever imagined.

*That's after Boss Tweed and the Clintons. Think about this, Fess. Can you imagine the media reaction if Trump did what Hillary did? Heck, let's even pretend that Putin went to a joint session of Congress and shouted "I hacked the Republican campaign to keep Trump out of the White House!". What would the news outlets say after Clinton won in that scenario? Would they consider her and her victory to be illegitimate, or would they concentrate on the long list of Trump sins? My guess is that Assange would become their new best friend, hailed as a whistle-blowing hero while the Russian angle would be summarily dismissed as really unimportant in the scheme of things. It's just a hunch.

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Paranormal Panther
23 minutes ago, BlackBearWolf said:

I think it would be nice for the public to see all of Trump's campaign emails as well. If we want to compare all the elephants and skeletons equally. We could then see the true underbelly of the political system.

Imagine if all the politicians had cameras and wiretaps during campaigns and we got to see all the backroom deals and shady agreements. I don't think we would be too impressed with our heroes if we saw all their dirty laundry. Or maybe we would?.... They should all welcome that sort of scrutiny. A 24hr spy cam following our candidates around and we get to see and hear everything! on the last week of the campaign the footage is released to all! haha. but im not even joking. Then some sort of academic competition if they pass the ethics part of the campaign. Then  a war simulation competition where they have to make split second decision that represent real world scenarios. We get to see all test results. Then vote accordingly. 

If it's the most important job in the world then there should be the most extreme vetting ever. Drug test, psychological analysis, iq test, History and science degrees, full tax disclosure, DNA analysis for potential degenerative cognitive disease, ect...  They should be cream of the crop Intellectual, scientist, that have advance knowledge of military tactics. 

But instead we hear the same stump speeches over and over and pick based upon Bravado, Looks, and showmanship....... 

At this point, I'm just satisfied with candidates who exhibit both character and competence. Hillary lacks both. The emails are just icing on the never-Clinton cake. We dodged a bullet!

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BlackBearWolf
7 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

At this point, I'm just satisfied with candidates who exhibit both character and competence. Hillary lacks both. The emails are just icing on the never-Clinton cake. We dodged a bullet!

But the truth is you do not know what kind of cake you are getting with Donald either.

If you got to see what his emails are like I am sure you would have a much better understanding of the type of cake he is. 

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AnchorSteam
36 minutes ago, BlackBearWolf said:

Imagine if all the politicians had cameras and wiretaps during campaigns and we got to see all the backroom deals and shady agreements. I don't think we would be too impressed with our heroes if we saw all their dirty laundry. Or maybe we would?....

I once advocated for Cameras in classrooms the had a closed feed to the Parents of the Kids, so that they could see their own Kids disruptive behavior and what the Teachers had to put up with. It would also have shut down the talk about "Indoctrination" in the freaking Elementary classes.

Guess what?

The Teachers and their Union Reps went ballistic, and used every cockeyed excuse imaginable to prevent it.

Dirty laundry? How about good ol' fashioned paranoia? 

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BlackBearWolf
1 minute ago, AnchorSteam said:

I once advocated for Cameras in classrooms the had a closed feed to the Parents of the Kids, so that they could see their own Kids disruptive behavior and what the Teachers had to put up with. It would also have shut down the talk about "Indoctrination" in the freaking Elementary classes.

Guess what?

The Teachers and their Union Reps went ballistic, and used every cockeyed excuse imaginable to prevent it.

Dirty laundry? How about good ol' fashioned paranoia? 

I think that is a great idea. Even audio would suffice. I worked at a elementary school most of my life as a teacher and know that our schools principal could listen anytime to what was going on in the class through the intercom system. It holds everyone accountable and helps in litigation. I personally welcome it. If you want a job a public job with lots of responsibility you are accountable to the public because the public pays the bills. That's why cops wear cameras it keeps everyone accountable.  

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F3SS
27 minutes ago, Paranormal Panther said:

*That's after Boss Tweed and the Clintons. Think about this, Fess. Can you imagine the media reaction if Trump did what Hillary did? Heck, let's even pretend that Putin went to a joint session of Congress and shouted "I hacked the Republican campaign to keep Trump out of the White House!". What would the news outlets say after Clinton won in that scenario? Would they consider her and her victory to be illegitimate, or would they concentrate on the long list of Trump sins? My guess is that Assange would become their new best friend, hailed as a whistle-blowing hero while the Russian angle would be summarily dismissed as really unimportant in the scheme of things. It's just a hunch.

 

I think it would get a few obligatory finger wags then be dismissed as Trump never having a chance anyways.

 

12 minutes ago, BlackBearWolf said:

But the truth is you do not know what kind of cake you are getting with Donald either.

If you got to see what his emails are like I am sure you would have a much better understanding of the type of cake he is. 

It must've been said a million times here that Donald was the great unknown yet we knew exactly who and what she was. I don't think many would disagree that voting Trump was the great crapshoot of our time. 

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BlackBearWolf
1 minute ago, F3SS said:

It must've been said a million times here that Donald was the great unknown yet we knew exactly who and what she was. I don't think many would disagree that voting Trump was the great crapshoot of our time. 

Yeah but why are we shooting crap? We should have much higher standards. Enough with the two party system  already ........ A new centrist party is needed.  And its not allowed to be the new Republicans or new Democrats.  

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Frank Merton

You think you knew what she was because you bought the lies Trump (and others of similar political bent before Trump) spread about the Clintons, but they were lies.  It amazes me how people cloud their judgment for political reasons, but think about it -- the Clintons would long ago have been in jail if there was any truth.

In the meantime why was Trump a "crap shoot?"  Because we couldn't see his taxes.  He was and still is hiding things.  To someone like me, with his gestures and stupidity and ignorance, he was an obvious disaster in the making.

Now basically, were I an American, I would be a Republican of the Reagan sort -- understanding international affairs and the economy much better than the Democrats, and would vote Republican most of the time. But there are exceptions and Trump would have been one of them.  He appealed to racism and jingoism and sexism, he was stupid and obviously dishonest, and he was immoral (I think running a casino, and thereby contributing to human suffering via human weakness, is a good example, of many, of his immorality).

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Frank Merton
Just now, BlackBearWolf said:

Yeah but why are we shooting crap? We should have much higher standards. Enough with the two party system  already ........ A new centrist party is needed.  And its not allowed to be the new Republicans or new Democrats.  

I think you need to get rid of parties.  Look at the European countries who have many parties, and they have the same idiots in power. 

How does one get rid of parties?  By eliminating party primaries and having everyone stand on the same primary ballot, with those getting the most votes standing on the final election.  Then you make it where parties are not allowed to raise money -- only individual candidates.  A number of similar measures would be needed.

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Frank Merton
10 minutes ago, BlackBearWolf said:

I think that is a great idea. Even audio would suffice. I worked at a elementary school most of my life as a teacher and know that our schools principal could listen anytime to what was going on in the class through the intercom system. It holds everyone accountable and helps in litigation. I personally welcome it. If you want a job a public job with lots of responsibility you are accountable to the public because the public pays the bills. That's why cops wear cameras it keeps everyone accountable.  

Too many teachers are incompetent (those who can't do, teach) and they know it and they have a union.  They got their jobs by getting teaching credentials at schools that really teach nothing but faddish education theories and rarely much about the subjects they teach.  Then they depend on tenure to keep the job.

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F3SS
Just now, BlackBearWolf said:

Yeah but why are we shooting crap? We should have much higher standards. Enough with the two party system  already ........ A new centrist party is needed.  And its not allowed to be the new Republicans or new Democrats.  

Third parties are great but just aren't a realistic choice. I'd like to see them and I love the idea of a meritocracy (even though I think cliques, think committees, would form then join up with other cliques until everything snowballs into two discernible groups again) but that just is not our current reality. Voting Hillary would have been voting to be the writer guy tied to the bed in Misery and she is Kathy Bates. The people had a choice between that and hopefully not that and chose not that.

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Claire.

GOP refuses to back Trump's wiretap claim.
Several Republican senators said the president again stepped on his messaging with an unfounded accusation.

President Donald Trump will have to look somewhere besides Republican-controlled Capitol Hill for backup to his explosive and unsubstantiated charge that former President Barack Obama wiretapped Trump Tower before the election.

Trump was reportedly incensed Sunday that Republicans didn’t defend his allegations on the Sunday shows — in fact, several pointedly refused to lend Trump a lifeline when pressed. And more than 48 hours after the initial allegation, Republicans in Congress remained mostly mum as the controversy flared and threatened to create a lingering distraction for them as they try to pass major legislation in the coming weeks.

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and House Speaker Paul Ryan offered no comment on the matter. And some of the chief critics of the Obama administration on Capitol Hill said they were aware of no evidence to support Trump’s claim.

Read more: POLITICO

Edited by Claire.
Fixed quotation box.

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Frank Merton

That Trump is rather stupid and needs help governing is obvious, the problem is he also seems to be too arrogant to admit it.  Now one of the smartest presidents was Obama, and he accepted help all the time.  Another smart president was Carter, who was like Trump in his arrogance and wanted to do it all on his own.  That Obama governed well (considering his problems with Congress) and Carter made a mess of things is pretty obvious.

I kinda feel sorry for Trump.  He loses his temper and starts swarming Twitters, with no one around to cool him off and give him advice, and he says things he has no evidence for, and then is challenged, and won't back off and admit he might have gone too far out of his ego.  

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Frank Merton
6 minutes ago, F3SS said:

Third parties are great but just aren't a realistic choice. I'd like to see them and I love the idea of a meritocracy (even though I think cliques, think committees, would form then join up with other cliques until everything snowballs into two discernible groups again) but that just is not our current reality. Voting Hillary would have been voting to be the writer guy tied to the bed in Misery and she is Kathy Bates. The people had a choice between that and hopefully not that and chose not that.

Multiple parties often lead to situations where an extremist party gets power and then becomes a dictatorship.  We have seen it over and over and over.

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F3SS
2 minutes ago, Frank Merton said:

Multiple parties often lead to situations where an extremist party gets power and then becomes a dictatorship.  We have seen it over and over and over.

I'd agree and have thought that three parties would be the practical maximum. That's also the other conundrum with the meritocracy I like so much and that's the potential for 50 different committees or organizations or something like that forming and creating chaos and confusion and not all necessarily by intent but it would happen and like I said in time those 50 would join similar groups and so on until we are back to where we are. Maybe two parties is inevitable outside of a system like where you come from.

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F3SS

I think term limits are the single most important and coercive measure to creating more honesty and altruism from our reps.

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BlackBearWolf
6 minutes ago, F3SS said:

I'd agree and have thought that three parties would be the practical maximum. That's also the other conundrum with the meritocracy I like so much and that's the potential for 50 different committees or organizations or something like that forming and creating chaos and confusion and not all necessarily by intent but it would happen and like I said in time those 50 would join similar groups and so on until we are back to where we are. Maybe two parties is inevitable outside of a system like where you come from.

Add to it a competition based on how bad you make someone look and how good you can make yourself look. Its leads to exaggerations , personal insults, a game of one liners and gotchas.

Very little substance or thought in policies

Its devolving into crap shoots....

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Frank Merton
10 minutes ago, F3SS said:

I'd agree and have thought that three parties would be the practical maximum. That's also the other conundrum with the meritocracy I like so much and that's the potential for 50 different committees or organizations or something like that forming and creating chaos and confusion and not all necessarily by intent but it would happen and like I said in time those 50 would join similar groups and so on until we are back to where we are. Maybe two parties is inevitable outside of a system like where you come from.

Legally Vietnam is a one-party state but the reality is that it is a no-party state since when there is only one party there is really no party.  The different thing I would like is that party membership be open to all, or, in effect, automatic for all citizens.  What is evolving is a meritocracy where pretty much anyone who has a college degree and seems ideologically acceptable is asked to become a member, but the present situation is more of an aristocracy where the children of party members become party members almost automatically.  One needs to remember that in fact the North conquered the South, so most party members are from the North.

Cambodia has two parties; although I live here I am not well informed.  The present government is really a benign autocracy, holding its position largely through representing the views of a large majority and engaging in vote buying (which both parties do).  The government here is far more open and easier to deal with than the Vietnamese bureaucrats, who enjoy unchallengeable power. The main party difference seems to be the ruling party is internationalist and the minority party (which suffers few restrictions on its activity) is more chauvinist.  Elections here are actively real, but there is little doubt who will win.

I have to think that there is something better than any of the present arrangements, and I kinda like the experiments going on in California (and I think Washington State), with non-party primaries, term limits, and controls on the money parties can spend.

 

 

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Frank Merton

I might mention, as an aside, that Vietnam is suffering a severe brain drain, and I think it is because opportunities for those who are not party members are limited.  Hence most people who get a college education but aren't related to party members end up leaving.  I think in the highest circles this is recognized, but the party itself is ingrained and prevents meaningful change.

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CrimsonKing
39 minutes ago, Frank Merton said:

I might mention, as an aside, that Vietnam is suffering a severe brain drain, and I think it is because opportunities for those who are not party members are limited.  Hence most people who get a college education but aren't related to party members end up leaving.  I think in the highest circles this is recognized, but the party itself is ingrained and prevents meaningful change.

That's really sad Frank,even sadder that some spots in the US seem to be headed down the road of "if you aren't my party we can't be friends" so to speak...

Here in the States it's becoming pathetic how people can't even meet a stranger recently without politics coming up and then a argument starts happening outta nowhere lol.

I'm losing my patience with this party idiocy and when politics come up i shut that s*** down right away!

We are all people,yeah we all aren't going to agree on everything but this left/right party robot garbage isn't what "civil society" is supposed to be...

 

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