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Lilly

Trump Tower Wiretapped?

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Lilly
On ‎3‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 3:44 PM, Claire. said:

At this point we do know. Trump has provided no evidence whatsoever to back his accusations. If he has it, where is it? My guess is his fallback will be the nonsensical so-called evidence provided by Breitbart — you know, the usual crap conspiracy theorists pull together to support a lie.

By the same application of thinking then we know the Russian allegations are false too...because there's no evidence of it beyond "the usual crap conspiracy theorist pull together to support a lie."  

I'm going to wait for some real evidence before coming to any conclusions.

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Lilly

This is pretty interesting, about how wiretapping actually can exist without warrants being issued: https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2017-03-07/will-trumps-wiretap-claim-prove-true

Quote

One potential path is through “incidental” collection in dragnet or targeted surveillance of foreigners, followed by warrantless “backdoor” searches.

Such “backdoor” searches could affect many Americans, not just Trump.

“'Wiretap' has both a specific legal definition and a generic definition,” says former National Security Agency senior executive Thomas Drake, who left the agency in 2007 amid an ultimately unsuccessful leak prosecution.

Drake, an internal critic of wasteful spending turned public advocate for privacy rights, went on a Twitter spree of his own on Monday, criticizing "evidence-free or fact-shallow analyses" of surveillance operations from "self-appointed [and] so-called experts."

 

“There exist 'other' secret executive authorities,” Drake says.

 

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alibongo
7 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

Trump is at heart a con artist, and you can't be one unless you at least half-believe your lies.  The whole episode of the Trump University fraud and how he had to pay a huge amount to settle the lawsuits to keep it from going to trial is an example.

When I first heard of Trump University, I thought perhaps it was a philanthropic institution to give poor kids a chance. Well done Trump, I thought. Then I read about it....

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Claire.
Just now, Lilly said:

By the same application of thinking then we know the Russian allegations are false too...because there's no evidence of it beyond "the usual crap conspiracy theorist pull together to support a lie." 

Actually, there is indeed evidence beyond the usual crap, at least enough to merit not one investigation, but several.

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Lilly
30 minutes ago, Claire. said:

Actually, there is indeed evidence beyond the usual crap, at least enough to merit not one investigation, but several.

Evidence that President Obama's Justice Department considered significant (but we have yet to see ). Also, the first investigation found nothing tying the Trump campaign to Russian operatives/hackers. Keep in mind, telling a joke during a political campaign (about how Russia might be able to find some missing emails) really can't be considered as being evidence.

Also, keep in mind that if Trump's campaign had inappropriate contact with Russians then he will likely be impeached and we'll get Pence. If Pence was 'in on it' then we'll get Paul Ryan. The Republicans will still be the party in charge.

Edited by Lilly
addition
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Why not

Gut feeling is s@&t is about to hit the fan.     Nothing to do with Russia.

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Kurzweil

Not sure if posted

 

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White Unicorn
On 3/5/2017 at 2:43 PM, Lilly said:

Uh...well, he is the POTUS after all.

And the media said  the Libertarians would be too stupid in office! Trump said Hillary would be horrible because of all the investigation scandals and  Trump is just like he said Hillary would be, all scandals coming out and no focus on getting things done for average Joe's.  

 

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Lilly
1 hour ago, Why not said:

Gut feeling is s@&t is about to hit the fan.     Nothing to do with Russia.

Ya know, I have this feeling as well. I don't know if it will be about Russia or illegal surveillance but something is certainly brewing.

"I can tell that something wicked is coming by the tingling in my thumbs. Doors, open up for whoever is knocking!" ~Macbeth~

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Hammerclaw
On ‎3‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 4:21 PM, Agent0range said:

Look at the government definition.  An inquiry cannot yield charges, but can lead to an investigation.  An investigation can be conducted without an inquiry.  A government inquiry is the process of putting together a roadmap, and figuring out the 5 W's.  It does not involve statements under oath.

No, that's a definition you pulled out of your backside. I got mine from the dictionary.

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RavenHawk
1 hour ago, Lilly said:

Ya know, I have this feeling as well. I don't know if it will be about Russia or illegal surveillance but something is certainly brewing.

Something ominous for sure.  And it wouldn’t be good for the MSM/Progs/Establishment.  But the thing is that even if Trump walks away with a great victory in this arena, if he lets this Obamacare lite through, it won’t matter.  The people will see it as betrayal and all will be for naught. Ryan needs to divest the Establishment away from Obamacare lite and change the paradigm to transform from "treatment and cure" to "prevent and maintain".  It needs to be structured as member (or concierge) healthcare (like AtlasMD - https://blog.atlas.md/tag/hannity/).  Let the free market drive this, not Washington.

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Hammerclaw

"By the prickling of my thumbs

Something wicked this way comes"

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Liquid Gardens
4 hours ago, Lilly said:

By the same application of thinking then we know the Russian allegations are false too...because there's no evidence of it beyond "the usual crap conspiracy theorist pull together to support a lie."  

I may not be up to date but those don't seem equivalent.  For the Russian allegations, it's pretty much already in evidence that Russia attempted to influence the election, although we don't know if Trump had anything to do with it.  There's no counterpart to that for Trump's statement that Obama wiretapped him, we don't even know if he was wiretapped at all.  In one case we know wrongdoing occurred and we're trying to determine who all was in on it; in the other we don't know if the claim is even true nor if how it was accomplished constitutes 'wrongdoing'.  That 'crap' seems significantly different to me.

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Lilly
43 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

"By the prickling of my thumbs

Something wicked this way comes"

The witch said both this and what I quoted (check it out). She was pretty sure of herself to have said it twice. I'm pretty sure as well.

Edited by Lilly

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and then
4 hours ago, Claire. said:

Actually, there is indeed evidence beyond the usual crap, at least enough to merit not one investigation, but several.

Finally!  I'm so glad it's been submitted for our inspection.  We've been hearing and reading about it for months now.  Where is your link?

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Lilly
5 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I may not be up to date but those don't seem equivalent.  For the Russian allegations, it's pretty much already in evidence that Russia attempted to influence the election, although we don't know if Trump had anything to do with it.  There's no counterpart to that for Trump's statement that Obama wiretapped him, we don't even know if he was wiretapped at all.  In one case we know wrongdoing occurred and we're trying to determine who all was in on it; in the other we don't know if the claim is even true nor if how it was accomplished constitutes 'wrongdoing'.  That 'crap' seems significantly different to me.

Exactly, we don't know if Trump had anything to do with the Russians. We don't know if anyone wiretapped Trump Tower. We don't know if Obama or his Justice Department was involved.

Notice how many 'we don't knows' are involved here? This is why I refuse to conclude much of anything until those 'we don't knows' are answered.

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RavenHawk
8 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

There's no counterpart to that for Trump's statement that Obama wiretapped him, we don't even know if he was wiretapped at all.  In one case we know wrongdoing occurred and we're trying to determine who all was in on it; in the other we don't know if the claim is even true nor if how it was accomplished constitutes 'wrongdoing'.  That 'crap' seems significantly different to me.

Phone calls between Trump and Enrique Pena Nieto and Trump and Malcom Turnbull were leaked (i.e. from being tapped).  Flynn was tapped talking to Sergey Kislyak (where was Flynn located when that happened?).  Who has the power to do this?  Admittedly, the onus is on Trump to shut this down.  In the old days you would just execute the old apparatus.  Obama may or may not be directly involved but he is the one that had 8 years to emplace an apparatus loyal to him and his bidding.

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BlackBearWolf

So i have a theory of what is going on.

President Trump has business and political contacts in Russia who see alot of benefits in him being Potus. The Russians play a normal political game on the surface and have normal talks with Trump campaign regarding their concerns and wants for the next possible administration.  The Trump administration never ask for political espionage against Clinton  (except for Trumps "joke" asking Putin to hack)

Meanwhile the US Intelegence agency is monitoring all communications of Russian agents. The fact they have recordings of them talking to trump campaign like flynn is eveidemce of this.

So in summary I believe theTrump campaign were talking to Russians but on a benign level of political wants and needs between the two with no evidence of collusion to affect the outcome of the elections. (The russians acted on thier own to hack Hillary to get the guy they could work with better)

Meanwhile the government was only monitoring Russian political operatives not directly targeting Trump or his campaign. Thus them saying no wire taps ordered against the campaign remains true.

I believe if there was a smoking gun against Trump the FBI would have already charged him to prevent further damage to our countries sovereignty. Also it is a huge stretch to imagine Obama was asking the Intelligence community to conduct illegal surveillance of Trump. Because if it was illegally obtained it could not be used as evidence anyhow....

I feel this is what will come to light based upon available evidence.

 

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AnchorSteam
29 minutes ago, Lilly said:

Exactly, we don't know if Trump had anything to do with the Russians. We don't know if anyone wiretapped Trump Tower. We don't know if Obama or his Justice Department was involved.

Notice how many 'we don't knows' are involved here? This is why I refuse to conclude much of anything until those 'we don't knows' are answered.

Which means it is time to tune-out for a while.... the Media is making too much money on selling us pure speculation.

I'll check back in sometime this weekend, time to go have fun with some other stuff. 

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Merc14
46 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I may not be up to date but those don't seem equivalent.  For the Russian allegations, it's pretty much already in evidence that Russia attempted to influence the election, although we don't know if Trump had anything to do with it.  There's no counterpart to that for Trump's statement that Obama wiretapped him, we don't even know if he was wiretapped at all.  In one case we know wrongdoing occurred and we're trying to determine who all was in on it; in the other we don't know if the claim is even true nor if how it was accomplished constitutes 'wrongdoing'.  That 'crap' seems significantly different to me.

Exactly what evidence are you talking about?  

17 hours ago, F3SS said:

Jesus man I'll tell you I don't know where my mind is some days. Too many places I guess. Holy crap lol. Yes I am the Father of Twins! Good grief :hmm:

Congrats F3SS and a father of just turning one twins is allowed to be a little scrambled!  :tu:

 

 

 

Edited by Merc14
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Liquid Gardens
19 minutes ago, Lilly said:

Exactly, we don't know if Trump had anything to do with the Russians. We don't know if anyone wiretapped Trump Tower. We don't know if Obama or his Justice Department was involved.

Notice how many 'we don't knows' are involved here? This is why I refuse to conclude much of anything until those 'we don't knows' are answered.

Agreed, except in one case we know that a 'crime' occurred and we're looking for all the culprits; in the other, we don't know if a 'crime' occurred.  In addition, in Trump's accusation, the 'we don't knows' can be instantaneously answered by Trump himself, assuming our double standards have not become so warped that it's kosher now that the POTUS accuses an ex-president of wire-tapping without evidence.  In one case, Trump's involvement if any with Russian election tampering, there is an investigation ongoing and I don't think anyone in the government has come right out and stated that 'Trump colluded with the Russians to corrupt the election. So sad!'; in the other, one would think that the necessary investigation has already been completed since Trump made the accusation.  Even if we analogize this to 'conspiracy' theories, it's like comparing the idea that Bush/Cheney were behind 9/11 to the idea that Bush/Cheney are actually reptilian aliens;  they both use faulty reasoning, but not faulty reasoning that is equivalent in volume or 'faultyness'.  I'm not saying that you disagree with any of that though.

I refuse to conclude anything either, except 1) if the Obama wiretapping claim is true Trump has terribly mishandled it and it's fairly inexplicable that he has yet to provide any evidence (which we would 'normally' expect to be provided right along with the accusation) and 2) it isn't acceptable if Trump's wiretapping claim just fades away and is forgotten without resolution or is not shown conclusively to be the case by the evidence.

Quote

Also, keep in mind that if Trump's campaign had inappropriate contact with Russians then he will likely be impeached and we'll get Pence. 

Sounds good to me; at this point we should all be pushing for "President Pence".

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RavenHawk
6 minutes ago, BlackBearWolf said:

So i have a theory of what is going on.

I feel this is what will come to light based upon available evidence.

That is perhaps very close but you seemed shocked or disappointed that using common sense brought you to this conclusion??  I don’t think Putin really cares who POTUS is.  Their hacking was intel gathering for later on, not to influence the election.  If it was to influence the election, it wasn’t to help Trump as it was that I think Putin couldn’t stand Hilary (that’s why he can’t be all that bad :lol: ).  And I believe that the evidence exists that other players were involved in the hacking and these are the sources for the Podesta email leaks, etc.  But the thing remains that these leaks of Trump are still a felony and it was Obama’s Administration that was involved.

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Liquid Gardens
20 minutes ago, Merc14 said:

Exactly what evidence are you talking about?  

https://www.us-cert.gov/sites/default/files/publications/JAR_16-20296A_GRIZZLY STEPPE-2016-1229.pdf

Quote

This Joint Analysis Report (JAR) is the result of analytic efforts between the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). This document provides technical details regarding the tools and infrastructure used by the Russian civilian and military intelligence Services (RIS) to compromise and exploit networks and endpoints associated with the U.S. election, as well as a range of U.S. Government, political, and private sector entities. The U.S. Government is referring to this malicious cyber activity by RIS as GRIZZLY STEPPE.

Previous JARs have not attributed malicious cyber activity to specific countries or threat actors. However, public attribution of these activities to RIS is supported by technical indicators from the U.S. Intelligence Community, DHS, FBI, the private sector, and other entities.

 

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BlackBearWolf
19 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

That is perhaps very close but you seemed shocked or disappointed that using common sense brought you to this conclusion??  I don’t think Putin really cares who POTUS is.  Their hacking was intel gathering for later on, not to influence the election.  If it was to influence the election, it wasn’t to help Trump as it was that I think Putin couldn’t stand Hilary (that’s why he can’t be all that bad :lol: ).  And I believe that the evidence exists that other players were involved in the hacking and these are the sources for the Podesta email leaks, etc.  But the thing remains that these leaks of Trump are still a felony and it was Obama’s Administration that was involved.

 

I think based on Trumps associations bussiness and cabinet, plus his on air adoration of Putin it is obviously clear Putin sees a more workable partner in Trump. Im not saying this is a bad thing. I would hope that all the major players in the world get along. Especially if the mutual goal is to destroy Islamic extremists.

The leaks are illegal but you are jumping to conclusions in placing blame on leaks to Obama. Lets not accuse without evidence as a new rule of thumb for this administration and all future.. that would be wise

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