Let's talk history

[back to earth]

15 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Atleast you guys aren't named after a pastry like we are. 

        

[back to earth]

1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

 

Doh .... 

 

1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

Well there is that oldest vase ever found in Egypt, with a man lying down in a boat

( Ahhh .... thats how you do it  )

Which one is that Docy ?  Gotta pic of it ?    

Lots of different cultures had men lying down in boats, usually as a burial or signifying an afterlife journey ?  

I dont see  that symbol as specifically AE ,  without seeing the image, or knowing the age. 

The rock art cited above is +5000 years old. 

 

 

[kmt_sesh]

2 hours ago, Hanslune said:

In the 19th century the Empire referred to the the Americans as jonathans, Our cousins, The Queenless, the lost royals, Staters, Yankees and few others less agreeable terms.

Jonathans? Really? I didn't know that. I wonder why? My real name is John, so I guess I should be flattered. Or should I?

I suppose to placate back to earth we Americans could all call ourselves Yankees. I have no problem with that—but most of the South sure would. It would probably reignite the Civil War,

[kmt_sesh]

4 hours ago, internetperson said:

Next question:

I'm fascinated in religions in general but I'll keep this one to AE. How did AE originally form its religion? It's not like they borrowed from anyone else, so who made it up? Or was it more of a collection of ideas that slowly formed together in 1 big religion? What would've it been called? Hopefully it has a cool name. How would the average blue collar AE person practice their religion, if at all?

Wow, that's a big question. The formation of ancient Egyptian religion could occupy a thread all its own (and is the subject of a great many books), so I'll try to be brief.

First off, the term "religion" as most of us moderns apply it really had no cognate in ancient societies like pharaonic Egypt. There was almost no clear separation of secular and sacred—the divine was always among us and permeated all aspects of life. And because of that, there really wasn't a name for the religion as practiced in ancient Egypt. That's what you would find with most ancient civilizations in that part of the world. Religion was just a part of life. Terms like Judaism and Christianity are relatively modern.

Also, it wasn't a codified, dogmatic religion like modern Judaism and Christianity are. You have to look at prehistoric Egypt, before the state existed. Each region had its own preferred deities, and it was only through state formation (c. 3100 BCE) that a recognizable state religion began to take form. Still, if you lived in the deep southern Nile Valley, you tended to worship somewhat different deities from those recognized in the Delta far to the north. That's why gods like Khnum were always so important in the southernmost area while deities like Sokar and Ptah were more of a northern phenomenon. Although, to be sure, the advent of powerful kings helped to support a wide variety of deities, so that none of them in the Nile Valley were neglected by the state. And if you were an ordinary person traveling along the Nile, you could still venerate your gods back home but it was best for you at the same time to pay homage to the deities in the regions through which you travelled.

Deities came and went. Osiris is a good example. As ubiquitous as he is among modern people with a casual interest, Osiris did not appear on the scene until late in Dynasty 5. His precise origins are still not known. Another good example is Amun, the primary god of the New Kingdom and always of great importance well beyond that period. But he began as a minor deity in the Theban region, and grew in such importance only due to the sponsorship of powerful kings from Thebes.

I could go on and on and I promised to try to keep it brief. Looks like I've already blown that. But I'll end by saying the Egyptians certainly did borrow from others, including deities. Most agree the household god Bes, protector of children, was originally a Sudanese deity; some even suggest this of Horus, the great falcon god. And other deities were welcomed into the culture, such as the Canaanite goddess Kadesh. This borrowing from other cultures was commonplace among ancient Near Eastern religions.

[kmt_sesh]

8 hours ago, ShadowSot said:

Ah, I see. Bob Brier mentioned it in his audio lecture (and yes it was the Red Chapel - very Game of Thrones name there) were he proposed it had been partially preserved by her successor on purpose. 

...

I welcome any Game of Thrones reference.  I often use the show as an analogy when I'm giving tours to help visitors understand the turbulence of the First Intermediate Period.

Brier is a fantastic lecturer. I have all of his TTC lectures and I'd enjoy attending one of his lectures in person. When he sticks to mummies and paleopathology he's usually first rate and accurate. I stress "usually" because he often goes on about putting desiccated kidneys in one of the canopic jars, and those were organs the ancient embalmers actually did not seem to care about much. It's when he goes into broader fields that he seems to make obvious errors. I don't recall his talk on the Red Chapel, but the fact is, while its blocks were well preserved, that's mostly because they were all stripped apart and used as filler inside other monuments. That's a great way to preserve stuff, but I rather doubt it was for the sake of preservation.

Another common error he makes is supporting the heiress theory, which states a man could not become king without marrying a royal woman (even if the man himself was a full-blood royal). This was a popular theory a very long time ago but was discarded long ago. I mean, two of the greatest kings of all were Amunhotep III and Ramesses II, and their primary wives (Tiye and Nefertari, respectively) do not seem to have been of royal birth. They may have been in the wider reaches of the royal family, but that's not the same thing. The same is true for Akhenaten and his primary wife, Nefertiti.

But I'm rambling now. I love discussing ancient Egypt.

Speaking of which, I just realized, no one has asked questions about mummies. I love mummies. Look at my avatar!

[kmt_sesh]

7 hours ago, Parsec said:

Oh wow, that is quite a broad question. 

I'll try to be reeeeally short. 

...

Pfft. I often say that. Look at my Post #129 above, where I said I'd try to be brief. Fat lotta good that did.

I'm almost never short. Well, except for real life. I'm only 5'4". Does that count?

[kmt_sesh]

2 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Well there is that oldest vase ever found in Egypt, with a man lying down in a boat

Do you have a link or image for this, docy? I can't think of the vase you're talking about. Are you sure it's not a rock painting?

[ShadowSot]

25 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

I welcome any Game of Thrones reference.  I often use the show as an analogy when I'm giving tours to help visitors understand the turbulence of the First Intermediate Period.

Brier is a fantastic lecturer. I have all of his TTC lectures and I'd enjoy attending one of his lectures in person. When he sticks to mummies and paleopathology he's usually first rate and accurate. I stress "usually" because he often goes on about putting desiccated kidneys in one of the canopic jars, and those were organs the ancient embalmers actually did not seem to care about much. It's when he goes into broader fields that he seems to make obvious errors. I don't recall his talk on the Red Chapel, but the fact is, while its blocks were well preserved, that's mostly because they were all stripped apart and used as filler inside other monuments. That's a great way to preserve stuff, but I rather doubt it was for the sake of preservation.

Another common error he makes is supporting the heiress theory, which states a man could not become king without marrying a royal woman (even if the man himself was a full-blood royal). This was a popular theory a very long time ago but was discarded long ago. I mean, two of the greatest kings of all were Amunhotep III and Ramesses II, and their primary wives (Tiye and Nefertari, respectively) do not seem to have been of royal birth. They may have been in the wider reaches of the royal family, but that's not the same thing. The same is true for Akhenaten and his primary wife, Nefertiti.

But I'm rambling now. I love discussing ancient Egypt.

Speaking of which, I just realized, no one has asked questions about mummies. I love mummies. Look at my avatar!

 Yep, I remember you took me to task on the heiress theory awhile back. 

I did think it was odd they had him lecture on Egypt history. 

 

[back to earth]

53 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

 

But I'm rambling now. I love discussing ancient Egypt.

Speaking of which, I just realized, no one has asked questions about mummies. I love mummies. Look at my avatar!

What ever happened to all the daddies ?     

And how many times have you been asked that question ? 

[back to earth]

45 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Pfft. I often say that. Look at my Post #129 above, where I said I'd try to be brief. Fat lotta good that did.

I'm almost never short. Well, except for real life. I'm only 5'4". Does that count?

  bald ,   short ,  fat and in briefs  .....    surely just at home  ...  and not at the museum ? 

[cern]

6 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Do you have a link or image for this, docy? I can't think of the vase you're talking about. Are you sure it's not a rock painting?

looks like there is something outside his coffer he doesn't want to hear

ps re religion quoting wiki

"It has been suggested that the associated cattle cult indicated in Nabta Playa marks an early evolution of Ancient Egypt's Hathor cult."

Edited March 17, 2017 by cern

[internetperson]

10 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

But I'll end by saying the Egyptians certainly did borrow from others, including deities. Most agree the household god Bes, protector of children, was originally a Sudanese deity; some even suggest this of Horus, the great falcon god. And other deities were welcomed into the culture, such as the Canaanite goddess Kadesh. This borrowing from other cultures was commonplace among ancient Near Eastern religions.

Good god do I want to ask like 17 other questions but don't really want to derail the thread too much. I think a new thread on AE religion is a great idea.

Thanks back to earth also that was a great post!

So next question, explain this:

[Taun]

12 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Jonathans? Really? I didn't know that. I wonder why? My real name is John, so I guess I should be flattered. Or should I?

I suppose to placate back to earth we Americans could all call ourselves Yankees. I have no problem with that—but most of the South sure would. It would probably reignite the Civil War,

Just be thankful we are called Americans...

(from wiki)

Amerigo Vespucci (Italian pronunciation: [ameˈriːɡo vesˈputtʃi]; March 9, 1454 – February 22, 1512) was an Italian explorer, financier, navigator and cartographer who first demonstrated that Brazil and the West Indies did not represent Asia's eastern outskirts as initially conjectured from Columbus' voyages, but instead constituted an entirely separate landmass hitherto unknown to Old Worlders.

Colloquially referred to as the New World, this second super continent came to be termed "Americas", deriving its name from Americus, the Latin version of Vespucci's first name.

 

We could have been called the United States of Vespucci....

[ShadowSot]

4 hours ago, internetperson said:

Good god do I want to ask like 17 other questions but don't really want to derail the thread too much. I think a new thread on AE religion is a great idea.

Thanks back to earth also that was a great post!

So next question, explain this:

Easy. You need to use hawk pheromones sparingly. Just a dad will do you.

[Khaemwaset]

16 hours ago, back to earth said:

  bald ,   short ,  fat and in briefs  .....    surely just at home  ...  and not at the museum ? 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2017 by Khaemwaset

[kmt_sesh]

8 hours ago, internetperson said:

Good god do I want to ask like 17 other questions but don't really want to derail the thread too much. I think a new thread on AE religion is a great idea.

Thanks back to earth also that was a great post!

So next question, explain this:

You are one of the key people keeping this thread going, so please ask away.

I was going to come up with something cheeky and snarky about the photo you found, but ShadowSot already nailed it (Post #139). Bravo, ShadowSot!

The statue in your image is pretty straight forward. Old Kingdom, probably Khafre but might be Menkaure. The "horny falcon" is actually the god Horus. His wings enfold the king to protect him, so that's what it's about. Kings and Horus were intertwined throughout dynastic history. In later dynastic times you see other winged deities like Re and Nut with their wings in a similar protective gesture, painted onto coffins. The concept had a long history in pharaonic Egypt.

[kmt_sesh]

18 hours ago, back to earth said:

  bald ,   short ,  fat and in briefs  .....    surely just at home  ...  and not at the museum ? 

 

2 hours ago, Khaemwaset said:

 

 

I don't usually run around the museum in my undies. Usually. I don't wish to scare small children. But I've often been tempted to wrap myself up like the fellow above, crawl into one of the empty niches in the catacomb section of our exhibit, and growl and shake when people lean in. I like practical jokes.

[internetperson]

I've heard a similar description but I wanted your opinion on it. Anyway, explain:

[Taun]

I have been following a youtube channel for quite some time now, called "The Great War"... The narrator - Historian Indy Neidell - Recounts the events of WWI exactly 100 years to the week later... A really good series that I recommend... I thought i would share this one episode (there are currently 362 episodes in case you are thinking of binge watching - which I did)... He gives an interesting "thumbnail" history of the Cossack people... I would be interested in seeing if any one here can comment on his data..

 

[kmt_sesh]

1 hour ago, internetperson said:

I've heard a similar description but I wanted your opinion on it. Anyway, explain:

Now you sound like a cranky old professor. "Explain!"

These are instantly recognizable: the stoppers to King Tut's canopic chest. Each of these heads covered a hole in a four-part compartment, and in each compartment, instead of a jar, went a gold coffinette. In each coffinette went one of Tut's mummified organs. So these are just lids, although spectacular. They're meant to represent the face of the king, although there's continuing conjecture that these stoppers were originally carved for someone else and were used instead for Tut's burial. The same is said of the coffinettes, as well as numerous other items found in the tomb.

Keep 'em coming! 

[back to earth]

11 hours ago, internetperson said:

Good god do I want to ask like 17 other questions but don't really want to derail the thread too much. I think a new thread on AE religion is a great idea.

Thanks back to earth also that was a great post!

So next question, explain this:

Its a common phenomena here at a certain time of year.

One is supposed to draw eyes on the back of one's nemes to discourage that .

 

        

2 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

 

 

I don't usually run around the museum in my undies. Usually. I don't wish to scare small children. But I've often been tempted to wrap myself up like the fellow above, crawl into one of the empty niches in the catacomb section of our exhibit, and growl and shake when people lean in. I like practical jokes.

Ohh , do  do that !  I am sure peeps would luv it ! 

When I worked as hospital orderly, we had a boss that was afraid to; enter  a melee ( as we were supposed to back then, also being 'security'  and 'crazy people control' ) ,   do anything 'iccky',  go near a dead body, feel sick during surgery assisting , etc . etc .

One time,  (i have a little discussion with the nurses on the ward ... and they  'tee-hee , okay ' ) , ring up the slacker and say I have to take a  body to morgue and everyone else is busy, you have to help me lift body onto morgue trolley  . He whines, but I insist. Then I ring another orderly and  we get him under the sheet. 

Boss comes in , I go "I got a bad back, you take the top end ....   as soon as he gets both hands and forearms under , out comes the guy  ;  ' Raaaagh  ! ' . 

Man, did that guy move ... and he actually had a good running style , arms and legs goin', head up straight  ... some serious speed going there ; down the corridor, past nurses station, left turn, down the main corridor, all the way around the corner .   ... then a head pops back around the corner  with the funniest look on its face ! 

Later he told us that he knew it was a work mate , but he couldnt help it, his body took off by itself !  

Edited March 18, 2017 by back to earth

[back to earth]

 Can I get two shots at this ? 

 

 

[kmt_sesh]

On March 14, 2017 at 0:08 AM, Hanslune said:

Question what was the extent and characteristics of Egyptian 'colonies' in the Levant, purely military posts to hold what is now Sinai, Israel and Palestine or more?

Oh, my poor Hanslune. You must've thought everyone was ignoring you. I was going back through the thread and only now noticed this, so I'll pipe in.

The Egyptians were never big into colonization. The one area they formally colonized was Lower Nubia, and that's because the gold was chiefly there. They established forts with permanent garrisons, starting in the Middle Kingdom. A lot of these forts are now at the bottom of Lake Nasser (which means they're all now just so much mud slurry). They also established formal governmental control over the region, and introduced a new vizier position called Viceroy of Kush—Kush was one of the Egyptian names for the northern Sudan. Here's a listing of known viceroys. The title was also commonly known as King's Son of Kush. "Son" here does not imply a necessarily familial relationship with the king, but was an honorific title. All of this overt control was due to the gold mines, as well as to ready access to other luxury goods to the south (animal pelts, incense, baboons, flora, iPads).

It was different with areas to the north. Egypt often sent campaigns into the Levant to control it, but never really colonized that region. They left garrisons scattered around Syro-Palestine to help control Canaanites and to ensure fealty. Another common practice with Canaanites, after conquering a walled city-state, was to take away the chief's or prince's eldest son and raise him in Egypt. In one respect it kept the conquered city in line because the chief knew if he rebelled, his son down in Egypt would be killed. In another respect, the son would be indoctrinated into Egyptian culture, and when he was sent home as a young man to take over his father's position, he already had ties with Egypt. As long as the Syro-Palestinians toed the line and willingly sent tribute to the Egyptian court, all was well. The Egyptians allowed them to live their lives as they saw fit.

But it rarely worked that way. Every single time the kingdom of Egypt started to wane, or a new king seemed weak, foreign vassals would rebel. It's human nature. This happened all the time. So even though Egypt maintained a formal, iron presence in Nubia and kept garrisons in the Levant, both regions often rebelled. Sometimes they were successful, and sometimes, like when Tuthmosis III was new on the throne, they made a grave error in rebelling.

The Sinai was something different. In those ancient times Egypt usually ruled large chunks of it during stable times (Old, Middle, New Kingdoms) to control its natural resources, especially valuable things like turquoise. But the region that far back in time was never really anyone's formal kingdom, and was populated by nomadic peoples like the forerunners of today's Bedouin.

Excellent question. Help yourself to some milk and cookies and take the rest of the day off. 

[kmt_sesh]

31 minutes ago, back to earth said:

...

When I worked as hospital orderly, we had a boss that was afraid to; enter  a melee ( as we were supposed to back then, also being 'security'  and 'crazy people control' ) ,   do anything 'iccky',  go near a dead body, feel sick during surgery assisting , etc . etc .

One time,  (i have a little discussion with the nurses on the ward ... and they  'tee-hee , okay ' ) , ring up the slacker and say I have to take a  body to morgue and everyone else is busy, you have to help me lift body onto morgue trolley  . He whines, but I insist. Then I ring another orderly and  we get him under the sheet. 

Boss comes in , I go "I got a bad back, you take the top end ....   as soon as he gets both hands and forearms under , out comes the guy  ;  ' Raaaagh  ! ' . 

Man, did that guy move ... and he actually had a good running style , arms and legs goin', head up straight  ... some serious speed going there ; down the corridor, past nurses station, left turn, down the main corridor, all the way around the corner .   ... then a head pops back around the corner  with the funniest look on its face ! 

Later he told us that he knew it was a work mate , but he couldnt help it, his body took off by itself !  

Back in November I spent eight days in a hospital here in Chicago. My mom was a nurse in her younger days so I've always had great respect for nurses, but because of my stay in November I have a new and very great appreciation for orderlies! Oh, man, what they have to go through. I tried my best always to be friendly and respectful with them. They deserve it.

But what you did to the boss was, well...

That is exactly the kind of practical joke I love. And I don't mind being on the receiving end of it. My sister and I grew up doing that kind of stuff to each other, and I now have a seven-year-old nephew. A fresh victim!

[back to earth]

I have questions about Nomes and their symbols.  I know a little bit, but the origins fascinates me .  How much is known about their origin and early development  ?

(I'm voting for this as best  { sensible topic } thread of the year    .... sorry, I do enjoy the crazy senseless ones  as well   )