Let's talk history

[Alchopwn]

3 hours ago, Piney said:

Algonquians throat sing too. But yeah, I love Central Asian music. Especially the Dombra and Mongolian violin. 

Piney, release an album buddy.  Algonquian throat singing.  Go for it!  Your destiny is calling you!  The Ramones were huge and they could barely keep in key.  Fortune and glory await!

[Piney]

54 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

Piney, release an album buddy.  Algonquian throat singing.  Go for it!  Your destiny is calling you!  The Ramones were huge and they could barely keep in key.  Fortune and glory await!

I smoked for 40 years and sound like that normally.  Besides, the only Canadian First Nations who still do it are the Dine' and Inuit.

Instead of mucking around in the Middle East you should of been with me for the Silk Road Foundation's Shamanism study and revival.

You would of never left Xinjiang.  

Here! Have a Kyrgyz - Kazakh dueling "banjos"..........

 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Piney
**** Atlantis

[jaylemurph]

“I should like a hat like that!”

When SARS broke out, a buddy of mine, Phil, was travelling the world, getting ready to enter Kyrgyzstan. He was going to buy me such a hat. But then the Chinese deported him. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Piney]

23 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

“I should like a hat like that!”

We sometimes have Kazakh friends come and stay for a time. I'll ask. 

[Alchopwn]

On 3/22/2020 at 5:16 AM, Piney said:

I smoked for 40 years and sound like that normally.  Besides, the only Canadian First Nations who still do it are the Dine' and Inuit.

Instead of mucking around in the Middle East you should of been with me for the Silk Road Foundation's Shamanism study and revival.

You would of never left Xinjiang.  

Here! Have a Kyrgyz - Kazakh dueling "banjos"..........

 

I think I might have enjoyed Central Asia more than the Middle East.  This is a side of your life you haven't mentioned before Piney.  As someone who was raised, by extension, as part of the shamanic tradition, did you all get together and "talk shop" ?  THAT would have been an interesting conversation.

[Piney]

Just now, Alchopwn said:

I think I might have enjoyed Central Asia more than the Middle East.  This is a side of your life you haven't mentioned before Piney.  As someone who was raised, by extension, as part of the shamanic tradition, did you all get together and "talk shop" ?  THAT would have been an interesting conversation.

I mentioned it plenty of times. I was a active "maker and handler of special and bad things" at one time.  Tribal Cultural Resource Officer is just a fancy term for "archaeologist's token medicine man". Except we have all kinds of college. 

I have a thread around here on Korean Shamanism. Another on my mask carving activities. I helped with the Korean revival because the basic theology of their Northern Tradition is the same as that of the Algonquian.

I've "talked shop" with many Tengrists. It's why I learned to speak Quipchak.....or at least get around in it.  I learned about Chinese Folk Magic too and Many of the different Jurchen traditions. One Jurchen group, the Nivkh are the Algic People's closet Asian cousins and their language could be related. 

[Alchopwn]

On 3/23/2020 at 11:59 PM, Piney said:

I mentioned it plenty of times. I was a active "maker and handler of special and bad things" at one time. 

In the white man's community we call such people "meth-cooks", yet they don't work for the Methodist cult. It's just a linguistic oddity, but linguists and anthropologists from China and India are always trying to prove a direct ritual and etymological connection.  Who knows?  They might even be proven correct?

On 3/23/2020 at 11:59 PM, Piney said:

Tribal Cultural Resource Officer is just a fancy term for "archaeologist's token medicine man". Except we have all kinds of college. 

A properly armed rabbit is never "token".  I loved your performance in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" btw.

On 3/23/2020 at 11:59 PM, Piney said:

I have a thread around here on Korean Shamanism. Another on my mask carving activities. I helped with the Korean revival because the basic theology of their Northern Tradition is the same as that of the Algonquian.

I am gonna take a good look.  I am pleased to see you write there is a connection.

On 3/23/2020 at 11:59 PM, Piney said:

I've "talked shop" with many Tengrists. It's why I learned to speak Quipchak .....or at least get around in it.  I learned about Chinese Folk Magic too and Many of the different Jurchen traditions. One Jurchen group, the Nivkh are the Algic People's closet Asian cousins and their language could be related. 

It must be pretty amazing to be able to see connections in traditions that are so far removed by time and distance, and knowing that despite the differences in language, that you are talking about the same metaphysics (for want of a better description).

[Tatetopa]

No woo intended here, I was just looking for a succor from pandemics and politics.

Reading some sagas translated by Jackson Crawford,  I got to the Saga of Ragnar Lothbrok (shaggy pants) yesterday.  He was around long before the TV series made up some episodes sort of based on his life.

In any case, his nickname, "shaggy pants" comes from an event in which he killed a dragon, often referred to as a snake in the saga .  Sort of fitting for a descendant of Sigurd. 

The saga gets specific about this.  "He ordered some clothes made for himself of a strange type, shaggy pants and a shaggy cloak, and when they were done, he ordered them boiled in pitch and put them away."  Sometime later "Ragnar woke up early in the morning, rose up, and put on the same clothes as had been previously described.  He took up a great spear in his hand and left the ships on his own. He went down to a sandy place and rolled in the sand."

He killed the dragon and "a splash of the dragon's blood hit him between the shoulders, but it did not harm him because the clothes he had made protected him." 

Other sagas describe a shirt of double rings named Emma worn by one of the English kings or most often heroic swords and spears too big for a normal man to wield.  Those might be judged to be proof against claws and teeth.  Ragnar seemed to be wearing clothing of undressed leather treated to ward off poison and not protection against physical blows or cuts.  Wearing pitch covered garments and then  rolling in sand seems such a specific preparation to meet a dragon.

I thought I would share it as something  rather unique and entertaining. Maybe someone knowledgeable has comments.

 

 

[BorizBadinov]

Perhaps a description of lamellar armor? Made from leather pieces that are boiled to harden and imbued with bees wax (or perhaps tar as well). Tied together kind of like scale mail they have a shaggy appearance you could say. From what I think I recall it originated with the Norse and few original examples survived but someone here probably knows more details.

[Hanslune]

The Visby site gave us a good idea on what armour looked like:

https://www.pinterest.com/granathdaniel/armour-battle-of-visby-1361/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Visby

https://historiska.se/utstallningar/medieval-massacre/

 

 

[Piney]

21 hours ago, BorizBadinov said:

Perhaps a description of lamellar armor? Made from leather pieces that are boiled to harden and imbued with bees wax (or perhaps tar as well). Tied together kind of like scale mail they have a shaggy appearance you could say. From what I think I recall it originated with the Norse and few original examples survived but someone here probably knows more details.

It originated on the Pontic-Caspian Steppe and was made from leather, iron and even horse hooves.  

[BorizBadinov]

There was only a limited historical description in one of my armoring books that I recall but I think it had some of the same pictures but not in color.

What reminded me of it was recreating the hardening process in my oven and the look when it was laced compared to the description in Tateopa's post. 

I knew you guys would know good details.

[Piney]

2 hours ago, BorizBadinov said:

There was only a limited historical description in one of my armoring books that I recall but I think it had some of the same pictures but not in color.

What reminded me of it was recreating the hardening process in my oven and the look when it was laced compared to the description in Tateopa's post. 

I knew you guys would know good details.

Try digging for some Hermitage Museum pictures. They have lots of examples there. 

[Tatetopa]

Thanks.  You could be right.

I have done the oven made cuir bouilli.  My take was that that was a pretty well known technique and would not be call "strange".

I think the Visby finds are town levies and peasants armor for the most part.  The professional soldiers of the Danish king pretty well cut them to ribbons.  Only a guess, but I suspect the mercenaries in the pay of King Valdemar had better kit. I think that is where the description of one skeleton with both legs severed by a single blow comes from.  Maybe a two handed ax like the Danish axes King Harold's housekarls were using against horse and knight three hundred years before on the Bayeaux tapestry.   The Visby kit is more like transition armor isn't it? It was from that time when mail was being reinforced by plates before the transition to full plate soon after.

Don't know that it makes a difference, but Visby was about 400 years after Ragnar supposedly fought that wurm.

In any case, Ragnar's gear was not designed to impress and certainly not what a chieftain would wear to make a good impression on a king and princess.  From the description, shaggy hides boiled in pitch and covered in sand it sounds butt ugly.

Butt ugly, but apparently functional. That warrior practicality seems counter to the stereotypical description of heroic Sigmund, and Sigurd, and their Volsung relatives resplendent with gold hilted swords, gold rings on their arms, and a gold trimmed bright shirts of rings.

I do rather like it.  Thanks for the discussion.

 

[BorizBadinov]

From a functional point of view if one left the hair on the hide it would help hold the tar in place. The sand in the tar would create a gummy gritty surface that would slow even a sharp blade and dull it. Like cutting an asphalt shingle. The hair should also create a fiber cushion layer, the more individual things one has to cut through the harder it is. Definitely not pretty though in a battle looking rough and shaggy could make an opponent less confident and possibly hesitate to engage.

Maybe a description of berserkr  (bear shirt)?  

[Piney]

21 minutes ago, BorizBadinov said:

Maybe a description of berserkr  (bear shirt)?  

That's probably a more reasonable explanation. 

[Piney]

11 hours ago, BorizBadinov said:

There was only a limited historical description in one of my armoring books that I recall but I think it had some of the same pictures but not in color.

Uralic or Paleo-Siberian reindeer antler lamella armor. 

https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2017/03/2000-year-old-warrior-armour-made-of.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+TheArchaeologyNewsNetwork+(The+Archaeology+News+Network)#seYe4IAbWG0zV6GO.97

I was looking for some Andronovo Horizon stuff. Google Images is loaded with it. 

[BorizBadinov]

4 hours ago, Piney said:

Uralic or Paleo-Siberian reindeer antler lamella armor. 

https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2017/03/2000-year-old-warrior-armour-made-of.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+TheArchaeologyNewsNetwork+(The+Archaeology+News+Network)#seYe4IAbWG0zV6GO.97

I was looking for some Andronovo Horizon stuff. Google Images is loaded with it. 

That's impressive. I bet those suits were pretty fierce looking indeed. 

[jmccr8]

10 minutes ago, BorizBadinov said:

That's impressive. I bet those suits were pretty fierce looking indeed. 

make up Sax and bare suits can be pretty fierce looking too

jmccr8

[Tatetopa]

Native american (Sitka Alaska) Tlingit leather war dress plated with Chinese coins. The Tlingit received Chinese coins in trade from Boston sea merchants in exchange for sea otter pelts. Chinese coins were used as currency during the Qing dynasty. Most were minted in the Shunzhi (1644–62), Kangxi (1662–1723), and Yongzheng (1723–36) eras, as identified by their reign marks.

 

 

Alaskan Tlingit warrior with wooden slat armor and helmet with bevor, as well as leather armor on his right arm, body and a collar. The left wooden armguard could be a greaves.

 

 

This might be another coin variation.

 

 

[Piney]

Bryant-Patton

'The Indo-Aryan Controversy'  aka 'A Complete Bloody Car Crash'

https://www.academia.edu/21238329/Bryant_Patton_-_The_Indo-Aryan_Controversy?email_work_card=view-paper

[Piney]

At about :29 Jason Martell makes one of the most ignorant and racist statements in his history of woocrap. 

 

 

[Hanslune]

Anthropologist/archaeology humor:

 

[Hanslune]

5 hours ago, Piney said:

At about :29 Jason Martell makes one of the most ignorant and racist statements in his history of woocrap. 

 

 

Oh my that is pretty idiotic but I've heard worse. I remember hearing stuff like this years ago on USENET alt. archaeology. I noted that if a Pope, or Imaum, Kannushi etc., does something they often say it was done with God's help or assistance....

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

On 3/22/2020 at 4:55 AM, jaylemurph said:

“I should like a hat like that!”

You are the second Doctor, and I claim my five quid.