Let's talk history

[ShadowSot]

2 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

Not entirely. I'm wearing mine tonight.

 

[atalante]

There is new information about the Sea Peoples invasion of Egypt.

quote from: http:// https://phys.org/news/2017-10-luwian-hieroglyphic-inscription-bronze-age.html

An interdisciplinary team of Swiss and Dutch archaeologists today announced the rediscovery of a 29-meter-long Luwian hieroglyphic inscription that describes the events at the end of the Bronze Age in the Eastern Mediterranean. One of the greatest puzzles of Mediterranean archeology can thus be plausibly solved.

The 35-cm tall limestone frieze was found back in 1878 in the village of Beyköy, approximately 34 kilometers north of Afyonkarahisar in modern Turkey. It bears the longest known hieroglyphic inscription from the Bronze Age. Soon after local peasants retrieved the stones from the ground, the French archeologist Georges Perrot was able to carefully copy the inscription. However, the villagers subsequently used the stones as building material for the foundation of their mosque.

 

From about 1950 onwards, Luwian hieroglyphs could be read. At the time, a Turkish/US-American team of experts was established to translate this and other inscriptions that during the 19th century had made their way into the collections of the Ottoman Empire. However, the publication was delayed again and again. Ultimately, around 1985, all the researchers involved in the project had died. Copies of these inscriptions resurfaced recently in the estate of the English prehistorian James Mellaart, who died in 2012. In June 2017, Mellaart's son Alan handed over this part of the legacy to the Swiss geoarcheologist Dr. Eberhard Zangger, president of the Luwian Studies foundation, to edit and publish the material in due course.

The academic publication of the inscription will appear in December 2017 in the Proceedings of the Dutch Archaeological and Historical Society – TALANTA. Among other things, Zangger and the Dutch linguist and expert in Luwian language and script, Dr. Fred Woudhuizen, will present a transcription, a translation, a detailed commentary, and the remarkable research history of the find.

The inscription and a summary of its contents also appear in a book by Eberhard Zangger that is being published in Germany today: Die Luwier und der Trojanische Krieg – Eine Forschungsgeschichte. 

According to Zangger, the inscription was commissioned by Kupanta-Kurunta, the Great King of Mira, a Late Bronze Age state in western Asia Minor. When Kupanta-Kurunta had reinforced his realm, just before 1190 BC, he ordered his armies to storm toward the east against the vassal states of the Hittites. After successful conquests on land, the united forces of western Asia Minor also formed a fleet and invaded a number of coastal cities (whose names are given) in the south and southeast of Asia Minor, as well as in Syria and Palestine. Four great princes commanded the naval forces, among them Muksus from the Troad, the region of ancient Troy. The Luwians from western Asia Minor advanced all the way to the borders of Egypt, and even built a fortress at Ashkelon in southern Palestine.

According to this inscription, the Luwians from western Asia Minor contributed decisively to the so-called Sea Peoples' invasions – and thus to the end of the Bronze Age in the eastern Mediterranean.

[Jarocal]

Nice find, but I have to wait until December for the academic paper.

That's like forever for us impatient people...

[kmt_sesh]

1 minute ago, Jarocal said:

Nice find, but I have to wait until December for the academic paper.

That's like forever for us impatient people...

You'll always have us cat lovers to keep you entertained till then.

[Jarocal]

11 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

You'll always have us cat lovers to keep you entertained till then.

While mildly entertaining, Cat lovers tend to drone on ad nauseam about the prowes/glory of a civilization comprised by a population of stinky footed bumpkins who were content dragging limestone blocks into piles. Well stacking rocks in piles when they weren't busy pilfering technologies to poorly copy and not truly understand from more intelligent Levantine Cultures.

[TheBIHLover]

I have a few questions.

What is your perspective on history? Do you use the past to study the present?

[TheBIHLover]

According to Leopold von Ranke, historians should write about the ''real'' history - not about morality and analogies (correct me if I am wrong). Do you think we will find the ''real'' history of the past?

[jaylemurph]

1 minute ago, TheBIHLover said:

According to Leopold von Ranke, historians should write about the ''real'' history - not about morality and analogies (correct me if I am wrong). Do you think we will find the ''real'' history of the past?

Well, first of all, Ranke is from the 19th Century. Citing him is a bit like asking a 19th Century chirurgeon for medical advice: you might lose your arm for saying you have a splinter. That said, Ranke was an important influence on later historians, stressing use of primary sources and narrative.

But he also uses a definition of history completely different from this idea of "real" history you seem to be using. There is no "true" or "real" history. History is always an interpretation of events, not the events themselves. As different historical information becomes available and new historiographic techniques are developed, that interpretation changes. Those changes don't make history more "true" or more "real."

--Jaylemurph

[TheBIHLover]

9 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Well, first of all, Ranke is from the 19th Century. Citing him is a bit like asking a 19th Century chirurgeon for medical advice: you might lose your arm for saying you have a splinter. That said, Ranke was an important influence on later historians, stressing use of primary sources and narrative.

But he also uses a definition of history completely different from this idea of "real" history you seem to be using. There is no "true" or "real" history. History is always an interpretation of events, not the events themselves. As different historical information becomes available and new historiographic techniques are developed, that interpretation changes. Those changes don't make history more "true" or more "real."

--Jaylemurph

I just asked a question. I don't see any problem with that. 

Well, he thought that historians may reconstruct the history. Later that has been proved to be problematic, because of different perspectives on history, considering where you are and which time you are in. Some view history as ''progressive'' to reach a common goal, like Comte or Marx and some view history as ''destined'' to repeat itself like Toynbee and Spengler.  

Edited October 14, 2017 by TheBIHLover

[Essan]

30 minutes ago, TheBIHLover said:

I have a few questions.

What is your perspective on history? Do you use the past to study the present?

No, I use the past to understand where today came from

[TheBIHLover]

10 minutes ago, Essan said:

No, I use the past to understand where today came from

Had Montesquieu the same view as you? 

[TheBIHLover]

My questions may seem random, but I am trying to understand better what these historians meant, since I study history. Your help is appreciated. 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

3 hours ago, TheBIHLover said:

I have a few questions.

What is your perspective on history? Do you use the past to study the present?

The analogy I use with my older students is “today is like a house, everything goes on in it. History is the floor and walls of the house, nothing can happen without the house, without history”.

[TheBIHLover]

8 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

The analogy I use with my older students is “today is like a house, everything goes on in it. History is the floor and walls of the house, nothing can happen without the house, without history”.

Interesting thought - in which history is forming societies.

Edited October 15, 2017 by TheBIHLover

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

1 hour ago, TheBIHLover said:

Interesting thought - in which history is forming societies.

Informing understanding of societies, I’d argue that history is a view from the top of a hill of the path we followed to reach the peak. It’s a quibble I know,  but history is a painting, while society is an orchestra. 

[TheBIHLover]

1 hour ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Informing understanding of societies, I’d argue that history is a view from the top of a hill of the path we followed to reach the peak. It’s a quibble I know,  but history is a painting, while society is an orchestra. 

Do you think historians may reconstruct the history like Ranke wanted it or do you think historians only construct it in their own view? 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

49 minutes ago, TheBIHLover said:

Do you think historians may reconstruct the history like Ranke wanted it or do you think historians only construct it in their own view? 

Yes

 

Take The Celts for example, some call them cultureless barbarians, civilised only by assimilating ideas from those they met. Others call them the first european stargazers, expert physicians and miners, with a rich mythology. It depends on the writer and what they want to say.

[Essan]

I misread that as cats ..........

[TheBIHLover]

1 hour ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Yes

 

Take The Celts for example, some call them cultureless barbarians, civilised only by assimilating ideas from those they met. Others call them the first european stargazers, expert physicians and miners, with a rich mythology. It depends on the writer and what they want to say.

Aha, okay. I agree - we may never reconstruct the ''real'' history. Thanks!

[Kenemet]

20 hours ago, TheBIHLover said:

I have a few questions.

What is your perspective on history? Do you use the past to study the present?

No.  Societies are essentially superwicked chaotic systems.  They will not repeat the past exactly.  While you can see patterns and analogies and results of previous policies, they will not duplicate themselves because systems change drastically and rapidly.

[Kenemet]

5 hours ago, TheBIHLover said:

Do you think historians may reconstruct the history like Ranke wanted it or do you think historians only construct it in their own view? 

 

Depends in part whether you mean scholars who are specialists or popularizers and textbook authors or even armchair speculators.  There's some overlap -- but not a lot in these groups.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Kenemet

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

11 hours ago, Essan said:

I misread that as cats ..........

It is a long established fact that the true history of the cats has been suppressed by the droolsome overlords that writh in ham-scented floppitude at the centre of reality.

[Hanslune]

Well as this seems to be degrading into a dog and cat fight

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/chapman-university-survey-finds-majority-of-americans-now-believe-in-ancient-advanced-civilization-while-a-third-believe-in-ancient-astronauts

Quote

Chapman University Survey Finds Majority of Americans Now Believe in Ancient Advanced Civilization, While a Third Believe in Ancient Astronauts

Edited October 15, 2017 by Hanslune
Added image

[Swede]

34 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Well as this seems to be degrading into a dog and cat fight

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/chapman-university-survey-finds-majority-of-americans-now-believe-in-ancient-advanced-civilization-while-a-third-believe-in-ancient-astronauts

Ah, yes. Apparently Orange County, CA. Certainly the seat of rationality and wisdom.

.

[Jarocal]

2 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

It is a long established fact that the true history of the cats has been suppressed by the droolsome overlords that writh in ham-scented floppitude at the centre of reality.

I pray thee speak no such blasphemy even in jest.

  The true nature of evil, demonic, feline deities has never been suppressed by our Glorious Past Basset Masters (may their ears be ever long).

  That mankind succumbed to the temptation and falsehoods set forth by the evil feline demons which plague Earth has caused such willful environmental destruction and strife between men as we have seen since the departure of our Past Basset Masters into the heavens for the land that flows with ham and charcuterie.