Let's talk history

[Kenemet]

26 minutes ago, The Wistman said:

Can anybody point me to a good translation of the inscription on the foot of the KV55 rishi coffin?  I'm having a bit of trouble finding one, other than (yipes!) Velikovski's, from his 1960 book Oedipus and Akhenaten, but there are of course questions about its veracity.  Thanks.

Do you mean this

or is there an inscription on the bottom of the foot?

[Wistman]

That's the coffin, the inscription's on the bottom.  I added a blurry photo of it to my earlier post.

[SHaYap]

35 minutes ago, The Wistman said:

Sorry.  Should've said your post.

It's okay, I just thought I better clarify it just in case I got lynched for taking credit for something I didn't do

~

[M. Williams]

The oldest recorded event ? Gotta be "Two Bulls Staring at Each Other" in Lascaux Cave,17,000bce. Wasn't a  very exciting event. 

 

[Kenemet]

1 hour ago, M. Williams said:

The oldest recorded event ? Gotta be "Two Bulls Staring at Each Other" in Lascaux Cave,17,000bce. Wasn't a  very exciting event. 

 

Amusing, but I would submit that it doesn't count.  We don't know anything about a date or if the bulls are symbolic or wistful thinking (animals that they want killed) or spiritual or what.  There are a number of intriguing artifacts from that time period, but they don't record any sort of date.

Rock art occasionally DOES show real events; the most famous I know of is the Chumash depiction of the Crab Nebula formation.  I've also seen some rock art depicting battles between Native Americans and ranchers which was dated by the ranchers' details of the raid (a young girl was killed, which made it notable.)

A good question would be whether something like a wine jar tag counted.  It serves as an inventory that a wine was produced in a certain area during a certain time.  But should that be counted as a historical event?

[Wistman]

21 hours ago, The Wistman said:

Can anybody point me to a good translation of the inscription on the foot of the KV55 rishi coffin?  I'm having a bit of trouble finding one, other than (yipes!) Velikovski's, from his 1960 book Oedipus and Akhenaten, but there are of course questions about its veracity.  Thanks.

eta:  Here's a (poor) image of the foot of the KV55 coffin...the only one I could find:

Some of the excised cartouches, etc. can be seen, but otherwise the inscription is indistinct in this photo.

I know this question is somewhat arcane, but I could really use an accurate translation of this inscription. From what I found, there is cursory reference to it in many places, but only as an 'Atenist prayer.'  This is KV55, the important mummy, the important coffin.  The inscription must surely be available for reading somewhere.  I've searched Arthur Weigall's work, not with much depth though...he seemed to me to be the most likely source, but I've so far not found the item.

I do not wish to use the Velikovsky material, for obvious reasons.  He represents the inscription as a poem devised by one "Merit", which is certainly suggestive...but perhaps he just made that part up; why not if verification his translation is not so easy.  His rendering of the 'poem' is as follows:

I inhale the sweet breeze that comes from thy mouth
I contemplate thy beauty every day.
It’s my desire to hear thy lovely voice like the north wind’s whiff.
Love will rejuvenate my limbs.
Give me thy hands that hold thy soul
I shall embrace and live by it.
Call me by name again, again, forever and never will it sound without response.

Any help would be most appreciated.  @kmt_sesh...any ideas where I might look?  Anybody?

I have to do a presentation and would like to include this.  But if all I have is the Velikovsky, without corroboration, I'll use something else.

[Kenemet]

7 minutes ago, The Wistman said:

I know this question is somewhat arcane, but I could really use an accurate translation of this inscription. From what I found, there is cursory reference to it in many places, but only as an 'Atenist prayer.'  This is KV55, the important mummy, the important coffin.  The inscription must surely be available for reading somewhere.  I've searched Arthur Weigall's work, not with much depth though...he seemed to me to be the most likely source, but I've so far not found the item.

I do not wish to use the Velikovsky material, for obvious reasons.  He represents the inscription as a poem devised by one "Merit", which is certainly suggestive...but perhaps he just made that part up; why not if verification his translation is not so easy.  His rendering of the 'poem' is as follows:

I inhale the sweet breeze that comes from thy mouth
I contemplate thy beauty every day.
It’s my desire to hear thy lovely voice like the north wind’s whiff.
Love will rejuvenate my limbs.
Give me thy hands that hold thy soul
I shall embrace and live by it.
Call me by name again, again, forever and never will it sound without response.

Any help would be most appreciated.  @kmt_sesh...any ideas where I might look?  Anybody?

I have to do a presentation and would like to include this.  But if all I have is the Velikovsky, without corroboration, I'll use something else.

It *might* be in PEREPELKIN, JU. The secret of the gold coffin. PUBLISHING HOUSE, 1978. 

In spite of the peculiar title, this is a book that's been cited by a number of reputable Egyptologists.

Another way to search for it would be to see if you can figure out which museum it's at (and what its previous home was if it's back in Egypt) and then search for that catalog number.  I've got a bunch of stuff on my plate and can't do that right now or I'd look it up.

 

[Windowpane]

22 hours ago, The Wistman said:

Can anybody point me to a good translation of the inscription on the foot of the KV55 rishi coffin?  I'm having a bit of trouble finding one, other than (yipes!) Velikovski's, from his 1960 book Oedipus and Akhenaten, but there are of course questions about its veracity.  Thanks.

eta:  Here's a (poor) image of the foot of the KV55 coffin...the only one I could find:

Some of the excised cartouches, etc. can be seen, but otherwise the inscription is indistinct in this photo.

Wistman,

Would this be a better picture of the same coffin?  

[Wistman]

1 minute ago, Windowpane said:

Wistman,

Would this be a better picture of the same coffin?  

Thanks Windowpane, it is indeed the same coffin and a far more legible image.

[Windowpane]

I don't know whether this bibliography would be any help (you might have seen it already).

One thing in its favour is that it doesn't mention Velikovsky ...

[Wistman]

57 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

I don't know whether this bibliography would be any help (you might have seen it already).

One thing in its favour is that it doesn't mention Velikovsky ...

  Thanks...you're right, I've already perused the list, followed the leads as best I may.

[Wistman]

heh-heh!  Found it, in Wiegall, as I suspected.  "The Life and Times of Akhenaten", pg. 249. Gardiner's translation (very close to V's version).

https://archive.org/details/rslifetimesofakh00weiguoft/page/n297

Thanks @Kenemet  and @Windowpane for your input. 

eta: Wiegall believed at the time that the inscription was composed by Akhenaten himself, whom he thought was the occupier of the coffin.  No mention of the 'Merit' that V. claims as the author.  (Rather a weird claim to have made, but it was V.)

Edited December 7, 2018 by The Wistman

[Kenemet]

24 minutes ago, The Wistman said:

heh-heh!  Found it, in Wiegall, as I suspected.  "The Life and Times of Akhenaten", pg. 249. Gardiner's translation (very close to V's version).

https://archive.org/details/rslifetimesofakh00weiguoft/page/n297

Thanks @Kenemet  and @Windowpane for your input. 

eta: Wiegall believed at the time that the inscription was composed by Akhenaten himself, whom he thought was the occupier of the coffin.  No mention of the 'Merit' that V. claims as the author.  (Rather a weird claim to have made, but it was V.)

I wonder if a retranslation could improve on it.  However, it's a very lovely piece.

[Tatetopa]

I hope you don't mind shifting your expertise to Northern Europe for a moment.

I have a question about Northern European gods, specifically Odin and Thor.   When iron  working skill matured in Northern Europe, the sword became the weapon of choice for elites and every other warrior that could obtain one.  It takes a lot of skill to make a good sword, it takes less iron and lower purity to make a spear head.

Odin has notably a spear, not a sword.  One might think the leader of the Aesir would have a beautiful, named, magical sword.  We know the name of his steed for pity sake.  Thor is associated with a hammer, a mighty one with a name, but no sword either.  My question is: does that imply that the character and stories associated with these gods were begun prior to the blossoming of the Iron Age in Northern Europe?  A hammer or war club is about as basic a weapon as you can get.  Does Thor in one form or another go back a very long way?  Did Odin come along  later?  Since there were no written records,  I just wondered if these were clues of their provenance. Thanks in advance and cheers.

[danydandan]

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

I hope you don't mind shifting your expertise to Northern Europe for a moment.

I have a question about Northern European gods, specifically Odin and Thor.   When iron  working skill matured in Northern Europe, the sword became the weapon of choice for elites and every other warrior that could obtain one.  It takes a lot of skill to make a good sword, it takes less iron and lower purity to make a spear head.

Odin has notably a spear, not a sword.  One might think the leader of the Aesir would have a beautiful, named, magical sword.  We know the name of his steed for pity sake.  Thor is associated with a hammer, a mighty one with a name, but no sword either.  My question is: does that imply that the character and stories associated with these gods were begun prior to the blossoming of the Iron Age in Northern Europe?  A hammer or war club is about as basic a weapon as you can get.  Does Thor in one form or another go back a very long way?  Did Odin come along  later?  Since there were no written records,  I just wondered if these were clues of their provenance. Thanks in advance and cheers.

That's an interesting question, because there are swords in their stories. Odin broke Seigmunds sword with Gungnir, also when Loki discovered Gungnir the dwarves also were known for crafting swords and armour. 

But Thor certainly is complicated because Thor can be attributed to like 12 different names. So it's hard to see where he came from and who came first. 

But I think Odin came first, not just in the narrative, but he seems to be a representative of Nature. Always hanging around Geri and Freki and the Ravens I can't remember and spiders and such. 

[Tatetopa]

9 hours ago, danydandan said:

That's an interesting question, because there are swords in their stories. Odin broke Seigmunds sword with Gungnir, also when Loki discovered Gungnir the dwarves also were known for crafting swords and armour. 

But Thor certainly is complicated because Thor can be attributed to like 12 different names. So it's hard to see where he came from and who came first. 

But I think Odin came first, not just in the narrative, but he seems to be a representative of Nature. Always hanging around Geri and Freki and the Ravens I can't remember and spiders and such. 

Thanks.  Yeah, there are swords in their stories, so the tellers (at least of the latest version that came down to us) knew about them.  I think we moderns like to categorize.  To us there is a god of this and the god of that which might be too narrow of an interpretation of our ancestor's stories.  We like to put things in neat boxes, and sometimes they don't belong there.  It is only a romantic notion, but I wonder if these figures have been around since the stone age in one form or another and evolved with their cultures but retained some atavistic qualities.

A little off topic, I am rather taken by the story of Nuadha.  Dian cecht  who made the silver arm to replace the one he lost is rather amazing too.  At first go, he didn't make a new arm out of flesh as a magical physician might be expected to do, but silver, kind of an interesting story.  Anything telling about Nuada's friend Aengaba of Norway who died fighting Sreng?  Close ties and travellers  seem to go far back in the north.  Regards..

[danydandan]

4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Thanks.  Yeah, there are swords in their stories, so the tellers (at least of the latest version that came down to us) knew about them.  I think we moderns like to categorize.  To us there is a god of this and the god of that which might be too narrow of an interpretation of our ancestor's stories.  We like to put things in neat boxes, and sometimes they don't belong there.  It is only a romantic notion, but I wonder if these figures have been around since the stone age in one form or another and evolved with their cultures but retained some atavistic qualities.

A little off topic, I am rather taken by the story of Nuadha.  Dian cecht  who made the silver arm to replace the one he lost is rather amazing too.  At first go, he didn't make a new arm out of flesh as a magical physician might be expected to do, but silver, kind of an interesting story.  Anything telling about Nuada's friend Aengaba of Norway who died fighting Sreng?  Close ties and travellers  seem to go far back in the north.  Regards..

The Use of different or special types of weapons, help build Character. Maybe that's there only purpose? To differentiate them from other similar God's?

Edited December 9, 2018 by danydandan

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, danydandan said:

The Use of different or special types of weapons, help build Character. Maybe that's there only purpose? To differentiate them from other similar God's?

Maybe.  I think Samson's use of the asses jawbone to slay all of those Philistines was symbolic.  He didn't carry one around as his weapon of choice.  If I were god of elites in Viking times, I would have a big old sword named "Cloud-Splitter" or some such.  If I were the champion of common people and common warriors it might offer some encouragement and comfort to kill enemies with something as mundane as a hammer.  I think tales are most revealing not of facts and events, but of the people telling them and what was important to them.  Thanks for your reply.  I will mull on this for a while.  Cheers.

[Kenemet]

On 12/9/2018 at 1:13 AM, Tatetopa said:

I hope you don't mind shifting your expertise to Northern Europe for a moment.

I have a question about Northern European gods, specifically Odin and Thor.   When iron  working skill matured in Northern Europe, the sword became the weapon of choice for elites and every other warrior that could obtain one.  It takes a lot of skill to make a good sword, it takes less iron and lower purity to make a spear head.

Odin has notably a spear, not a sword.  One might think the leader of the Aesir would have a beautiful, named, magical sword.  We know the name of his steed for pity sake.  Thor is associated with a hammer, a mighty one with a name, but no sword either.  My question is: does that imply that the character and stories associated with these gods were begun prior to the blossoming of the Iron Age in Northern Europe?  A hammer or war club is about as basic a weapon as you can get.  Does Thor in one form or another go back a very long way?  Did Odin come along  later?  Since there were no written records,  I just wondered if these were clues of their provenance. Thanks in advance and cheers.

Odin might have a spear if he was originally a deity who used lightning.  The spear's name, by the way, is Gungnir: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gungnir

He seems to predate the Iron Age in Europe

[Wistman]

Cornell study casts doubt on timeline for Iroquois history:  https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2018-12/cu-sut120718.php

Quote

Until now, it's been assumed that the presence of European trade goods, such as metals and glass beads, provide a timeline for the indigenous peoples and settlements in the 15th and 16th centuries. New research suggests this may be a mistake in cases where there was not direct and intensive exchange between the two groups of people.

Radiocarbon dating and tree-ring evidence shows that three major indigenous sites in Ontario, Canada, conventionally dated 1450-1550 - because there were no or very few European goods recovered - are in fact 50-100 years more recent. This dates the sites to the worst period of the Little Ice Age, around 1600.

eta:  a bit more here:  https://phys.org/news/2018-12-upends-timeline-iroquoian-history.html

Edited December 11, 2018 by The Wistman

[Kenemet]

3 hours ago, The Wistman said:

Cornell study casts doubt on timeline for Iroquois history:  https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2018-12/cu-sut120718.php

eta:  a bit more here:  https://phys.org/news/2018-12-upends-timeline-iroquoian-history.html

Uhoh!  Piney's friends are going to be on the warpath!

[jaylemurph]

7 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Uhoh!  Piney's friends are going to be on the warpath!

Maybe... maybe poor word choice?  

—Jaylemurph day 

[kmt_sesh]

2 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Maybe... maybe poor word choice?  

—Jaylemurph day 

I just caught that!

[jaylemurph]

The other day in one of the religion forums here, I (politely) asked someone else not to use the term “butt-hurt”; someone else replied “ ‘people like you’ whip up trouble like this where there is none” 

...they also justified their defense of the term by claiming they had “two gay friends.” 

People, man. People. 

—Jaylemurph 

[BorizBadinov]

18 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

The other day in one of the religion forums here, I (politely) asked someone else not to use the term “butt-hurt”; someone else replied “ ‘people like you’ whip up trouble like this where there is none” 

...they also justified their defense of the term by claiming they had “two gay friends.” 

People, man. People. 

—Jaylemurph 

That is one of the funniest completely idiotic clueless justifications I have ever heard.

I myself have become quite tired of expletive slang like butt hurt. It doesn't offend me so much as annoy me because it just sounds stupid.