Let's talk history

[docyabut2]

9 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Why did more like a  stranded drifter ? 

Or is it   ;  More liked a stranded drifter ? 

Or ,   did you mean Dennis  Moore  ?     He was a stranded drifter  ( and a  '  Highwayman '  )  

 

 

Let  me asked a question, is that a Egyptian boat on the vase?

[kmt_sesh]

11 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Let  me asked a question, is that a Egyptian boat on the vase?

It is very representative of a standard Egyptian riverine boat. They are better evidenced in later periods, such as examples on this page. You see the upturned bow and stern, the paddles thrusting into the water, and the cabin on the deck, including banners or flags billowing from the roof. Such depictions are common going back into prehistory.

[back to earth]

Let  me asked a question, is that a Egyptian boat on the vase?

 

Let's put it up again ;

 

 

It looks like a rough representation of an 'Egyptian boat' to me .

We have a curved up bow and stern , a 'cabin' like Egyptians boats usually do , it looks like a helmsman at the back , the lines could be oars ... and  ... there is a person on their back or side in foetal position . 

 

 

Of course, the vase has a very simple representation on it so I suppose it could represent similar other boats from other places , but its origin should also be considered within a much wider context to do with where and  what conditions it came from and its date  .... to make a bigger picture . 

Okay, thats what I think .

Do you think it is an Egyptian boat on the vase Docy ? 

Edited March 23, 2017 by back to earth

[back to earth]

 cross post  ^      ya beat me ! 

[kmt_sesh]

31 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Why did more like a  stranded drifter ? 

Or is it   ;  More liked a stranded drifter ? 

Or ,   did you mean Dennis  Moore  ?     He was a stranded drifter  ( and a  '  Highwayman '  )  

 

 

Damn drifter, going from village to village, crouched down in his boat and hiding, waiting for the people to come and investigate so he can jump out and scare them. He was the bane of the prehistoric valley!

[ShadowSot]

2 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

I'm adopted so my biological history is a blank. It seems to be a source of frustration for all of my docs. Best of luck to you in beating the family odds.

But now because of you I'm getting interested in this question, and have started to do a bit of searching on the net. Found this interesting abstract. It mentions:

• ...histologic and computed x-ray tomographic investigations of ancient mummies have clearly shown that atherosclerosis has been present in humans for more than 5,000 years, limited data are available on the presence of genetic predisposition for cardiovascular disease in ancient human populations

I haven't read the whole article yet but I think this is it. The perfect sort of thing for us history nerds, right?

Thanks. The surgery was cancelled today because I'm running a fever, so I have to call to reschedule. Unless you want to do it for me? I have an X-Acto knife and length of garden hose. Will that work for a peritoneal implant?

That and a pint will probably do it. Though it is a tricky thing... two pints maybe.

[back to earth]

5 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Damn drifter, going from village to village, crouched down in his boat and hiding, waiting for the people to come and investigate so he can jump out and scare them. He was the bane of the prehistoric valley!

 

Yo crazy  man .....   The drifter Dennis More never went in a boat ... he was  on a horse 

 

 

[MWoo7]

8 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

That and a pint will probably do it. Though it is a tricky thing... two pints maybe.

Now that was funny !

Now where's my ginger ale jug?, here somewhere * sonters off *

-=-=- cont.

UUUPDATE!: somehow seems familiar hahaha Liked the Moor/More bit!

6 minutes ago, back to earth said:

... he was  on a horse 

Edited March 23, 2017 by MWoo7

[kmt_sesh]

7 minutes ago, back to earth said:

 

Let's put it up again ;

 

 

It looks like a rough representation of an 'Egyptian boat' to me .

We have a curved up bow and stern , a 'cabin' like Egyptians boats usually do , it looks like a helmsman at the back , the lines could be oars ... and  ... there is a person on their back or side in foetal position . 

 

 

Of course, the vase has a very simple representation on it so I suppose it could represent similar other boats from other places , but its origin should also be considered within a much wider context to do with where and  what conditions it came from and its date  .... to make a bigger picture . 

Okay, thats what I think .

Do you think it is an Egyptian boat on the vase Docy ? 

See? Great minds and all that. 

Egyptian boat models are a lot of fun. They were the most common type of model placed in burials. And if they're well preserved and include sails, you can even tell which direction on the Nile the craftsmen wanted to represent them traveling. The prevailing wind on the Nile is north to south, while the current of the river itself is south to north. So if the sail is up on the boat model, the boat is represented as traveling north to south (to use the wind). The pretty model in your photo is the opposite: the sail is furled, so the boat is traveling south to north and is using the current (presumably, at least; there doesn't appear to be a sail at all on this one).

[back to earth]

10 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

See? Great minds and all that. 

Egyptian boat models are a lot of fun. They were the most common type of model placed in burials. And if they're well preserved and include sails, you can even tell which direction on the Nile the craftsmen wanted to represent them traveling. The prevailing wind on the Nile is north to south, while the current of the river itself is south to north. So if the sail is up on the boat model, the boat is represented as traveling north to south (to use the wind). The pretty model in your photo is the opposite: the sail is furled, so the boat is traveling south to north and is using the current (presumably, at least; there doesn't appear to be a sail at all on this one).

Cool !   I knew about those handy river dynamics but had not realised  the implications of direction of travel in a model or depiction    !    

 

(maybe I can use that to impress a woman at a bar    ....   like whatisname  did    ?     )   

Edited March 23, 2017 by back to earth

[kmt_sesh]

9 minutes ago, back to earth said:

 

Yo crazy  man .....   The drifter Dennis More never went in a boat ... he was  on a horse 

 

 

Or a semi-truck. I think of Rutger Hauer in The Hitcher, a rather gruesome (and bad) 1980s movie in which he plays a psychotic drifter.

But I like the kid in that funny little clip I found. I mean, what a reaction! I'll bet it was one of those computer scare maze tricks someone played on him. You just know he wet himself or will need counseling henceforth. Or both. 

[kmt_sesh]

3 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Cool !   I knew about those handy river dynamics but had not realised  the implications of direction of travel in a model or depiction    !    

 

(maybe I can use that to impress a woman at a bar    ....   like whatisname  did    ?     )   

LOL By those criteria she must be an older woman who hits on you a lot. That was in the Akhenaten thread.

It's swell to know all of these facts can be used for getting dates. 

[Khaemwaset]

On 3/19/2017 at 10:25 PM, kmt_sesh said:

I would suggest the 2-ply. It will hold up the best to the typical night of wild mummy partying.

Tutankhamun's missing heart.Where did it go? There is no universal agreement on this but two theories are the most popular, as far as I'm aware.

The first theory was presented by a non-specialist named Dr. Benson Harrer. He's a medical doctor who examined Tut's X-rays and CT scans, and although he has no training in Egyptology, he did his homework and refined his work along the way. At first he suggested Tut was killed by a hippo chomping on his chest. The chest wall was so damaged that the ancient embalmers removed it, and the shredded heart with it. This theory was not terribly well thought out, however, because although there is damage to the posterior area of the rib cage, it is certainly not to the degree consistent with death from a hippo. That a hippo could kill someone this way is certainly not in doubt, but the evidence on the human remains does not support it. So later Harrer revised his theory and said it was a horse instead. A rearing horse kicked Tut in the chest and killed him; again, the embalmers had to remove the broken chest wall and heart. This is a better theory and gained more traction in certain circles.

I often recommend Jo Marchant's book The Shadow King because in my opinion it is the most cohesive treatment on all of the science and research (and hokum) that has gone into the study of Tut's mummy. Marchant herself expresses favor in Harrer's theory. I'd mark it as the one and only flaw in her book, but only because I find Harrer's theory to be overly fanciful and not adequately supported. Other than that, however, I can't recommend this book enough. I liked it so much I devised a lecture around it at our museum.

The second theory is what I personally favor, and believe the weight of evidence supports it very well. To understand this theory it is helpful to post the last photo taken of Tutankhamun's body before it was reinterred in the tomb in the late 1920s: see this link. For the moment, just note the array of floral necklaces on the king's chest and the beaded skullcap on his head. Howard Carter and his team opted to leave them in place because the plethora of resins and unguents that had been used in the mummification, had caused the necklaces to be fused against the chest wall. The body was already in numerous pieces from rough handling when Douglass Derry pried it from the innermost coffin, so Carter and his men placed it back together in a tray of sand, lowered it back inside the sarcophagus, and closed the lid. No one saw the king's mummy for another 40-plus years. In 1968 a team went in there to conduct the first X-rays of the king's body, and discovered things to be quite a mess. Here is what they found.

Note that the floral collars are all gone, along with the chest wall. The eyelids are gone, as are the ears. The skullcap is missing. Even the clavicles are missing. Additionally, the arms were now in a different position altogether. (Incidentally, his penis also seems to have fallen off!) Now, the X-ray team did not comment on this because all they were interested in was taking films of the skull, but clearly the mummy was noticeably different from the state in which it had been left by Carter's men back in the '20s. No one can be exactly certain why, but many wondered if this happened during the turbulent years of World War II. People at that time were not terribly concerned with safeguarding ancient tombs, so it would've been relatively simple for raiders to enter KV62 and ravage the mummy to get the skullcap and floral collars. Remember that the collars had been fused to the chest, so the only way they could do this was by sawing away the chest wall.

So on balance Dr. Harrer's theory is not crazy or too far fetched, but I think the second theory of modern tomb raiding explains it a lot more realistically and sensibly.

Now, can we guarantee that the heart was left in place to begin with? No, we can't. We've CT scanned many of our mummies in the Field Museum and have found that some of them have hearts, some do not. Embalmers could get sloppy—and Tut's mummification seems to have gone off less than ideally. Another excellent book I'd recommend is Zahi Hawass and Sahar Saleem's Scanning the Pharaohs. It was one of the last projects Hawass was engaged in prior to his ouster as secretary general, and although I tend to disagree with a lot of Hawass's conclusions in Egyptology, this book is a solid piece of work. It discusses the CT scanning and findings of numerous notable New Kingdom pharaohs, and in the process they discovered that the mummies of Amunhotep III and Merneptah show no evidence of a heart remaining. These two were certainly far greater kings than young Tutankhamun, so it just goes to show how you never know what you might find with mummies.

That sums it up. I know you weren't looking for such a long-winded lecture, so I apologize for that. But yours was an excellent question, and it's something that really interests me personally.

Postscript: To end on a happy note, I should relay that eventually they found Tut's penis (and several other fragments) on the floor of the sarcophagus. All is well.

Thanks for the fulsome reply...it's much appreciated.  Very interesting; were the mummies of Amunhotep III and Merneptah fully intact, otherwise?  Were any amulets left in the wrappings?  Had they been re-wrapped in a later era?

I believe that many of Mariette's excavated artifacts from the Serapaeum have vanished over the years...including the so-called mummy of my namesake, that was found there, but later discredited as such.  Terrible when these things disappear.

Hope you are feeling well and recovering!

 

[Merc14]

Off the Egyptian topic a bit but still in the region, something I found interesting since Taun introduced me to The Great War series.  Archaeologists have found a cache of liquor bottles from a WWI British military canteen or Officer's Club from the last year of WWi in Ramleh, Palestine (now central Israel).  http://www.timesofisrael.com/archaeologists-uncork-100-year-old-liquor-stash-left-by-british-troops/

After battling their way up through Ottoman Palestine 100 years ago, British soldiers garrisoned in Ramle took a break from the fighting and tossed back a few drinks.

Many drinks at that.  

Excavations carried out last week during the construction of a new highway east of Ramle in central Israel turned up the remains of a building used by British soldiers in General Edmund Allenby’s army who were stationed there between November 1917 and September 1918. Outside the ruined building, archaeologists with the IAA found the soldiers’ garbage pit, in which were plates and cutlery, uniform buttons, belt buckles, and hundreds of liquor bottles.

Ron Toueg, an archaeologist with the IAA who headed the salvage operation, told The Times of Israel that the trove included three intact bottles of Gordon’s Dry Gin, a bottle of Dewar’s whisky, beer bottles, wine bottles, and bottles of mineral water, including one from Johannesburg, South Africa.

article continues:  http://www.timesofisrael.com/archaeologists-uncork-100-year-old-liquor-stash-left-by-british-troops/

Edited March 23, 2017 by Merc14

[back to earth]

Well, you never know your luck ! 

 few summers back a friend from melbourne was visiting. We went  down the river in the morning for a swim, sitting on the banks, doing some turtle diving ( we let them go afterwards )  and mate comes up to the surface ;  " Some idiot has chucked a bottle in , its pretty deep, I see if I can get it . "

He comes up with an old, covered in algae bottle ... its got a stopper in it. We take it to the bank and open it and smell ..........       

Scotch !  Sometime back, I suppose. someone put it in the river to cool it and  forgot, or dripped it out a canoe or .... ?  Somehow it survived down there in the turtle hole .... who knows how long ... stable temperature, dark,   ' aged '   .   Sipped some  .... it was VERY good !

We  ended up spending the rest of the day there, as we agreed it was our 'duty'   to   'remove the pollution from the river '   .            

Edited March 23, 2017 by back to earth

[Khaemwaset]

[internetperson]

21 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

LOL By those criteria she must be an older woman who hits on you a lot. That was in the Akhenaten thread.

It's swell to know all of these facts can be used for getting dates. 

You guys are d****.

Will have questions tomorrow. 

[Kenemet]

21 hours ago, back to earth said:

Cool !   I knew about those handy river dynamics but had not realised  the implications of direction of travel in a model or depiction    !    

Headed towards Abydos for the festival, possibly.

[back to earth]

1 hour ago, Khaemwaset said:

 

Sorry , too off topic  , you need to post this in cryptology , in the section about  Sasquatches that talk ......  and  fish .... and like a drink or two

    

[Khaemwaset]

4 minutes ago, back to earth said:

 

Sorry , too off topic  , you need to post this in cryptology , in the section about  Sasquatches that talk ......  and  fish .... and like a drink or two

    

Quite right.  My bad.   ....though, the hairy feller is not talking...

Edited March 24, 2017 by Khaemwaset

[back to earth]

1 hour ago, internetperson said:

You guys are d****.

Will have questions tomorrow. 

about how to get a date  ?  

Are you brave enough ?  ;  

 

Spoiler

 

[MWoo7]

Dewars ?!?!?

 

indeed!

 

that's my favorite! 

Edited March 24, 2017 by MWoo7

[Tatetopa]

On 3/14/2017 at 9:15 PM, cern said:

 

On 3/13/2017 at 7:27 PM, Tatetopa said:

Before the advent of metal, I believe flint and obsidian were traded in Europe and the Middle East.  Do we have any idea how far that network spread, and the timeline of those activities?

carpathian 1 and carpathian 2 obsidian have been mined and traded continuously since the paleolithic. by the mesolithic it went north to central poland and by the neolithic to macedonia. melos obsidian has been found at frankhthi cave i think in 11kbc. it also went to egypt. 

oh.. there is a szeletian site i think at bukk that many feel is the first market stall with obsidian cores and blades all neatly lined up and arranged as if for sale.

this place in armenia is on the way from the lapis lazuli mines

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/04/150413-Paleolithic-obsidian-weapons-arteni-armenia-archaeology/

"Millions of weapons were made at Paleolithic “factory” in the Caucasus."

obsidian was traded in paleolithic japan even.

 

Good one thanks a bunch, lots of info here.

[Tatetopa]

On 3/14/2017 at 10:54 PM, back to earth said:

I put this up before ;  pearl shell trade routes  Indigenous Australia    

Twice is never too much for a good map.  Thanks.

[kmt_sesh]

6 hours ago, Khaemwaset said:

Thanks for the fulsome reply...it's much appreciated.  Very interesting; were the mummies of Amunhotep III and Merneptah fully intact, otherwise?  Were any amulets left in the wrappings?  Had they been re-wrapped in a later era?

I believe that many of Mariette's excavated artifacts from the Serapaeum have vanished over the years...including the so-called mummy of my namesake, that was found there, but later discredited as such.  Terrible when these things disappear.

Merneptah's mummy is in pretty good shape (photo). Amunhotep III was not so fortunate, as you can see here and here. Both had been removed from their tombs in the Third Intermediate Period and ended up in a side chamber in KV35, where they were discovered with other royal dead in 1898. Who knows how many times they may have been unwrapped and rewrapped before they were secreted away in there, but Amunhotep III is in chunks.

Has it been verified or is it rumored that your namesake was discovered in the Serapaeum? I vaguely remember something about that but can't recall the particulars. 

Quote

Hope you are feeling well and recovering!

 

They loaded me up with antibiotics and I'm feeling better, so hopefully I'm on the mend. Thanks for asking. If nothing else, you can wrap me up like the dude in the cartoon. There are a couple of extra spots in our Egyptian exhibit, so all of you could stop by any time and visit with me.