Let's talk history

[Wepwawet]

3 hours ago, atalante said:

Wepwawet,

My Hornung book is titled The Ancient Egyptian Books of the Afterlife; it covers a wide range of netherworld books, but does not specifically translate Amduat. 

 

In regard to the 4th hour of Amduat, Hornung states:

(p.36) "A zigzag route filled with fire and repeatedly blocked by DOORS through the region of this hour.  For the first time, the solar barque needs to be towed for it to make progress, and the barque itself turns into a serpent whose fiery breath pierces a pathway through the otherwise impenetrable gloom. In the very middle of this darkly menacing hour Horus and Sokar [begin to?] look after the solar eye..."

 

But elsewhere in this same book Hornung states:

(p.36)  [In the 2nd hour, the sungod] "concerns himself with assigning land to the blessed dead, who carry ears of grain in their hands or wear them in their hair in the lower register.  These are the peasants of Wernes, and provision for their material needs is the theme here."

 

(p. 34) "In [the 2nd and 3rd] hours, the solar boat is accompanied by other [celestial?] boats that are not depicted again until the later hours."

 

(p.32)  "Unlike the Book of Gates, where the sun barque is depicted being TOWED in each of the twelve hours of the night, the TOWING occurs here in only four of them:  the fourth, fifth, eighth, and twelfth". 

 

 

 

 

Therefore IMO the Amduat storyline displays the difference between a sungod FLOATING though the sky in hours 1, 2 and 3; but being TOWED by chthonic underground serpent-creatures in hours 4, 5 and 8.   As Hornung noted in my quote above, the Book of Gates changes this pattern by making hours 2 and 3 become underworld TOWED hours.   Since the Book of Gates first appears around the time of Horemheb - its changed treatment of hours 2 and 3 is likely to be a reaction to Akhenaten and his religious reform about the daylight sungod Aten.  

 

The fertile Wernes 2nd hour of Amduat corresponds to a netherword region that the Coffin Texts of El Bersheh had depicted as the Field of Hetep, while including a comment that explicitly said Osiris had NOT been told about this region of the netherworld. https://www.academia.edu/231849/The_Ritual_Landscape_of_the_Field_of_Hetep

From the standpoint of Egyptian religious continuity, the Middle Kingdom noble class had gained access to their own space in the afterlife (which only the Egyptian kings could attain in the previous Old Kingdom religious outlook).   The Middle Kingdom's afterlife region for nobles and their peasants corresponds to this Wernes 2nd region in Amduat texts.  Amduat texts call this 2nd region the Great City, because it was was assumed to have a huge number of afterlife residents.

 

 

 

 

In the Fourth Hour the solar eye, given the name "eye of Sokar", is given by a falcon headed god to an ibis headed god. Neither god is named, only labeled by their actions, being "The one who lifts up" and "He with extended arm". This removal , for safety, of the eye is the reason why the Fourth Hour is totally dark. This is why I say that without the sungod there is no light in the Duat, and if the sungod has no eye, then even with his presence there is no light.

In the closing text of the Second Hour we have this, and I'm not taking this section out of context:

"Shine great illuminator! Be radiant uraeus on the head of Ra! Drive away the darkness in the hidden realm in your name He who chases him away with the secret arm. Illuminate the unified darkness that the flesh may live and be renewed by it!"

In the Third Hour there are phrases such as "Lord of the sun disc, shining Ba illuminating the earth!", and more than once the inhabitants of the hour are described as wailing after the sungod has passed by. And in the Eighth "But after he has passed by them, darkness envelops them". I'm sure I could find many other references that show that the Duat is a place of darkness except when the sungod, with his eye, passes by, but It's not something I've ever even bothered looking for before as this darkness is a given. Do you have sources that explicitly state that the Duat is illuminated other than by the sungod, and if so, by what or whom.

In the Book of Gates the First Hour is described as a desert, and it says "The hidden region is in darkness", and when the sungod has passed through the first gate at the end of the hour, the very last words are "Then those who are in their desert wail when they hear this gate being closed"

It is worth quoting this from the First Hour of the short version of the Amduat from the tome by Darnell and Darnell:

This god enters into the earth at the portal of the western horizon. It is 120 iteru of sailing in this portal, before he reaches the Netherworld Dwellers. The Floodwater of Re is the name of the first field of the Netherworld. He grants cultivated land to them, namely, the gods who are in his following. He begins to issue commands and to care for the Netherworld Dwellers at this field.

Here we see that the begining of the First Hour is liminal for 120 iteru. It is also explicit that we are now in the Duat due to the term Netherworld Dwellers, and that the first field is "of the Netherworld". If they were not Netherworld Dwellers and the field was not in the Netherworld, who are they and were are we?

And here we need to consider just what the nature of the Duat is, as descriptions of it are very different in the various Netherworld books, as can be seen in the examples from the first hours of the Amduat as opposed to the first hours of the Book of Gates, where there is no "Wernes" and fields and parcels of land to be given out.

Are we dealing with one place, or many. The idea that the first three hours of the Duat are in Libya, or Chad or further afield, cannot be reconciled with the Egyptians ideas of time and space as expressed in the various books. How can the early parts of the Amduat and Book of Gates be reconciled, if not by understanding that we have entered a supernatural realm where time and space are different to the living world. Due to way the AE put these ideas into a "comic strip" in a tomb, we can easily miss that at times when we think we are looking at a linear progression in time and space, we are looking at multiple events taking place in the same time and space, which is why I suggested that the events of the Sixth Hour, the resurrection of Ra, could take place in the blink of an eye.

I'll leave it there as I don't want to end up writing a book, but will ask why you think it significant if the barque is being towed or self propelled. All the hours show the barque on water, even in the Fourth Hour, and in the tomb of Thutmose IV the water, in all the hours, is coloured blue. Modern line drawings which you will come across of these hours will not show this, but they will show the zigzag pattern of water under the barque. It may be that due to the nature of the Duat some parts are in the sky, but not the sky of the living world, and not the barque. It's an important part of the journey in the Duat that the barque must remain afloat and not get grounded on a sandbank by Apopis, shown in the Seventh Hour, as he will be desperate to kill Ra before he gains full strength after his resurrection. The AE may or may not have engaged in portage in the real world, but not in the Duat.

References used:

The Ancient Egyptian Netherworld Books by John Coleman Darnell and Colleen Manassa Darnell 2018

The Egyptian Amduat by Erik Hornung and Theodor Abt 2007

Knowledge for the Afterlife by Theodor Abt and Erik Hornung 2003

The Egyptian Book of Gates by Erik Hornung and Theodor Abt 2014

Time and Space at Issue in Ancient Egypt edited by Gaelle Chantrain & Jean Winand 2018

 

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Wepwawet

[Hanslune]

https://www.nilemagazine.com.au/2016-january/2016/1/22/what-is-inside-the-great-pyramidsAre Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

Quote

The idea is simple: Perhaps the American and European way of living isn't the pinnacle of human existence. Humanity hasn't been marching — in a linear fashion — toward some promised land. Perhaps, Western society isn't some magical state in which technology free us from the shackles of acquiring basic needs and allows us to maximize leisure and pleasure.

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/10/01/551018759/are-hunter-gatherers-the-happiest-humans-to-inhabit-earth

The only problem is if the weather changes or you attacked by other HG groups. In one study it was found that in HG groups (before current times) 40% of the males died in clashes with other groups.

A good book on that is 'War before civilization'

https://www.amazon.com/War-Before-Civilization-Peaceful-Savage/dp/0195119126#reader_0195119126

 

 

 

[Hanslune]

What is inside the great pyramids?

https://www.nilemagazine.com.au/2016-january/2016/1/22/what-is-inside-the-great-pyramids

[Wepwawet]

3 hours ago, atalante said:

 Since the Book of Gates first appears around the time of Horemheb - its changed treatment of hours 2 and 3 is likely to be a reaction to Akhenaten and his religious reform about the daylight sungod Aten. 

 

 

It's not just that Hour Two and Three have changed, it's the entire work. The Amarna interlude certainly had an impact, though while Akhenaten and his religion of one god was discarded, other aspects of solar theology seemed to have moved ahead during his time, and were not discarded. But that's another matter.

[Hyperionxvii]

1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

What is inside the great pyramids?

https://www.nilemagazine.com.au/2016-january/2016/1/22/what-is-inside-the-great-pyramids

Nice Pyramid. I think I just saw the same model on Zillow. Just calculating now long into the afterlife it takes to pay off the mortgage. 

[Oniomancer]

Pft, that's nothing. You should see the new modern and luxurious design with more roomy interior

Edited January 7, 2021 by Oniomancer

[Hanslune]

4 hours ago, Oniomancer said:

Pft, that's nothing. You should see the new modern and luxurious design with more roomy interior

I remember this it was part of a Japanese thing about a super villain and his secret base...cool to see it again

[atalante]

On 1/7/2021 at 10:49 AM, Wepwawet said:

In the Fourth Hour the solar eye, given the name "eye of Sokar", is given by a falcon headed god to an ibis headed god. Neither god is named, only labeled by their actions, being "The one who lifts up" and "He with extended arm". This removal , for safety, of the eye is the reason why the Fourth Hour is totally dark. This is why I say that without the sungod there is no light in the Duat, and if the sungod has no eye, then even with his presence there is no light.

In the closing text of the Second Hour we have this, and I'm not taking this section out of context:

"Shine great illuminator! Be radiant uraeus on the head of Ra! Drive away the darkness in the hidden realm in your name He who chases him away with the secret arm. Illuminate the unified darkness that the flesh may live and be renewed by it!"

In the Third Hour there are phrases such as "Lord of the sun disc, shining Ba illuminating the earth!", and more than once the inhabitants of the hour are described as wailing after the sungod has passed by. And in the Eighth "But after he has passed by them, darkness envelops them". I'm sure I could find many other references that show that the Duat is a place of darkness except when the sungod, with his eye, passes by, but It's not something I've ever even bothered looking for before as this darkness is a given. Do you have sources that explicitly state that the Duat is illuminated other than by the sungod, and if so, by what or whom.

.......

Wepwawet,

The netherworld books are theological statements.  Since different high priests (and their followers) had different agenda, the netherworld books are also somewhat different.

 

 

Lighting the 2nd and 3rd Amduat hours can be explained by a simple analogy about using a flashlight today in a dark forest at night (i.e. when the sun is not shining).  When the flashlight is shining brightly, a person can use the flashlight to walk around confidently and avoid dangerous mis-steps.  But if this analogous flashlight STOPS shining in that same dark forest, that person becomes disoriented, and lost.  Similarly, residents of the second Amduat hour are said to rejoice when the sungod is shining down on them; but are said to "wail" when the sungod moves on, and illuminates a different part of Amduat. 

 

 

 

Earlier in this thread, we were discussing ancient Egypt measurements of the real world, which would have been available to Eratosthenes and the library of Alexandria.

 

Egypt's Old Kingdom was familiar with a north-south swath of land that would be equivalent to roughly 120 iteru in each direction from Heliopolis.  i.e. The Byblos trading port for acquiring timber, etc, was roughly 120 iteru north of Heliopolis; and the Buhen trading fortress (at Wadi Halfa) was roughly 120 iteru south of Heliopolis.  But it is not clear whether the Old Kingdom actually used the a measuring unit called the iteru.

 

The Middle Kingdom standardized not only the "iteru" as unit of measurement, but also standardized the claim that "Egypt" extended "106 iteru" along the Nile river (thus in a generally north-south direction).  This info about a standardized 106 iteru north-south length for Egypt was obviously available to Eratosthentes.  But as this thread discussed earlier, modern people haggle over how precise Eratosthenes could been, if he used a similar north-south distance when calculating the circumference of his spherical model for the Earth. 

 

The modern real world distance in 3 directions from Heliopolis - north to Byblos; South to Buhen (Wadi Halfa); and west to the horn of Cyrene (when used as the endpoint for Amduat text's 1st hour) - is about 120 iteru.  Therefore the "real world" for Old and Middle Kingdom Egyptians filled roughly 120 iteru distances from Heliopolis.

 

The 2nd and 3rd Amduat hours build upon, and claim to extend, a 120 iteru framework for the size of contemporary ancient Egypt's "real world".  The territories for Amduat's 2nd and 3rd hours are both described as 120 iteru wide (matching the north-south size of contemporary Egypt's "real world") - but are each specified to extend an additional 309 iteru toward the west.

 

The 4th Amduat hour depicts three legs of a journey; it returns the sungod to an underworld of Rosteau and Sokar that belongs directly under the monumental constructions in "real world" Egypt.  Therefore the three legs of the Amduat 4th hour journey are traveling in an eastward direction, and neutralizing the westward distance that was traveled by the sun in Amduat hours 1, 2 and 3 combined. 

 

People can go down a metaphorical rabbit hole if they reject the real world while discussing the Amduat text.

 

 

 

 

   

Edited January 8, 2021 by atalante

[Wepwawet]

15 hours ago, atalante said:

Wepwawet,

The netherworld books are theological statements.  Since different high priests (and their followers) had different agenda, the netherworld books are also somewhat different.

 

 

Lighting the 2nd and 3rd Amduat hours can be explained by a simple analogy about using a flashlight today in a dark forest at night (i.e. when the sun is not shining).  When the flashlight is shining brightly, a person can use the flashlight to walk around confidently and avoid dangerous mis-steps.  But if this analogous flashlight STOPS shining in that same dark forest, that person becomes disoriented, and lost.  Similarly, residents of the second Amduat hour are said to rejoice when the sungod is shining down on them; but are said to "wail" when the sungod moves on, and illuminates a different part of Amduat. 

 

 

 

Earlier in this thread, we were discussing ancient Egypt measurements of the real world, which would have been available to Eratosthenes and the library of Alexandria.

 

Egypt's Old Kingdom was familiar with a north-south swath of land that would be equivalent to roughly 120 iteru in each direction from Heliopolis.  i.e. The Byblos trading port for acquiring timber, etc, was roughly 120 iteru north of Heliopolis; and the Buhen trading fortress (at Wadi Halfa) was roughly 120 iteru south of Heliopolis.  But it is not clear whether the Old Kingdom actually used the a measuring unit called the iteru.

 

The Middle Kingdom standardized not only the "iteru" as unit of measurement, but also standardized the claim that "Egypt" extended "106 iteru" along the Nile river (thus in a generally north-south direction).  This info about a standardized 106 iteru north-south length for Egypt was obviously available to Eratosthentes.  But as this thread discussed earlier, modern people haggle over how precise Eratosthenes could been, if he used a similar north-south distance when calculating the circumference of his spherical model for the Earth. 

 

The modern real world distance in 3 directions from Heliopolis - north to Byblos; South to Buhen (Wadi Halfa); and west to the horn of Cyrene (when used as the endpoint for Amduat text's 1st hour) - is about 120 iteru.  Therefore the "real world" for Old and Middle Kingdom Egyptians filled roughly 120 iteru distances from Heliopolis.

 

The 2nd and 3rd Amduat hours build upon, and claim to extend, a 120 iteru framework for the size of contemporary ancient Egypt's "real world".  The territories for Amduat's 2nd and 3rd hours are both described as 120 iteru wide (matching the north-south size of contemporary Egypt's "real world") - but are each specified to extend an additional 309 iteru toward the west.

 

The 4th Amduat hour depicts three legs of a journey; it returns the sungod to an underworld of Rosteau and Sokar that belongs directly under the monumental constructions in "real world" Egypt.  Therefore the three legs of the Amduat 4th hour journey are traveling in an eastward direction, and neutralizing the westward distance that was traveled by the sun in Amduat hours 1, 2 and 3 combined. 

 

People can go down a metaphorical rabbit hole if they reject the real world while discussing the Amduat text.

 

 

 

 

   

We have no idea who was responsible for any of these texts, and it does not necessarily have to be the case that they were composed by high priests, who do not have "followers", or not until we get to the Third IP and the High Priests of Amun making themselves kings of Thebes. By that time the bulk of these texts were already in existance anyway. The position of HP, at least of the important ones such as at Heliopolis, Memphis, Abydos and Karnak, were either held by a son of a king, and so probably without the depth of learning to be able to compose these texts, Prince Thutmose would have been HP of Ptah by the time he was in his teens, and likewise Prince Khaemwaset who followed him during the reign of Ramesses II. Other HP posts were political appointments, and we see a big clearout after the Amarna interlude. It's likely, IMO, that the texts were primarily the work of lectors, and the input of the sem-priest, HP and king added. Even when we look at who was HPO at the time of Thutmose III, a man named Nebawy, we find that he was essentially a political appointee after having served the king as soldier and advisor. Would he have been so steeped in the arcane mysteries to have composed the Amduat for Thutmose III, not on his own I think. Four of the seven Netherwold books were also composed before the post of HPO became "professionalized" within an extended family, something I had written about in some detail in a diversion in the box 001k thread. That the Osireion contains three of these books does have to point to Abydos as the principal author, and despite differences between the books, are a unified work dealing with different aspects of the Duat and of the resurrection of the king, and by extention everybody else.

In your earlier posts you did not explain how the first three hours of the Duat were illuminated, that's why I asked for an expanation. Your flashlight analogy is just an interpretation of the explanation I gave, that there is only light in the presence of Ra. So do you accept that when Ra is not present, there is no light, even in these seemingly life like early regions of the Duat, and that therefore, as the texts themselves state, these first three hours are in fact in the Duat proper, as the texts clearly state, and of which I have given examples.

This is a bit of a digression: I honestly don't see that this should even be an issue, but what is more important is how time works in the Duat, for though the Amduat and Book of Gates are divided into 12 hours, other books are not. The Amduat states that Ra spends some time in Wernes, though does not suggest how long. At face value it has to be an hour, but it cannot be as the length of night varies over the course of the year, and at the summer solstice in Egypt there are four hours less than at the winter solstice. To the inhabitants of the first hours of the Duat, Ra may seem to be with them for an entire daylight day, but that is by their perception of time. How much time passes when Ra is not present, 23 hours? or what may seem an eternity, do these regions even exist without Ra. Where is Osiris, whose domain the Duat this is. In the Netherworld books he only exists in the presence of Ra, yet from the BOD, we know he sits in judgement on the dead, what must be a 24/7 job, yet as the king does not face judgement, this aspect of Osiris is not mentioned, and no "Hall of Judgement" exists in the Netherworld books. Presumably Osiris takes a break from judging to have a chat with Ra from time to time before they meet in the Sixth Hour. What I am saying here is that no matter what real life place may or may not have inspired the descriptions in the Amduat, their actual existance, to an AE, is ephemeral and essentailly they do not exist without the presence of Ra, the exception, as mentioned in the BOD, being The Hall of Judgement which should have a permanent existance. Going back to the first hours, we have Ra handing out plots of land, primarily to gods. Why would he have to do this every day for gods. There will always be newly dead mortals, but not gods, and they are the same gods as we can see by their names. This is another indicator that these regions have no earthly existance and have to be re-created every time Ra appears. No matter that these regions are measured, for all the dead, and those to come, those regions would need to be infinite. I believe that those measurments are not to be taken literally, but only as an indicator that these first regions are of a good size, one familiar to Egyptians.

Your reading of the Fourth Hour does not coincide with what the texts say. I did not see you write in previous posts that what is descibed in the Netherworld Rosetau corresponds with the real world Rosetau and monuments. I suggested that, and it is only a suggestion. If, as you suggest, that the first three hours are off to the west, in fact to the west of the west as they are beyond the western horizon where the Sun sets, how can it be that the end of the Third Hour, presumably out somewhere in Libya or Chad, then  enters into Rosetau in the environs of Giza, if the Netherworld Rosetau corresponds to the real world. Either Ra is bending time and space, not impossible, or the journey from the moment the Sun has set is from west to east in a supernatural land that defies the normal rules of the universe.

I'm not even sure why you want to correlate parts of the Duat to the real world, other than a potential "joining" at Giza, where Ra is resurrected by Osiris at the waters of Nun. And that can of course go off into the purpose of G1, the Sphinx and Osiris shaft, all predating the BOD let alone the Netherworld books. Far more interesting than trying to put the first regions of the Duat, as described in only the Amduat, in Libya or Chad. Earlier last year on this forum I threw out the left field suggestion that there could be a correlation between the shafts in G1 and the shafts, or shaft, that comes from Ra in the Enigmatic Books of the Netherworld at the point of his "joining" with Osiris. This shaft heads up and out of a solar disc at a similar angle to the G1 shafts, and it shows Ra communicating by means of light. Only a very wild idea, and how could an Egyptian in the late 18th Dynasty know about the G1 shafts anyway, unless there was something contained in papyrus rolls long rotted, but that they had access to, rather like Shabaka and the Memphite creation myth.

Edited January 9, 2021 by Wepwawet

[Wepwawet]

On 1/7/2021 at 3:10 PM, atalante said:

 "Unlike the Book of Gates, where the sun barque is depicted being TOWED in each of the twelve hours of the night, the TOWING occurs here in only four of them:  the fourth, fifth, eighth, and twelfth".

To be fair, in my response to this quote from Hornung I should have qualified it by stating that it was my opinion.

That the barque in the Fourth Hour has been transformed into a snake is indeed a good reason to say that it is being towed over sand, and I do not say categorically that this is not so. What my response did was to point out that water is shown under the barque, even if it is now a snake. While not a snake in the Fifth Hour, we are still in Rosetau, the "Land of Hauling" or towing if you like, yet there are texts that are explicit that there is water.

This is not the introductory text, but is written above the top register. These texts are the words spoken by Ra to the gods in his retinue and to the inhabitants of whichever region of the Duat he is in, different words in each hour of course.

Words spoken by this great god:

"May you stand at your water. May you guard your river banks. May you give the flood to the floating ones in the Nun, that you land them at the shores of the flood. Water belongs to you, it shall not dry up. May your river banks be high and not barren. May your arms bend for Ra, to pass you in peace."

And a concluding text:

They are those who belong to the waters of the drowned in the Duat. What they have to do is let the barque come

Then in the middle register, and describing seven goddesses who tow the barque:

What they have to do is tow this great god, that he rests in this barque which is in the Nun of the Duat

So what we have in the descriptions both in text and image of Rosetau in the Duat is contradictory, and while I can certainly see that there is a very good argument for the barque being towed over sand, there is, IMO, an equally good reason to argue that the barque is on water, not least blue water being shown under the barque, even as a snake, though it is just the prow and stern posts that are in the shape of a snake head. I wellcome an explanation to tell me I am wrong, and I am genuine in that, I don't mind as long as it is well argued and convincing, and if so, I would concede the point about over which surface the barque is being towed, though I would still dispute your suggestion that Ra only enters the Duat in the Fourth Hour.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by Wepwawet

[jaylemurph]

On 1/7/2021 at 10:35 AM, Hanslune said:

What is inside the great pyramids?

https://www.nilemagazine.com.au/2016-january/2016/1/22/what-is-inside-the-great-pyramids

I see you lot still haven’t found the secret Ham Lockers, as insisted upon by The Creators. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Hanslune]

35 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

I see you lot still haven’t found the secret Ham Lockers, as insisted upon by The Creators. 

—Jaylemurph 

Obviously such odious food stuffs would be stored outside, probably in satellite pyramid G1-c, they kept ice in 'b', and 'a' has the lawn furniture and freezer with chunks of hippo meat. G1-d was for the royal cats.

[Hyperionxvii]

On 1/7/2021 at 3:35 PM, Oniomancer said:

Pft, that's nothing. You should see the new modern and luxurious design with more roomy interior

Needs a bigger kitchen, with an island and open floor plan. 

[atalante]

On 1/9/2021 at 5:05 AM, Wepwawet said:

We have no idea who was responsible for any of these texts ..... It's likely, IMO, that the texts were primarily the work of lectors, and the input of the sem-priest, HP and king added.....

In your earlier posts you did not explain how the first three hours of the Duat were illuminated, that's why I asked for an expanation. Your flashlight analogy is just an interpretation of the explanation I gave, that there is only light in the presence of Ra. So do you accept that when Ra is not present, there is no light, even in these seemingly life like early regions of the Duat, and that therefore, as the texts themselves state, these first three hours are in fact in the Duat proper, as the texts clearly state, and of which I have given examples.

........Your reading of the Fourth Hour does not coincide with what the texts say. I did not see you write in previous posts that what is descibed in the Netherworld Rosetau corresponds with the real world Rosetau and monuments. I suggested that, and it is only a suggestion.

 

Wepwawet,

Yes.  I agree that the netherworld is dark when the sungod does not illuminate it.

Hornung himself is the person who stated that Amduat hour 4 is Rosetau and also the land of Sokar, as I will quote below.  

I am not surprised that you find some details in Egyptian history more interesting than I do.

But if you have reviewed Amduat hours 11 and 12, about reaching the Amduat's "World-encircler", then you should recognize why a Greek in the era of Eratosthenes would compare the eastern-end-of-the-Amduat to a place within Greek early cosmology, Okeanos, which was said to flow in a circle at the outside of a circular Earth.

 

 

Regarding:   "The Book of the Hidden Chamber":  

I referenced this "hidden" chamber in a recent post, as a continuity from the Coffin Texts of El Bersha, and their descriptions of the Field of Hetep.  See the region labeled XX in frames 5 and 6 of https://www.academia.edu/231849/The_Ritual_Landscape_of_the_Field_of_Hetep

Frame 5 region XX (in the above link) states "its length and its breadth are not told to Osiris".  But frame 6 region XX also says "it is the sea of the gods".

 

The failure to tell-Osiris-about-it in Coffin Texts is presumably why this Hidden Chamber previously was considered "hidden", before the Amduat text was composed.    Hours 2 and 3 of the "Book of the Hidden Chamber" are where dimensions of "its length and its breadth" are indeed revealed:  309 iteru long, and 120 iteru wide.  And of course, large amounts of water are said to be in Amduat hours 2 and 3, since these two hours represent what the El-Bersha Coffin Texts had called "the sea of the gods".

 

Osiris appears in hours 2 and 3 only when the solar barque is leaving Amduat hour 3; at that time Re is said to turn and face Re directly. (Hornung p36)

 

It is plausible that an initial "Hidden Chamber" portion (covering hours 2 and 3 of Amduat text) was composed separately from the text for hours 4-12 of Amduat. 

 

 

 

regarding Rosetau and the West, my Hornung (1999) book states:

 

(page 36) "This well watered, abundant landscape ends at the fourth hour.  Here lies the desert of ROSETAU, the 'Land of Sokar, who is on his sand,' a desolate, sandy realm teeming with snakes whose uncanny movement is emphasized by the legs and wings on their bodies,  A ZIGZAG ROUTE filled with fire and repeatedly blocked by doors leads through the region of this hour."

 

(page 37) "The region represented by this [5th] hour embodies the West.  And it includes all the essential elements of the realm of the dead.... The four towmen of the 4th hour no longer suffice; here, along with the solar beetle reaching down from above, seven males and seven females pull the towrope.

 

 

 

Amduat hours 5, 6, and 7 deal with traditional Egyptian concepts from eras earlier than the text of Amduat.  In effect, we can presume the sungod Re is under the sandy Sahara desert in hours 5, 6, and 7.  Towing Re was not used in hours 6 and 7, so presumably no long distance travel is involved in hours 6 and 7.

 

In the 8th hour, the solar barque is towed by 8 males.  This 8th hour is the last Amduat hour where towing is needed [Hornung p.32].  Although I have not found a geographical statement by Hornung for naming where the 8th hour goes - travel is obviously continuing eastward, presumably under Egypt's Eastern Desert, toward what modern people call the Red Sea.

 

Eventually in hours 9-12 Re reaches the "World-encircler" at the EASTERN end of the sky, and is lifted into the sky.

[Wepwawet]

7 hours ago, atalante said:

Wepwawet,

Yes.  I agree that the netherworld is dark when the sungod does not illuminate it.

Hornung himself is the person who stated that Amduat hour 4 is Rosetau and also the land of Sokar, as I will quote below.  

I am not surprised that you find some details in Egyptian history more interesting than I do.

But if you have reviewed Amduat hours 11 and 12, about reaching the Amduat's "World-encircler", then you should recognize why a Greek in the era of Eratosthenes would compare the eastern-end-of-the-Amduat to a place within Greek early cosmology, Okeanos, which was said to flow in a circle at the outside of a circular Earth.

 

 

Regarding:   "The Book of the Hidden Chamber":  

I referenced this "hidden" chamber in a recent post, as a continuity from the Coffin Texts of El Bersha, and their descriptions of the Field of Hetep.  See the region labeled XX in frames 5 and 6 of https://www.academia.edu/231849/The_Ritual_Landscape_of_the_Field_of_Hetep

Frame 5 region XX (in the above link) states "its length and its breadth are not told to Osiris".  But frame 6 region XX also says "it is the sea of the gods".

 

The failure to tell-Osiris-about-it in Coffin Texts is presumably why this Hidden Chamber previously was considered "hidden", before the Amduat text was composed.    Hours 2 and 3 of the "Book of the Hidden Chamber" are where dimensions of "its length and its breadth" are indeed revealed:  309 iteru long, and 120 iteru wide.  And of course, large amounts of water are said to be in Amduat hours 2 and 3, since these two hours represent what the El-Bersha Coffin Texts had called "the sea of the gods".

 

Osiris appears in hours 2 and 3 only when the solar barque is leaving Amduat hour 3; at that time Re is said to turn and face Re directly. (Hornung p36)

 

It is plausible that an initial "Hidden Chamber" portion (covering hours 2 and 3 of Amduat text) was composed separately from the text for hours 4-12 of Amduat. 

 

 

 

regarding Rosetau and the West, my Hornung (1999) book states:

 

(page 36) "This well watered, abundant landscape ends at the fourth hour.  Here lies the desert of ROSETAU, the 'Land of Sokar, who is on his sand,' a desolate, sandy realm teeming with snakes whose uncanny movement is emphasized by the legs and wings on their bodies,  A ZIGZAG ROUTE filled with fire and repeatedly blocked by doors leads through the region of this hour."

 

(page 37) "The region represented by this [5th] hour embodies the West.  And it includes all the essential elements of the realm of the dead.... The four towmen of the 4th hour no longer suffice; here, along with the solar beetle reaching down from above, seven males and seven females pull the towrope.

 

 

 

Amduat hours 5, 6, and 7 deal with traditional Egyptian concepts from eras earlier than the text of Amduat.  In effect, we can presume the sungod Re is under the sandy Sahara desert in hours 5, 6, and 7.  Towing Re was not used in hours 6 and 7, so presumably no long distance travel is involved in hours 6 and 7.

 

In the 8th hour, the solar barque is towed by 8 males.  This 8th hour is the last Amduat hour where towing is needed [Hornung p.32].  Although I have not found a geographical statement by Hornung for naming where the 8th hour goes - travel is obviously continuing eastward, presumably under Egypt's Eastern Desert, toward what modern people call the Red Sea.

 

Eventually in hours 9-12 Re reaches the "World-encircler" at the EASTERN end of the sky, and is lifted into the sky.

That book by Hornung is of value of course, but it is not the full story. I've had another look at the section on the Amduat, and while he does state that it's proper name is, as you have pointed out, "The Book of the Hidden Chamber", he does not state where or what this chamber is. He states that the title "Amduat" refers to all the Netherworld books in general, and each have their own specific title, so we have the Book of Gates dealing with the Duat as being punctuated by gates, and in the Book of Caverns it is a place of interconnected caverns. The other books deal with specific activities, such as the Books of the Solar-Osirian Unity, aka The Enigmatic Books of the Netherworld, dealing with the events of the Sixth Hour. So in the Amduat, the Hidden Chamber is not a specific place hidden within the Duat, it is the Duat, and each hour is refered to as Hidden and is given it's location within the burial chamber of the tomb, The Hidden Chamber. For reference, hours 1 to 4 are on the west wall, hours 5 and 6 on the south, 7 and 8 on the north and 9 to 12 on the east wall. This, I will point out, is as the book is layed out in the tomb of Thutmose III, the most complete version, but as they liked to "mix n match", variations appear, mostly with only selected hours being used, either for reasons of space, as in KV62, or what the king thought was important.

As for the presence of Osiris in the first three hours. Well, he is present from start to end of the Amduat. If you hold in your mind the image of Nut stretching over the world from horizon to horizon, then imagine a mirror image being Osiris stretching from the start to the end of the Duat. While not shown in the Amduat, this is shown in the Book of Gates at the end of the Twelth Hour, with the description "It is Osiris, as he encircles the Netherworld". Osiris is depicted all through the Amduat, sometimes labelled with one of his epithets such as Foremost of the West, sometimes in more obscure terms such as Decree of Osiris, and just as plain old Osiris, and those are just from the First Hour.

The full text about Osiris you reference from page 36 of Hornung's book is:

"The presence of Osiris manifests itself a number of times in the lower register of the third hour, and in the text that concludes the hour, Re is even said to turn and face him directly"

Osiris is in fact shown 8 times in the lower register,  each time directly labelled as Osiris, folloed by an epithet. He is alluded to in the other registers and in the introduction, where we have these phrases:

Rowing on the Waters of Osiris

Then this great god (Ra) gives orders to the akhs who are in the following of Osiris at this region

The great god (Ra) cares for the gods in the following of Osiris

Know the mysterious Bas. He who knows their names will approach to the place where Osiris is.

In the Second Hour, Osiris is named 9 times, often in the context of his being present in that region.

Where you quote Hornung on the nature of the Fourth Hour, he does not give any reason to suggest that the winding path is a downward journey into the Netherworld proper, which is what you stated in earlier posts. The entire Duat can of course be seen as descending down to the Sixth Hour, and then ascending to the Twelth, but this is not directly stated, and we are in the realms of allegory. As I mention before, whether there is actually any water for the barque to be towed over in the Fourth and Fifth Hours in the Land of Sokar is debatable, and I have admitted that the texts, to an extent, are a very good argument to show that there is no water, though do not explicitly state this. Though contra to that, we have water shown under the barque in both hours, and the section of path in the Fourth Hour lower register is named as "Floodwaters of the corpses".  Some authors on this write not about sand or decent navigatable water, but shallows.

 

[Wepwawet]

Ran out of edit time, so continuing:

In the end result, it actually doesn't matter whether the barque is being towed over sand or water, even if barely a trickle, as the thrust of your argument is that the Duat does not start until the Fourth Hour, though it can be seen that the Duat is all twelve hours, or regions, or divisions depending on book.

Correlating these regions of the Duat to real world locations is another matter. That they wanted to make part of the Duat a pleasant place where they could be as they were when in the living world, is an obvious thing to do, and other cultures do the same, the Greeks having an underworld something like the Christian Purgatory, and Elysium for those worthy of a happy afterlife. After the Third Hour, the Duat could be seen as a sort of Purgatory for those inhabitants who were not the condemned, with both inhabiting, to an extent, the same space, but having very different experiences of it. For instance in the Fifth Hour we have at the bottom of the third register lakes of fire, but only for the condemned, for other dead this was a lake of water, and I'll note that it is still in the "desert" Land of Sokar. Have we in fact gone down to the water table under Giza, a potential Nun, if a correlation with the real world is looked for. That's some way off the Sahara, which does not fit at all in a journey from the eastern to western horizon, even if the journey is in a place where time and space do not follow normal rules.

The Egyptians believed that there was an entrance to the Duat at Abydos, and the procession ended up at a place at the cliffs where they thought this entrance was. Clearly from the perspective of an inhabitant of the Nile Valley this is not the actual western horizon where the Sun sets, so into what region of the Duat do we enter at Abydos? The Egyptians do not seem to say. Could it be that entering here you are magically transported to the start of the First Hour, or, as it is more or les central to Egypt on a west to east axis, and so potentially on the axis in which the Sixth Hour exists, is it an entrance directly to the central point of the entire Duat, or to the Halls of Judgement that are missing in their location in the various books. The point of mentioning this entrance to the Duat is that it is far away from Libya or Chad etc, and, IMO, points to the locations described in the Duat as not being real world locations, only a "simulation" of the type of world that the dead inhabited when alive.

[Wepwawet]

On 1/7/2021 at 3:10 PM, atalante said:

 

 

 

The fertile Wernes 2nd hour of Amduat corresponds to a netherword region that the Coffin Texts of El Bersheh had depicted as the Field of Hetep, while including a comment that explicitly said Osiris had NOT been told about this region of the netherworld. https://www.academia.edu/231849/The_Ritual_Landscape_of_the_Field_of_Hetep

From the standpoint of Egyptian religious continuity, the Middle Kingdom noble class had gained access to their own space in the afterlife (which only the Egyptian kings could attain in the previous Old Kingdom religious outlook).   The Middle Kingdom's afterlife region for nobles and their peasants corresponds to this Wernes 2nd region in Amduat texts.  Amduat texts call this 2nd region the Great City, because it was was assumed to have a huge number of afterlife residents.

 

 

 

 

Forgot to address this, but will now.

This region is described as a "locale" or "place". I am of the opinion that it should be seen as an afterlife nome. The AE lived for the most part in small villages and towns in the 42 nomes, with cities being rare. Their afterlife was primarily agricultural, even for the elites as they show in their tombs, so a region, or hour, at this point in the Duat should be agricultural, and that is now it is described, so the entire region, or hour, will to them be like a nome, not a teeming city as that was not how most of them lived, or wanted to live in the afterlife.

[Wepwawet]

9 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

 Halls of Judgement that are missing in their location in the various books.

Too focussed on the Amduat when I've got two versions of the Book of Gates sitting on my book shelves. The Hall of Judgement is shown at the Fifth Gate in the Book of Gates, and is a well known scene so I don't know why I forgot it.

[Hanslune]

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/cave-art-indonesia-oldest-figurative-art-animal-image-scn-trnd/index.html

 

Quote

A warty pig painted on a cave wall 45,500 years ago is the world's oldest depiction of an animal

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/11/world/oldest-rock-art-humans-scn/index.html

Edited January 13, 2021 by Hanslune

[Hanslune]

One will note that its a pig and NOT a dog. Of course in higher theology the pig is considered the vanguard or scout of the feline goddess. The horrible flesh eating of these friendly creatures by evil canines must be condemned.

Edited January 14, 2021 by Hanslune

[Hanslune]

Saqqara 3d

Quote

The Saqqara cemetery, located about 15 kilometers south of the Giza pyramids, is one of Egypt’s most spectacular tourist sites. Modern visitors can explore the catacombs of the Serapeum, the ritual burial place of the Apis bull, wander through beautifully carved and painted tomb chapels more than 4000 years old, and stand before Egypt’s first monumental stone pyramid—the one that started it all—the step pyramid of the king Netjerykhet (later called Djoser). But what did it look like in antiquity?

http://www.asor.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Sullivan-January-2021-ANEToday.pdf

http://www.asor.org/anetoday/2021/01/saqqara-3d

[jaylemurph]

12 hours ago, Hanslune said:

One will note that its a pig and NOT a dog. Of course in higher theology the pig is considered the vanguard or scout of the feline goddess. The horrible flesh eating of these friendly creatures by evil canines must be condemned.

Pigs consort with cats, naturally: manum manus lavat. Well, manum lingua lavat for the Spitters of 10,000 Foulnesses and Meannesses.

They, however, were so disgusted by the failures of the Atlanteans and Egyptians that they did a sort of reverse damnatio memoriae and removed all references to themselves.

Except, of course, to the ones they didn’t. It was complicated. It’s why they needed a pảt-time, short-term interim Speaker of Truths and Smiter of Heresies. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Hanslune]

9 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Pigs consort with cats, naturally: manum manus lavat. Well, manum lingua lavat for the Spitters of 10,000 Foulnesses and Meannesses.

They, however, were so disgusted by the failures of the Atlanteans and Egyptians that they did a sort of reverse damnatio memoriae and removed all references to themselves.

Except, of course, to the ones they didn’t. It was complicated. It’s why they needed a pảt-time, short-term interim Speaker of Truths and Smiter of Heresies. 

—Jaylemurph 

Credo quia absurdum est.

Antiquis temporibus, nati tibi similes in rupibus vntosissimis exponebantur ad necem. Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!  

[Hanslune]

A review of the woo 'heights' in 2020

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/the-year-in-review-2020-in-ancient-mysteries-modern-conspiracies-and-aliens

[Hanslune]

https://www.livescience.com/microscopy-art-from-artifacts.html

Hidden secrets revealed in microscopic images of ancient artifacts