Let's talk history

[Nobu]

On 3/13/2017 at 9:46 PM, cern said:

henges in central and eastern europe are quite a bit older than beaker. the one at szemely is pretty to look at.

as a general rule the bigger a henge is the older it is oddly. vinga romania hosts the largest found so far but serbia has the oldest,

oddly the burial remains from this culture display the earliest ydna j2 found yet

so yes there are big things that are much older

 

peace

Thanks for this. Now googling and learning

[Hanslune]

Naucratis the Greek trading post and colony in Egypt.

 

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Archaeological evidence suggests that the history of the ancient Greeks in Egypt dates back at least to Mycenaean times (1600–1100 BC) and more likely even further back into the proto-Greek Minoan age. This history is strictly one of commerce as no permanent Greek settlements have been found of these cultures to date

 

Naukratis was the site of an Egyptian town before the Greeks arrived, later becoming established as a military settlement occupied by mercenaries. Naukratis was located on the Canopic branch of the Nile in the western Delta some 16 km from Sais. Sais as you may remember was where Plato placed the Egyptian Priest who told Solon about Atlantis. Sias was the closest Egyptian habitation to the Greek colony/trading post.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Naucratis

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2016/may/15/drowned-worlds-egypts-sunken-cities#img-7

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amasis_II

Was the last Egyptian Pharaoh before the Persian conquered Egypt and one supported by Greek mercenaries

https://www.britannica.com/place/Naukratis

Edited April 19, 2021 by Hanslune

[Piney]

@jaylemurph a piece on the Scythian goddess Argimpasa but you will probably be interested in the whole journal which is a study of art and shamanism. 

https://www.academia.edu/34823985/Argimpasa_Scythian_goddess_patroness_of_shamans_a_comparison_of_historical_archaeological_linguistic_and_ethnographic_data?email_work_card=view-paper

Komans are Cumans in the English world. 

[jaylemurph]

I’ll check it out!

—Jaylemurph

[ShadowSot]

 Hopefully some of you actual researchers can lend me a hand here. A Facebook comment mentioned that a paper by Dai mortiz  kinzel and Laura Dietrich established houses had been excavated at Gobekli Tepe. Checking the site blog I'm not seeing anything recent about it, and the most recent post about the enclosures indicates the differences between contemporary settlements and domestic living from what we see at Gobekli 

[Harte]

Probably a misinterpretation/misunderstanding (purposeful or otherwise) of (maybe) this section of a paper by Deitrich et al.:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0215214\

Harte

[ShadowSot]

2 hours ago, Harte said:

Probably a misinterpretation/misunderstanding (purposeful or otherwise) of (maybe) this section of a paper by Deitrich et al.:
 

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0215214\

Harte

Cheers. That's pretty much what I figured. But I wanted to find the study to make sure. 

[ShadowSot]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bada_Valley

 Site with some interesting monoliths. Unfortunately, the wiki is pretty bare and it's sources include Ancient Origins. 

 Doing a little digging, academic sources out them between the 7th 14th centuries AD. 

[Thanos5150]

14 hours ago, ShadowSot said:

Cheers. That's pretty much what I figured. But I wanted to find the study to make sure. 

Banning interpreted the structures at GT as dwellings [2011] : So Fair a House: Göbekli Tepe and the Identification of Temples in the Pre-Pottery Neolithic of the Near East

Dietrich, Notroff disagree [2015]: 

A sanctuary, or so fair a house? In defense of an archaeology of cult at Pre-Pottery Neolithic Göbekli Tepe

From the new discoveries, the paper cited [2019] concludes:

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Much prior work has focused on Göbekli Tepe´s special character as a cultic center. A new and detailed engagement with those aspects of the site so far not in the center of attention helps to fill in gaps and modify this interpretation. We still believe that the monumental round buildings served ritual purposes and were not just elaborately decorated residential spaces [122], but we have to move towards a more integrative view of domestic and ritual activities at the site [123] using newly available scientific methods and integrating new insights from recent work in the region.

[122] is Banning. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by Thanos5150

[Hanslune]

19 hours ago, Harte said:

Probably a misinterpretation/misunderstanding (purposeful or otherwise) of (maybe) this section of a paper by Deitrich et al.:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0215214\

Harte

One wonders if the site was used periodically and left unattended for periods of time or if some folks (kinda like 'monks', 'shaman', caretakers or 'priests') might have taken to living there permanently. Given the pace of excavation the entire site will not be completely excavated (it will probably be like Pompeii - large areas not being touched) for a century or more.

[ShadowSot]

12 hours ago, Hanslune said:

One wonders if the site was used periodically and left unattended for periods of time or if some folks (kinda like 'monks', 'shaman', caretakers or 'priests') might have taken to living there permanently. Given the pace of excavation the entire site will not be completely excavated (it will probably be like Pompeii - large areas not being touched) for a century or more.

The gist I've gotten from other articles and papers has been there's some evidence of a small group living there more or less permanently, like sort of long house. And then regular gatherings for some sort of celebratory feasting. 

 

[docyabut2]

Been studying  in Let's talk history in Atlantis was the first in the history of the civilizations, and it was not and Göbekli Tepe was the not , so its in finding it.:) it could be under water.

https://www.livescience.com/10340-lost-civilization-existed-beneath-persian-gulf.html

Edited April 24, 2021 by docyabut2

[docyabut2]

Lost Civilization May Have Existed Beneath the Persian Gulf

https://www.livescience.com/10340-lost-civilization-existed-beneath-persian-gulf.html

[Hanslune]

 

The White Pyramid of Amenemhet II, A Layman's Guide

https://www.academia.edu/40430723/The_White_Pyramid_of_Amenemhet_II_A_Laymans_Guide?email_work_card=view-paper

 

 

 

 

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In the series of guides that I have done so far, not one could be said to have been satisfactorily explored. Too often our primary knowledge comes from old excavation reports; when what is required is more modern scrutiny. Too much certainty has been assigned to structures which I feel is not justifiable on the scant data that we hold on them. Much work remains to be done on the subject of Egyptian architecture; maybe less needs to be spent on reading hieroglyphs and more  spent  on  reading  the  stones.

Yep, well said

[Hanslune]

 

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The Social Life of Tombs in West Sumba, Indonesia

https://www.academia.edu/1846236/2_The_Social_Life_of_Tombs_in_West_Sumba_Indonesia?email_work_card=view-paper

moving a large stone capstone for a tomb - a community effort

[Hanslune]

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The oldest hand-knotted oriental rug known was excavated from the Altai Mountains in Siberia in 1948. It was discovered in the grave of the prince of Altai near Pazyryk, 5400 feet above sea level, and clearly shows how well hand-knotted rugs were produced thousands of years ago. Radiocarbon testing revealed that the Pazyryk carpet was woven in the 5th century B.C., thus approximately 2500 years old. The advanced weaving techniques and the sophisticated design and construction, used in this rug, suggest the art of carpet weaving to go back much further than the 5th century B.C.. to be at least 4000 years old. Today the rug is in the Hermitage Museum in Leningrad, Russia.

 

https://www.mattcamron.com/blog/the-worlds-oldest-rug-the-pazyryk-rug

 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

A question for the enlightened folks hereabouts - Odin hung from Idrassil for 9 days, suffering for knowledge/wisdom. Did he know beforehand that being hung from the neck, off the world tree with a spear in his guts wouldn’t kill him?

[Hanslune]

On 5/2/2021 at 2:02 PM, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

A question for the enlightened folks hereabouts - Odin hung from Idrassil for 9 days, suffering for knowledge/wisdom. Did he know beforehand that being hung from the neck, off the world tree with a spear in his guts wouldn’t kill him?

While Odin was an Aesir God and therefore immortal (well until the end of the world) YET,  however in some circumstances they were, however, definitely at risk from mortal injury. Odin's son was killed Baldr.  So in this case it would kinda depend on what the story was given it was fictional.

[Hanslune]

The genomic history of the Aegean palatial civilizations

Dang left off the link: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867421003706

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The Cycladic, the Minoan, and the Helladic (Mycenaean) cultures define the Bronze Age (BA) of Greece. Urbanism, complex social structures, craft and agricultural specialization, and the earliest forms of writing characterize this iconic period. We sequenced six Early to Middle BA whole genomes, along with 11 mitochondrial genomes, sampled from the three BA cultures of the Aegean Sea. The Early BA (EBA) genomes are homogeneous and derive most of their ancestry from Neolithic Aegeans, contrary to earlier hypotheses that the Neolithic-EBA cultural transition was due to massive population turnover. EBA Aegeans were shaped by relatively small-scale migration from East of the Aegean, as evidenced by the Caucasus-related ancestry also detected in Anatolians. In contrast, Middle BA (MBA) individuals of northern Greece differ from EBA populations in showing ∼50% Pontic-Caspian Steppe-related ancestry, dated at ca. 2,600-2,000 BCE. Such gene flow events during the MBA contributed toward shaping present-day Greek genomes.

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During the EBA, the Aegean saw key innovations in trade, craft specialization, social structure, and urbanization. These changes—that mark the end of the Neolithic Period—left indelible marks on Europe and signaled the start of the urban revolution. At the beginning of this cultural transformation, the Aegean world was mostly split between three iconic palatial civilizations, the Helladic, the Cycladic, and the Minoan, each distinguishable by their artwork, pottery style, burial customs, and architecture (Cline, 2012;Shelmerdine, 2008).To better understand the origin of the people behind this transformation, we sequenced four EBA individuals covering all three Aegean BA cultures (Helladic, Cycladic, and Minoan), two MBA individuals from northern Greece, as well as 11 mtDNA genomes from EBA Aegeans. The increased number of variants covered by the whole genomes from this study compared to previous SNP capture data from later periods in the BA Aegean (Figure S2A), as well as the inherent random variant selection characterizing whole genomes (Figure S2B), allowed us to perform demographic inference and statistically contrast population histories. Moreover, the whole genomes generated here can be easily combined with any genomic data (whole genomes, capture data—1240K or otherwise) with a limited loss of variants in future studies of human population history. Note that future work will be required to determine how representative the analyzed genomes of the Aegeans are of the BA Cycladic, Minoan, and Helladic cultures as a whole.

 

In summary, these genomes from the Cycladic, Minoan, and Helladic (Mycenaean) BA civilizations suggest that these culturally different populations were genetically homogeneous across the Aegean and western Anatolia at the beginning of the BA. The EBA genomes drew their ancestry mainly from local Aegean farmers and from populations related to the CHG. These findings are consistent with long-standing archaeological theories regarding the Neolithic-Bronze Age transformation, namely the immigration of new peoples from Anatolia and the Caucasus (

Blegen and Haley, 1928; Caskey, 1971 Wace, 1957). However, because the contribution of the local Neolithic populations was significant (Dickinson, 2016 Renfrew, 1972:Tsountas and Manatt, 1897

), both local and incoming elements appear to have contributed to the EBA innovations.

 

In contrast, the MBA Aegean population was considerably more structured. One likely reason for such structure is additional Pontic-Caspian Steppe-related gene flow into the Aegean, for which evidence was seen in the newly sequenced MBA Logkas genomes. Present-day Greeks—who also carry Steppe-related ancestry—share ∼90% of their ancestry with MBA northern Aegeans, suggesting continuity between the two time periods. In contrast, LBA Aegeans (Mycenaeans) may carry either diluted Steppe- or Armenian-related ancestry (Lazaridis et al., 2017). This relative discontinuity could be explained by the general decline of the Mycenaean civilization as previously proposed in the archaeological literature (Middleton, 2019). Finally, the inferred migration waves all predate the appearance of Linear B script (1,450 BCE) (Chadwick, 2014). As a result, the genomic data could support both dominant linguistic theories explaining the emergence of Proto-Greek and the evolution of Indo-European languages (Gray et al., 2011). Namely, that these languages either originated in Anatolia (Renfrew, 1972,Renfrew, 1989,Renfrew, 2000) (correlating with the Anatolian and Caucasus-like genetic ancestries) or they originated in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe region (

Anthony, 2010) (correlating with the Steppe-like ancestry). Future Mesolithic to BA genomes from Armenia and the Caucasus regions in general could help to further pinpoint the origins and the mode of gene flow into the Aegean and to better integrate the genomic data with the existing archaeological and linguistic evidence.

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Hanslune

[Piney]

"Effigy Mounds National Monument Cultural Affiliation Report (chapters 4, 6, 8, 9)" by William Green

https://www.academia.edu/4430231/Effigy_Mounds_National_Monument_Cultural_Affiliation_Report_chapters_4_6_8_9_?email_work_card=view-paper

I think it was a merry mixture of Atlanteans and a lost tribe of Space Jews who crash landed in the Yucatan. 

[Hanslune]

https://blog.britishmuseum.org/violence-and-climate-change-in-prehistoric-egypt-and-sudan/

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Violence and climate change in prehistoric Egypt and Sudan

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Excavating here in 1965–66, as part of the UNESCO-funded campaign to salvage sites destined to be flooded by the construction of the Aswan High Dam, Dr Wendorf found a cemetery (site 117) containing at least 61 individuals dating back to about 13,000 years ago. This discovery was of great significance for two reasons. First, as a designated graveyard, evidently used over several generations, it is one of the earliest formal cemeteries in the world. Prior to this discovery, only isolated graves, or clusters of up to three bodies had been known within the Nile Valley. But perhaps even more significant, of the 61 men, women and children buried at Jebel Sahaba, at least 45% of them died of inflicted wounds, making this the earliest evidence for inter-communal violence in the archaeological record. Chips and flakes of chert, the remnants of arrows or other weapons, were found mixed with and in some cases still embedded in the bones of 26 individuals, while cut marks were found on the bones of others.

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[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Another Odin question - Odin sacrificed an eye for a sip from the well of Mimir. Did anyone else every drink from the same well?

[Piney]

2 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Another Odin question - Odin sacrificed an eye for a sip from the well of Mimir. Did anyone else every drink from the same well?

Harte did! 

.......Hans just peed in it. 

[Windowpane]

5 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Another Odin question - Odin sacrificed an eye for a sip from the well of Mimir. Did anyone else every drink from the same well?

Mimir himself, apparently.

It seems that the word "Mimir" might be related to the word for "memory".

[Hanslune]

6 hours ago, Piney said:

Harte did! 

.......Hans just peed in it. 

It is a Danish right to do so. Given I'm half Danish that means I'm half arsed and so most welcome to do so. Give me the right to pee well or give me death.