Let's talk history

[jethrofloyd]

The history in a nutshell. Delphi, Greece.

 

[ShadowSot]

This popped up in my aggregator and full disclosure - it seems a bit muddled. But I'm also also running in two or four hours a sleep late so might just be me. 

https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/migration-from-siberia-behind-formation-of-gobeklitepe-expert-174889

[jmccr8]

48 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

This popped up in my aggregator and full disclosure - it seems a bit muddled. But I'm also also running in two or four hours a sleep late so might just be me. 

https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/migration-from-siberia-behind-formation-of-gobeklitepe-expert-174889

Hi Shadow

I have always thought watercrafts and transport by water has been a consistent long term means of transport for dispersion and trade that has been in use for over 100kyears at least.

[ShadowSot]

30 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Shadow

I have always thought watercrafts and transport by water has been a consistent long term means of transport for dispersion and trade that has been in use for over 100kyears at least.

Dude I'm seriously tired and it took me a good few minutes of reading the article again and trying to figure out how watercraft came into it. 

 Im still not sure, but there's some reasons to accept that boating predates modern humans though. 

[jmccr8]

31 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

Dude I'm seriously tired and it took me a good few minutes of reading the article again and trying to figure out how watercraft came into it. 

 Im still not sure, but there's some reasons to accept that boating predates modern humans though. 

Hi Shadow

Sorry for the confusion guess I didn’t make it clear that it was just an opinion on mobility and how something could travel 7000 miles.

Edited June 29, 2022 by jmccr8

[Hanslune]

https://www.academia.edu/48950476/The_Pyramid_of_Khafre_A_laymans_guide

Another of Hamilton's (Waggys) guides.

It had an interesting piece of information:

Quote

A sizeable mantle of limestone casing remains at the summit of the pyramid, and at places modern piers have been built to support the casing. Petrie would describe the casing;

“The upper part of the Pyramid was cased with Mokattam limestone, of a rather different quality to that of the Great Pyramid; it is grayer, harder, more splintery, and of not such a regular and certain fracture.
pages of the guide 22-23

So, Turah limestone wasn't used? I wonder if the reason for leaving the cladding in place was because it was poorer class limestone instead of Turah?

 

[Piney]

On 6/29/2022 at 2:12 PM, ShadowSot said:

 Im still not sure, but there's some reasons to accept that boating predates modern humans though. 

Harte and I both think that. 

[jethrofloyd]

Campers at Woodstock 1969

(A history is not only Egypt and Atlantis )

[Windowpane]

55 minutes ago, jethrofloyd said:

Campers at Woodstock 1969

(A history is not only Egypt and Atlantis )

 

 Are you sure that wasn't a photo of people escaping from the floods of Atlantis and Egypt, and bivouacking in mini-pyramids to remind them of their lost homeland ... ?

[jethrofloyd]

21 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

 Are you sure that wasn't a photo of people escaping from the floods of Atlantis and Egypt, and bivouacking in mini-pyramids to remind them of their lost homeland ... ?

If they had the gasoline-powered vehicles at the time, then you might be right. The long-haired man, leaning with his elbow on the car door must be Moses.

[Piney]

1 hour ago, jethrofloyd said:

Campers at Woodstock 1969

(A history is not only Egypt and Atlantis )

My oldest sister went there on the University of Delaware's dime when she was studying folklore for her anthropology degree.

The running joke is she's complete teatotaler and probably drove them nuts with her Quaker ant-intoxicant speeches.

[Thanos5150]

On 6/29/2022 at 11:12 AM, ShadowSot said:

Dude I'm seriously tired and it took me a good few minutes of reading the article again and trying to figure out how watercraft came into it. 

 Im still not sure, but there's some reasons to accept that boating predates modern humans though. 

What the discoverers or click bait mill never mention when offering these claims of vastly more ancient and/or different species mariners is that sea levels were at least 400ft lower than today which the rise towards modern levels didn't start happening until around 20,000 yrs ago. It wasn't until c. 8,000yrs ago that we have the levels seen today. At the time they date these artifacts the Aegean, and Medditeranean in general, was radically different than today:

Compare to today:

No seafaring required. They walked. And if at any point they did have to traverse water it was limited and line of sight.    

An interesting site to go back in time with ancient seal levels: Flood Map.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Thanos5150

[Thanos5150]

16 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

What the discoverers or click bait mill never mention when offering these claims of vastly more ancient and/or different species mariners is that sea levels were at least 400ft lower than today which the rise towards modern levels didn't start happening until around 20,000 yrs ago. It wasn't until c. 8,000yrs ago that we have the levels seen today. At the time they date these artifacts the Aegean, and Medditeranean in general, was radically different than today:

Compare to today:

No seafaring required. They walked. And if at any point they did have to traverse water it was limited and line of sight.    

An interesting site to go back in time with ancient seal levels: Flood Map.

And I forgot to mention, these notions are based on the tool industry, Mousterian, largely attributed to Neanderthal and yet Homo sapiens in North Africa and the Levant also used Mousterian that are "indistinguishable" from Neanderthal as early as 300,000yrs ago (Jebel Irhoud) and as late as c. 90,000 (Qafzeh).    

Edited July 1, 2022 by Thanos5150

[Coil]

On 6/20/2022 at 9:54 PM, Thanos5150 said:

See here: Jiroft Culture Stepped Pyramid Ziggurats c. 2500BC, Iran. 

Regarding your photos, the stone bags are all from the Jiroft culture. The Egyptian Neithohtep label is not a "bag", oyyy, it is a building which interestingly is commonly associated Neithotep. 

  

The Gobekli Tepe "hand bags", again, not hand bags. We can see there is an animal associated with each and the "handle" is offset far to the left making for an odd and unwieldy "hand bag":

 

The Assyrian photo, yeah that's a hand bag:

 

But if you are in the market for an Annunaki hand bag, it can be yours for the low low price of $149.39.

I also doubt that Neithohtep is a bag, just a photo contained a lot of bags, so I brought him.

Bags and animals around them in Gobekli Tepe need to be able to interpret correctly. The bag is the Knowledge transmitted by the gods to people.

Jiroft culture:

During the archaeological excavations, a lot of highly artistic household items were found, which testified to the existence of a highly developed civilization. Near the village of Tepe-Yahya, one of the handicraft centers of the Jiroft civilization was also discovered.

[Hanslune]

 

I'm in the proto-dinosaur age, Harte is pre-fossilized while Windowpane and Kenemet are ageless froglets.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Hanslune

[Trelane]

8 hours ago, Windowpane said:

 Are you sure that wasn't a photo of people escaping from the floods of Atlantis and Egypt, and bivouacking in mini-pyramids to remind them of their lost homeland ... ?

I think it's actually a restored photo from a festival at Gobekli Tepe.

[Hanslune]

58 minutes ago, Trelane said:

I think it's actually a restored photo from a festival at Gobekli Tepe.

No Gobekli were the squares the cool folks were at KaraKan Tepe

[Trelane]

20 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

No Gobekli were the squares the cool folks were at KaraKan Tepe

They were the ones who called the cops? I should've known.

[jaylemurph]

7 hours ago, Hanslune said:

 

I'm in the proto-dinosaur age, Harte is pre-fossilized while Windowpane and Kenemet are ageless froglets.

Never have figured out what went wrong with you archaeologist types, wallowing around outside in mud and weather, when you could just as easily be a warm carrell in a library, sipping tea and reading.

I saw as much archaeology as I needed watching Time Team, with Robin hanging out in the personal library of some slightly inbred aristocrat, and them West Country folk freezing their proverbials off in the field.

—Jaylemurph 

[jmccr8]

10 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

No seafaring required.

Hi Thanos

At lot of archaic humans lived near waterway inland/river systems, due to the construction materials and how they degrade there is no evidence of watercraft use. We do have examples of hominids getting to islands beyond sight and followed birds and even elephants. We didn't forget how to start and control fire or how to knap tools or where to look for stone to make tools and at times it was hundreds of miles from where the blanks were made into tools and used with so for me if the use of watercraft can be reasonably inferred in ancient past because hominids were found in regions that they could not swim or walk to. If they discovered it once and employed it I doubt that they forgot how to do it again then rediscovered it forgot and rediscovered it again.

There rapid population growth in the Americas was likely due to the use of watercraft given the sites north to south, east to west that produce dates of 18kbp. During the last ice age the water work network across N.America had plenty of melt water and were more numerous and bigger with current possibilities it that is how they got here they got here in the first place.

It's not click bait it is just my opinion.

[Thanos5150]

10 hours ago, Coil said:

I also doubt that Neithohtep is a bag, just a photo contained a lot of bags, so I brought him.

Her. 

[Hanslune]

3 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

Never have figured out what went wrong with you archaeologist types, wallowing around outside in mud and weather, when you could just as easily be a warm carrell in a library, sipping tea and reading.

I saw as much archaeology as I needed watching Time Team, with Robin hanging out in the personal library of some slightly inbred aristocrat, and them West Country folk freezing their proverbials off in the field.

—Jaylemurph 

I did both being both Librarian and Archaeology trained. I found both a bit dull and took up a commission in the Army to get to Europe for four+ years -which allowed me to see a huge number of great archy sites. The cold war army made anything better than sleeping in a muddy ditch - just lovely. Shovel bumming in Arabia mainly had the problem of HEAT, sand storms, bad water, annoying grasping officials, and difficulties with getting supplies in the early days. I think the funniest thing was their paranoia about satellite photos. They just couldn't believe all their security to hide military bases and Emirs palaces was undone by detailed photos being put up on the internet for free. Drove'm crazy that we had those detailed maps when looking for Dilmun and such.

[jethrofloyd]

A new carving found on the Göbekli Tepe pillar! A holly pepper!

[Thanos5150]

20 hours ago, Hanslune said:

 

I'm in the proto-dinosaur age, Harte is pre-fossilized while Windowpane and Kenemet are ageless froglets.

[Coil]

 

Who are interested, the stages of initiation in antiquity:

Spoiler

So, the first step is the so-called raven. The one who was accepted into the mysteries became a raven. What was the raven doing? Raven was engaged in the fact that he, first of all, became an intermediary between the outside world and the mysteries.Those who had the role of teachers in the mysteries had to receive information through trusted people whom they could send to observe the world. Therefore, it can be said that the ravens were simply the confidants of those who were in the mysteries. You had to study to become a real confidant. There are many people acting as proxies today, especially in parties and the like, but the question remains whether these proxies are trustworthy! However, those who acted like ravens here in the mysteries were considered as proxies only after verification. First of all, they had to learn to observe with responsibility and then to report truthfully in the mysteries what they saw. So, at that time it was necessary first to learn what, in essence, truth means in a person. It is safe to say that in ancient times people lied no less than they lie at the present time. But at the present time lies are spreading everywhere; before, however, one had first to learn to be a truthful person. This had to be learned when man had been a raven for many years, a confidant of the mysteries.

    The second stage was something completely unsympathetic to modern man; the second step is the so-called occultist, the secret person. "Occult" means "secret", "hidden". They were no longer "on the premises", but for a certain time they learned what modern man is not inclined to learn, namely silence.
Through silence man has learned a great deal; Today this is not possible. For imagine, if in our schools it were necessary - and this is absolutely necessary for the attainment of wisdom - for young people between the ages of eighteen and twenty years of age to spend a whole year in silence instead of military service, then these people, through silence, would become terribly wise! Whoever you meet today - everyone has a so-called own point of view.  Of course, everyone has their own point of view; but from every point of view the world looks different. For someone who knows life, this is nothing new, it goes without saying. If you are standing here, then this mountain will look different than if you were standing higher. This is also the case in the spiritual life. Everyone has their own point of view, and everyone can see things differently. If a dozen people gather, then today, perhaps, they will have as many as thirteen opinions!
Previously, people in the mysteries were simply obliged to be silent in relation to what they had to study; they were allowed to be only listeners, novices. In silence, it was especially clear that - connected one with the other, like cause and effect - that the inner world of a person began to speak to him. That's what this person came up with.

The third step was what, when translated, might be called "protector." Now people started talking. Now they dared to defend the truth which they had learned through silence in the mysteries. They were entrusted with the protection of the spirit. "Protector" is the word that can be used for this third step. Those who belonged to this third step had to know enough so that what they could say about the spiritual had weight, was really weighty. Therefore, in these mysteries, a person had to not just talk about the spirit, he had to first study this spirit, he had to first become a true protector of the spirit. Then he went up to the fourth step.

 

This fourth step can be interpreted by the word "lion". It is usually interpreted like this. But it would be even better to interpret it with the word "sphinx". Sphinx is a word that means approximately the following: to become a spirit yourself. Of course, man was still in a human body, but among people, man behaved as the gods behaved. In ancient times, people did not make much difference between man and deity; in the mysteries man gradually became a god. Such is the incomparably freer point of view of the ancients. Representatives of the New Age, of course, considered the gods as standing above humanity. But the views of the ancients were not like that. Well, today they even say this: man descended from a monkey, well, that's good.
So, the ancients believed that a person is able to develop himself to the level of divine consciousness. The one who was on the fourth step, no longer spoke like a "protector" from the third step, he spoke in such a language that his expressions were, in fact, difficult to understand; I had to think about how to understand it. It is difficult for modern man to form an idea of this language spoken by the "sphinxes", because modern man is no longer able to properly consider such things. But in the Middle Ages, even, for example, in the 17th century, that is, only two centuries ago, there were still traditions of using such speech. They were preserved then, two centuries ago, in the so-called Rosicrucian schools. There, some initiates still used this language, which was something secret, a language that needed to be learned; they spoke in the language of images. So, for example, two centuries ago you could come across a picture - maybe it will interest you - which was supposed to explain something to a person. This picture was as follows: a human form with a lion's head and right next to it a human form with a bull's head. Referring to those who were to be taught, and wishing to express the relationship between these two beings, "a being with a bull's head and a being with a lion's head," meant a man and a woman. But at the same time, these two words "man" and "woman" were not used, but they said: "a creature with a bull's head", meaning a man, and "a creature with a lion's head", meaning a woman. In the relationship between a bull and a lion, they saw something similar to the relationship between a man and a woman. Today it seems to a person very paradoxical, ridiculous; but it was kept as a tradition. "Sphinxes" everywhere used the names of animals to more clearly characterize what lived in man(remember the animals of Gobekli Tepe). You see that the "sphinxes" spoke in a language in which the speech was mostly from the spiritual beginning.

Then came the fifth step. At the fifth stage were those people whose duty it was generally to speak only from the spirit. They were called in accordance with belonging to one or another people "Persian", or "Hindu", or "Greek". In Greece they were the only true Greeks. A person of this stage wants only what the whole people wants; it becomes his interest. So he becomes the spirit of the people. These spirits of the people in the ancient mysteries, also in Greece, were indeed very, very wise people. They were alien to such a mood: "I know everything, in relation to any person I oppose myself, I have my own point of view." No, even though they had reached the fifth stage, they were preparing for a long time through exercises to make a judgment about something. You see, if today someone is a statesman, then he has to respond to requests submitted to parliament. Imagine doing it the way it used to be! If the one who is obliged to give an answer said this: first I must withdraw from the world for eight days, plunge into myself in order to pass judgment on this; I would like to know what the parties in parliament would say if the request was followed by such an answer: in order to form a mature opinion on the question you asked, I will first have to retire for eight days! But they used to do just that. After all, then they trusted the spiritual world and knew: in the worldly bustle, the spiritual world does not speak, the spiritual world speaks only when it is possible to move away from the bustle.In any case, a person acquired the ability to step back even in the midst of this worldly fuss, but this had to be learned first. Having learned this, a person in ancient times reached the sixth step.

The sixth stage consisted in the fact that this person no longer had a point of view connected with the earth, for example, with a certain people.. But he spoke like this: I am a "Greek", while my brother, initiated in Assyria in the fifth degree, is an "Assyrian", and one who lives even further away is a "Persian". But these are all just separate locations, one-sided points of view. The sun goes from Persia to Greece; it shines on all of us. Those who were initiates of the sixth stage were no longer willing to learn what the individual people said, they wanted to learn what the Sun said. They became "sun people", not "earth people", but "sun people". You see, all such "solar people" tried to view everything from the point of view of the Sun. How all this was once done, modern people no longer have any idea, because modern people know nothing at all about the secrets of the world. That is why these "solar people" investigated the secrets of the Sun.

Pyramids, for example, were built truly not only to be the tombs of the pharaohs; in the pyramids there were special holes through which a sunbeam could penetrate at certain times of the year. A sunbeam described a figure on the ground. And when such a figure was considered by the people mentioned, they received inspirations from this figure. Through this they explored the mysteries of solar life. Consequently, such a person, who became a "solar man", could say that he no longer orients himself to the earthly, that he orients himself to the Sun. And then, if for a long time he was in the state of a "solar man" and taught people what is extraterrestrial, cosmic, he rose to the rank of "Father". It was the highest dignity, the highest rank, which was achieved by few. These were the ones who became completely mature: they were obeyed, followed. A person obeyed them, because, firstly, they reached a respectable age - after all, while a person was overcoming these seven steps, he had time to grow old - they were obeyed also because they possessed worldly wisdom, and, in addition, they also possessed universal wisdom.