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kmt_sesh

Let's talk history

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MWoo7

You sure are gettting a kick out of this spanking business HAHAHAHA! sheeze what is with that?!?!?!  
Can't believe how this thread is moving, or I've just been busy, have to go over some of this, laterz for now.

3 hours ago, back to earth said:

Image result for tinkerbell spank gif

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MWoo7
17 hours ago, Totah Dine said:

This is a fallacy.  Most people don't know this but the Apache and Navajo

Thought it mentioned Tartar Chinese and Apache.

Immediately say FALLACY and then start talking about two Native American tribes.

17 hours ago, Totah Dine said:
22 hours ago, MWoo7 said:


“… The Tartar Chinese speak the dialect of the Apaches. The Apaches bear a striking resemblance to the Tartar. In about the year 1885, W. B. Horton, who had served as County Superintendent of Schools, at Tucson, was appointed Post Trader at Camp Apache, and went to San Francisco to purchase his stock, where he hired a Chinese cook. His kitchen adjoined his sleeping apartment, and one evening while in his room he heard in the kitchen some Indians talking. Wondering what they were doing there at that hour of the night, he opened the door and found his cook conversing with an Apache. He asked his cook where he had acquired the Indian language. The cook said: “He speak all same me. I Tartar Chinese; he speak same me, little different, not much.”

This is a fallacy.  Most people don't know this but the Apache and Navajo are actually different bands of the same tribe.  We can converse with each other and understand each other.  There are some words and phrases that are a bit different.  Each band tends to borrow language from the other tribes around them and incorporate them

 

Edited by MWoo7

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MWoo7

Like this:

19 hours ago, Totah Dine said:

There are some words that seem similar but that happens in any language.


Also like your bit about Indians from India, yeah old articles didn't really say North American Native or as in Canada First Nations.

Edited by MWoo7

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back to earth
2 hours ago, MWoo7 said:

You sure are gettting a kick out of this spanking business HAHAHAHA! sheeze what is with that?!?!?!  
 

Image result for sleazy looking dog

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back to earth

nah , cant do it 

as you said   : WHats with that ?

 

I am a dog   (you said that too )   

 ************sleezy dog gif warning  below **********

spanking , smelling,  pats and .... you know   ;) 

'sall the same to me  ! 

 

 

Spoiler

Related image

 .... ewwwwwww  !  :angry:

... damn dogs ! 

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MWoo7

Yeah there was another thread or such about the very same thing(Pillow) and I was sure someone was going to jump with Eeehw not my pillow or some smarty comment.  Alrighty I've too much to do, have to fly THANKS FOR YOUR TWO BITS !

Edited by MWoo7

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Totah Dine
6 hours ago, MWoo7 said:

Thought it mentioned Tartar Chinese and Apache.

Immediately say FALLACY and then start talking about two Native American tribes.

 

Tartar Chinese speak an archaic form of Tartar which is a Turkic language.  Did you bother to research or are you too busy trying to get your "gotcha" moment?  I'm actually speaking about ONE tribe who speak variants of the same language.  Just because the Spaniards gave us different names (due to ignorance and a false sense of superiority) doesn't mean we're not the same people. We are. That's why I brought it up.  It's an Athabaskan language that has nothing to do with ANY form of Tartar.  

My comment about "Indians" was a general statement and had nothing to do with you personally.  You used the term Native American before your quote so I was well aware you were cognizant of the difference.  If there was a misunderstanding it was my fault and I apologize.  I wasn't attacking your character or making any claims other than being tired of Indian being used.  It was a label attached to us by a genocidal evil b****** by the name of Christopher Colombus who was partly responsible for the extinction of an entire people.  Enslavement and torture was his modus operandi.  And this man has a day named after him and is a Federal Government holiday.  That would be like celebrating Hitler day in Israel.  

And yes it is a fallacy.  

Edited by Totah Dine
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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
9 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

"Americans" just has a nice, easy ring to it. Nothing else really works. United Statesians? United Staters? No, that sounds like a soccer (football) team. Mexico lends itself well to Mexicans, and Cuba to Cubans, and Guatemala to Guatemalans, and Canada to Canadians, and United States to...Americans. Although I think a lot of Brits still think of us as Colonials, but that's so eighteenth century.

Atleast you guys aren't named after a pastry like we are. <_<

cherry-danish.jpg

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internetperson
14 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

It's an interesting subject but not one to which I've devoted much time. I prefer more ancient fields of study.

10-4

So as a change of subject (on my part) why are some sites intentionally buried? I know of a Sumerian temple (I could look it up if need be) and someone was telling me there's an AE 'something' (temple or whatever) which was also intentionally buried. 

I've heard of this before in other locations as well. I can provide examples if need be I'm just hoping your superior intelligence knows exactly what I'm talking about and I wont have to summon google.

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kmt_sesh
6 hours ago, Totah Dine said:

...

My comment about "Indians" was a general statement and had nothing to do with you personally.  You used the term Native American before your quote so I was well aware you were cognizant of the difference.  If there was a misunderstanding it was my fault and I apologize.  I wasn't attacking your character or making any claims other than being tired of Indian being used.  It was a label attached to us by a genocidal evil b****** by the name of Christopher Colombus who was partly responsible for the extinction of an entire people.  Enslavement and torture was his modus operandi.  And this man has a day named after him and is a Federal Government holiday.  That would be like celebrating Hitler day in Israel.  

And yes it is a fallacy.  

I've had a lot of interaction with Native Americans over the years—pipe ceremonies and sweats with Hidatsa and Lakota, that sort of thing. That was a long time ago. The holy man who led our sweat lodge liked to tell the joke about how glad he was Columbus didn't discover Turkey because then his people would be called Turkeys instead of Indians. He never seemed hung up on labels. He was a sweet and kind old man.

I never use the term "Indian" myself and, as is seen in the above paragraph, tend to prefer Native American. But then another Native American at UM once said the preferred term now is Amerindian. Now I'm hearing First Nation. I kind of like that one but it's hard to keep up with the times. :o

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kmt_sesh
3 hours ago, internetperson said:

10-4

So as a change of subject (on my part) why are some sites intentionally buried? I know of a Sumerian temple (I could look it up if need be) and someone was telling me there's an AE 'something' (temple or whatever) which was also intentionally buried. 

I've heard of this before in other locations as well. I can provide examples if need be I'm just hoping your superior intelligence knows exactly what I'm talking about and I wont have to summon google.

Probably the example with which most people are familiar is Göbekli Tepe in Turkey. But, yes, there are others, although I can't think of a clear-cut example in Egypt. In pharaonic times some sites were simply abandoned and left to ruin, while in many other cases they just kept building on the same site and compiled layer after layer of archaeological strata. Hisarlik in Turkey is another good example of this—the putative site of legendary Troy.

But why some ancient sites around the world were deliberately buried is not always well understood. We can't know exactly why this was done at Göbekli Tepe, for instance. It might be how ancient people deconsecrated a sacred site, so as to make a once holy space profane. I sometimes wonder if it's like burying someone who has died: a beloved person of the community is returned to the earth, and a sacred structure is, too. The person is no longer to be seen, and the sacred structure is no longer to be used.

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ShadowSot
31 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Probably the example with which most people are familiar is Göbekli Tepe in Turkey. But, yes, there are others, although I can't think of a clear-cut example in Egypt. In pharaonic times some sites were simply abandoned and left to ruin, while in many other cases they just kept building on the same site and compiled layer after layer of archaeological strata. Hisarlik in Turkey is another good example of this—the putative site of legendary Troy.

But why some ancient sites around the world were deliberately buried is not always well understood. We can't know exactly why this was done at Göbekli Tepe, for instance. It might be how ancient people deconsecrated a sacred site, so as to make a once holy space profane. I sometimes wonder if it's like burying someone who has died: a beloved person of the community is returned to the earth, and a sacred structure is, too. The person is no longer to be seen, and the sacred structure is no longer to be used.

Wasn't one of the temples or structures of Hatshepshut covered over? 

 Probably remembering wrong, but it seems like it was her. 

 If anything, it seems like rather than burying or covering up a sight, the Pharoahs were just as likely to try to take credit for it.

 There is the pagan complex in Scotland that was covered up by its worshippers as Christianity spread through the area. To protect it, presumably.

 

Edited by ShadowSot

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kmt_sesh
2 minutes ago, ShadowSot said:

Wasn't one of the temples or structures of Hatshepshut covered over? 

 Probably remembering wrong, but it seems like it was her. 

 If anything, it seems like rather than burying or covering up a sight, the Pharoahs were just as likely to try to take credit for it.

...

Pharaohs certainly took credit for earlier kings' works, a process which was completely legitimate for any reigning king. It was believed that when a king was in power, every last thing in Egypt was his physical property. It was of little consequence to hack out a previous pharaoh's name and insert the name of the sitting king. Horemheb did this with a lot of King Tut's monuments, but probably no one did it more than Rameses II (archaeologists have nicknamed him "the Chisler").

With Hatshepsut you might be thinking of the Red Chapel. But she falls under the category of royal anathema, so her monuments weren't really buried but disassembled and parts either reused or employed as fill inside other, later monuments. This is the case with the Red Chapel, which was a barque shrine for processional rituals. The intent was to erase all records of her reign. Most of the components of the Red Chapel were discovered and the monument has been rebuilt in modern times, but later kings had intended to hide it away. Her massive mortuary monument at Deir el Bahri was of use for later kings, so they erased a lot of her images but went on using the monument in later times.

Another good example of this is Akhenaten's city of Akhetaten. Through the years, beginning in Horemheb's reign, its temples and monuments were systematically disassembled and used as fill in temples at Hermopolis, Karnak, and elsewhere.

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ShadowSot
20 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Pharaohs certainly took credit for earlier kings' works, a process which was completely legitimate for any reigning king. It was believed that when a king was in power, every last thing in Egypt was his physical property. It was of little consequence to hack out a previous pharaoh's name and insert the name of the sitting king. Horemheb did this with a lot of King Tut's monuments, but probably no one did it more than Rameses II (archaeologists have nicknamed him "the Chisler").

With Hatshepsut you might be thinking of the Red Chapel. But she falls under the category of royal anathema, so her monuments weren't really buried but disassembled and parts either reused or employed as fill inside other, later monuments. This is the case with the Red Chapel, which was a barque shrine for processional rituals. The intent was to erase all records of her reign. Most of the components of the Red Chapel were discovered and the monument has been rebuilt in modern times, but later kings had intended to hide it away. Her massive mortuary monument at Deir el Bahri was of use for later kings, so they erased a lot of her images but went on using the monument in later times.

Another good example of this is Akhenaten's city of Akhetaten. Through the years, beginning in Horemheb's reign, its temples and monuments were systematically disassembled and used as fill in temples at Hermopolis, Karnak, and elsewhere.

Ah, I see. Bob Brier mentioned it in his audio lecture (and yes it was the Red Chapel - very Game of Thrones name there) were he proposed it had been partially preserved by her successor on purpose. 

 Certainly reusing parts of structures isnt anything new or unique. Most of the brick work in Rome was torn up and used again, keaving behind the nice marbel. And there are parts of temples and such used in the aquaducts.

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MWoo7
8 hours ago, Totah Dine said:

Tartar Chinese speak an archaic form of Tartar which is a Turkic language.  Did you bother to research or are you too busy trying to get your "gotcha" moment?  I'm actually speaking about ONE tribe who speak variants of the same language.  Just because the Spaniards gave us different names (due to ignorance and a false sense of superiority) doesn't mean we're not the same people. We are. That's why I brought it up.  It's an Athabaskan language that has nothing to do with ANY form of Tartar.  

My comment about "Indians" was a general statement and had nothing to do with you personally.  You used the term Native American before your quote so I was well aware you were cognizant of the difference.  If there was a misunderstanding it was my fault and I apologize.  I wasn't attacking your character or making any claims other than being tired of Indian being used.  It was a label attached to us by a genocidal evil b****** by the name of Christopher Colombus who was partly responsible for the extinction of an entire people.  Enslavement and torture was his modus operandi.  And this man has a day named after him and is a Federal Government holiday.  That would be like celebrating Hitler day in Israel.

Yeah you already intimated the Turk angle/vain/point/view and now again.  Too cordial -- YEY !  Now I really, make that reeheheEEEEEEEALLY! enjoy your two bits !  Yeah, I'd a lot of Asian friends and had spent time working with with some North American Natives.  I knew some if I mention Chinese they just really didn't like well any mention of Chinese, the women anyway.  With some of my Asian friends I'd mention something in other languages and it was pretty funny because sometimes I'd get back and definitive low sounding sharp like no! or Neoooooow those are my words. Was kind of funny, thought I'd mention it.  Alrighty that's about it for me, and again recap: thanks for your words, so SOO! much appreciated!

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Parsec
18 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

"Americans" just has a nice, easy ring to it. Nothing else really works. United Statesians? United Staters? No, that sounds like a soccer (football) team. Mexico lends itself well to Mexicans, and Cuba to Cubans, and Guatemala to Guatemalans, and Canada to Canadians, and United States to...Americans. Although I think a lot of Brits still think of us as Colonials, but that's so eighteenth century.

Well, some south American countries still think of north Americans as colonialists, how things change! 

 

This is actually a very interesting topic, regarding the notion of Nation (sorry for the alliteration) in the US, but it would take time to discuss it seriously, and now unfortunately I don't have it. 

 

Anyway, what about US citizens instead? 

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Parsec
22 hours ago, internetperson said:

Frankly I knew most of this. I should word my question better. If I can't articulate my question in this 5 min post then the next one I promise I'll take more effort and use examples....anyway

What throws me off about the book is the imagery. Books of the NT are a bit more straightforward with the parables of Christ and whatnot. It's much easier to read than the OT. Revelations is completely out of left field in this regard. It literally reads like someone was abducted by aliens.

Graham Hancock said early Christianity was a fertility cult that apparently used hallucinogens (maybe slightly misquoting him here). He says lots of things though.

Oh! What do you think about the apocryphal text? I mean to ask 1 question per post but I'm bursting at the seams and don't wanna forget.

Oh wow, that is quite a broad question. 

I'll try to be reeeeally short. 

 

Traditionally the canon is attributed to the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, but apparently this is not substantiated. 

The New Testament we know and use today and the apocryphal texts are such only because they were decided so by pope Damasus I and st. Jerome in 382 AD. 

Damasus commissioned a translation in Latin to Jerome (that would have become the Vulgate), indicating which texts he approved to use. 

Basically all texts that agreed with the dogmas proposed at the time. 

 

This is one of the reasons why the book of revelations is so different, because it has been arbitrarily chosen by someone among dozens and dozens of others. 

It might as well be an apocryphal itself and indeed, according to Luther, it is.

 

 

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Parsec
10 hours ago, Totah Dine said:

It was a label attached to us by a genocidal evil b****** by the name of Christopher Colombus who was partly responsible for the extinction of an entire people.  Enslavement and torture was his modus operandi.  And this man has a day named after him and is a Federal Government holiday.  That would be like celebrating Hitler day in Israel.  

And yes it is a fallacy.  

First, if the nazis would have won the war, it's quite probable today we'd all celebrate a Hitler day. 

That's the right parallelism. 

The conquistadores and the British/European settlers, like it or not, are the winners, so they celebrate the person that according to their mythology allowed that to happen in the first place. 

 

Second, the things you write about him (besides being quite harsh) are disputed and, to be fair, even his own existence is disputed! 

For instance, I've always found both fascinating and really serendipitous that the man who officially opened the route to ("discovered") the new world was called Christopher Columbus, that in Latin means "dove bringer of Christ".

You know, like the Biblical dove who finds the new earth after the flood: in this case he finds a new continent, where he brings Christianity, and thus the European culture of the time, to. 

 

It would be as if Neil's surname, instead of Armstrong, was Moonwalker. 

Heck, not even Neil: First Moonwalker.

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internetperson

Next question:

I'm fascinated in religions in general but I'll keep this one to AE. How did AE originally form its religion? It's not like they borrowed from anyone else, so who made it up? Or was it more of a collection of ideas that slowly formed together in 1 big religion? What would've it been called? Hopefully it has a cool name. How would the average blue collar AE person practice their religion, if at all?

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back to earth
3 hours ago, Parsec said:

First, if the nazis would have won the war, it's quite probable today we'd all celebrate a Hitler day. 

That's the right parallelism. 

The conquistadores and the British/European settlers, like it or not, are the winners, so they celebrate the person that according to their mythology allowed that to happen in the first place. 

 

Second, the things you write about him (besides being quite harsh) are disputed and, to be fair, even his own existence is disputed! 

For instance, I've always found both fascinating and really serendipitous that the man who officially opened the route to ("discovered") the new world was called Christopher Columbus, that in Latin means "dove bringer of Christ".

You know, like the Biblical dove who finds the new earth after the flood: in this case he finds a new continent, where he brings Christianity, and thus the European culture of the time, to. 

I think Dali may have been 'on to him'   :) 

 

Image result for dali christopher columbus

'Christopher Columbus Discovers America ' 

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Hanslune
23 hours ago, kmt_sesh said:

 Although I think a lot of Brits still think of us as Colonials, but that's so eighteenth century.

In the 19th century the Empire referred to the the Americans as jonathans, Our cousins, The Queenless, the lost royals, Staters, Yankees and few others less agreeable terms.

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back to earth
1 hour ago, internetperson said:

Next question:

I'm fascinated in religions in general but I'll keep this one to AE. How did AE originally form its religion? It's not like they borrowed from anyone else, so who made it up? Or was it more of a collection of ideas that slowly formed together in 1 big religion? What would've it been called? Hopefully it has a cool name. How would the average blue collar AE person practice their religion, if at all?

Who knows ?  A virtual impossible question to answer . Maybe it evolved from  various local beliefs;  totems (animals and landform features ) , going waaaaaay back .  We need to look at some type of force or energy ( IMO )  what bought it together in a type of unity that is specifically 'Egyptian' .  

An easier question might be ;  where did  the earliest ' Pharaonic 'religious'  Culture'  come from. 

It seems to have been involved with cattle herding that moved between the Nile banks and floodplain and up into the wadis, perhaps seasonally ? 

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2012/11/pictures/121129-oldest-pharaoh-rock-art-egypt-science/

and  

https://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Pharaohs-Dramatic-Discoveries-Rewrite/dp/0500051224   (ignore the title claims - there is some good info in it otherwise ) 

 

Image result for pharaonic rock art Toby wilkinson

 

 

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Parsec
4 minutes ago, back to earth said:

I think Dali may have been 'on to him'   :) 

 

Image result for dali christopher columbus

'Christopher Columbus Discovers America ' 

 

Eh, what can I say, "great minds think alike".

Besides the fact that, if ever existed, he was of course Italian!

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back to earth
7 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

In the 19th century the Empire referred to the the Americans as jonathans, Our cousins, The Queenless, the lost royals, Staters, Yankees and few others less agreeable terms.

You left out  ' Seppo s '     :)   

(That one raised a few eyebrows on some joint US / Aussie productions I worked on !  ) 

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docyabut2
Quote

Well there is that oldest vase ever found in Egypt, with a man lying down in a boat

 

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