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Westminster Terror attack, shootings


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2 hours ago, aztek said:

so there are justifications to kill in quran? 

i wonder,  those Muslims who are killed by radical islamist, were they not treating radicals nicely? what justifications they found in quran to kill them?

If you pick up the Bible, Torah or Quran (they are all slightly different versions of the same Abrahamic faith) and read them you will find quite a lot of controversial passages in them. They contain lots of instructions about slaughtering this type of person, making that type of person a slave, and dont forget to stone your wife if she cheats on you.

Most Muslims in Western countries practice a moderate form of Islam. They are not extremists. But a few, whether it is because they have a breakdown or some other reason, take some of the instructions quite literally. The kind of passages where it is clearly written to go out and slaughter this or that type of person.

We tackle ISIS and stop terrorism by first understanding the most literal interpretation of their religion and then carefully formulating our strategies with it in mind. We have to do that because its not only what ISIS are working off but if we treat a Muslim to a mental breakdown we risk them being drawn to it too.

The most literal interpretation of the Quran (and the Bible and Torah) forbids them to harm unless harmed. If they perceive they have been harmed it can lead to terrorism. We need to make sure we are running a society that treats them properly. And when we take military action it needs to be seen as just and the right thing to do. Not like that mess in Iraq which was completely unrelated to 9/11 and just inflamed the situation.

With the final part of your question the Quran differentiates between true and fake Muslims. So ISIS, are reading that quite literally and punishing those that dont come up to the required standard. If you want to know the justifications pick up the Quran and read it. You wont have to wait long, it starts appearing in the very first chapter. It, and the Bible, were written a long time ago when things were very different.

Edited by RabidMongoose
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3 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

If you pick up the Bible, Torah or Quran (they are all slightly different versions of the same Abrahamic faith) and read them you will find quite a lot of controversial passages in them. They contain lots of instructions about slaughtering this type of person, making that type of person a slave, and dont forget to stone your wife if she cheats on you.

Most Muslims in Western countries practice a moderate form of Islam. They are not extremists. But a few, whether it is because they have a breakdown or some other reason, take some of the instructions quite literally. The kind of passages where it is clearly written to go out and slaughter this or that type of person.

We tackle ISIS and stop terrorism by first understanding the most literal interpretation of their religion and then carefully formulating our strategies with it in mind. We have to do that because its not only what ISIS are working off but if we treat a Muslim to a mental breakdown we risk them being drawn to it too.

The most literal interpretation of the Quran (and the Bible and Torah) forbids them to harm unless harmed. If they perceive they have been harmed it can lead to terrorism. We need to make sure we are running a society that treats them properly. And when we take military action it needs to be seen as just and the right thing to do. Not like that mess in Iraq which was completely unrelated to 9/11 and just inflamed the situation.

With the final part of your question the Quran differentiates between true and fake Muslims. So ISIS, are reading that quite literally and punishing those that dont come up to the required standard. If you want to know the justifications pick up the Quran and read it. You wont have to wait long, it starts appearing in the very first chapter.

Someone is using his/her brain. 

Thank you!!!

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so, we are in this big mess.... the million dollar question is...

What do we do to change things? How do we change things? We cant exactly chuck everyone out the country who doesn't think like us, and 'us' in this case... is regular white/black/brown people who are either Christian or Catholics...and those of us who couldn't give a damn about religion

we can chase our tails forever discussing the events..... but.... how to change things so we can live in peace?

 

 

Edited by seeder
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7 minutes ago, seeder said:

so, we are in this big mess.... the million dollar question is...

What do we do to change things? How do we change things? We cant exactly chuck everyone out the country who doesn't think like us, and 'us' in this case... is regular white people who are either Christian or Catholics...and those of us who couldn't give a damn about religion

we can chase our tails forever discussing the events..... but.... how to change things so we can live in peace?

I say we put Bush and Blair on trial for an illegal war, issue an apology to Iraq, stop trying to destabilize Syria, and let the Sunni's have their independence even though it means the new country will be a Caliphate. So long as it agrees not to attack its neighbours or seek weapons of mass destruction we will let them do their own thing. And we should require transparency too.

Meanwhile we need to cut immigration right the way back and carefully screen those we allow in to make sure they are going to be able to fit in with our society. Like employing someone who doesnt fit in with the existing team at a business then it just causes conflict.

Edited by RabidMongoose
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It seems our terrorist had a regular English name....once

Quote

 

EXCLUSIVE: London terror attacker Khalid Masood, 52, once stabbed a man in the FACE and changed from Kent schoolboy Adrian Elms to maniac who launched car and knife rampage through Westminster

    Police reveal a middle-aged extremist from the West Midlands carried out yesterday's terror attack
    MailOnline can reveal he was born Adrian Elms in Kent before his religious conversion
    Scotland Yard say he had a long list of crimes to his name but had not been convicted of terror offences
    In an attack in 2003, he stabbed a man in the face, leaving him slumped in the driveway of a nursing home
    Theresa May said he was known to the security services but was 'not part of the current intelligence picture'
    Probe into the British citizen's links to violent jihadism was 'historical' and he was deemed 'peripheral'
    ISIS have claimed responsibility for the attack, saying the killer was a 'soldier of the Islamic State'


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4340858/Armed-police-seal-Birmingham-ongoing-incident.html#ixzz4cBsdyqVV


 


 

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5 minutes ago, seeder said:

It seems our terrorist had a regular English name....once


 

Sigh. Another westerner converted to radical Islam. Who wants to put money on this having happened while he was in prison? 

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1 hour ago, Sweetpumper said:

Sarcasm or the biting truth?

Tommy Robinson Rips into Laughing Leftists at London Terror Site

Leftists giggle as Robison warns: This is a war.

https://www.infowars.com/tommy-robinson-tears-into-laughing-islamapologists-at-london-terror-site/

Nice bit of dodgy reporting as usual. The people there aren't laughing at the attack, they're laughing at the idiot rambling at the camera who seems to think a terrorist can change what it is to be british.

One of those things is laughing at idiots shouting in the street. On that note, I will now go back to laughing at your posts.

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12 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

I say we put Bush and Blair on trial for an illegal war, issue an apology to Iraq, stop trying to destabilize Syria, and let the Sunni's have their independence even though it means the new country will be a Caliphate. So long as it agrees not to attack its neighbours or seek weapons of mass destruction we will let them do their own thing. And we should require transparency too.

Meanwhile we need to cut immigration right the way back and carefully screen those we allow in to make sure they are going to be able to fit in with our society. Like employing someone who doesnt fit in with the existing team at a business then it just causes conflict.

 

And....stop those who radicalise others....remove ALL extremists websites and forums from the web, somehow, and from society

if you can take the rotten apple out of the barrel, there is a good chance the other apples wont rot

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29 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

If you pick up the Bible, Torah

why? neither is used as justification for killing thousands yearly, at least. not in this day and age,  pretty much irrelevant what those 2 say.

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40 minutes ago, aztek said:

why? neither is used as justification for killing thousands yearly, at least. not in this day and age,  pretty much irrelevant what those 2 say.

You might want to tell that to the countless in Africa who have died from aids thanks to the Catholic Church telling them that condoms are a sin.

And you might also want to have a look at Rwanda. I'm pretty sure that if you took the death toll from there and turned it into an average for all the years since, that single genocide would dwarf, or at least rival, deaths in the name of Islam.

Then there's Israel. I'm not even touching that one in this sub forum other than to say the entire conflict in the Palestinian Territories is down to the religious belief that they were entitled to that land.

And there are other examples, if you would just open your eyes. So you should probably retract that foolish statement.

Edited by ExpandMyMind
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51 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

I say we put Bush and Blair on trial for an illegal war, issue an apology to Iraq, stop trying to destabilize Syria, and let the Sunni's have their independence even though it means the new country will be a Caliphate. So long as it agrees not to attack its neighbours or seek weapons of mass destruction we will let them do their own thing. And we should require transparency too.

Meanwhile we need to cut immigration right the way back and carefully screen those we allow in to make sure they are going to be able to fit in with our society. Like employing someone who doesnt fit in with the existing team at a business then it just causes conflict.

I do not agree with you on some points:

Immigration is ok. Tougher screening, once in the country a 10 year wait period for citizenship, no crim record for that time etc. That would help.

Although many many terrorists are recent converts and not immigrants.

I do not agree of a suni caliphat or shia or any. Why? What about people like me? Not a suni or shia or any domination. Just a muslim. There are more like me then you would think.

One way to help is not generelizing all muslims and islam. This is something you guys have to work on.

Hitler, Milosevic, Stalin, they are known by name. All those non muslim killers and massmurderes are known by name. But when it comes down to a muslim murdere then the MUSLIM word is in the front and the name is forgotten.

Try to work on that, could help.

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33 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

In a dim light . 

 

Look,  the bigger point is, the UK, like many others in Europe, has accepted thousands upon thousands, millions perhaps, of immigrants. A large portion of which are Muslim. And within those good sweet hardworking no fuss muslims.....are extremists, as shown in my above vids

They are now so strong in number that literally....whole towns have brown skinned people....and as said - and as seen in the vids, British people are told to go to hell....and that THEY will take over..... and one day this will be a Muslim country

If you live in a town/country that doesnt have this issue....then you really cant comment from the first hand viewpoint, now can you? I live in the UK, Im a white Englishman with traceable past to other white people....my chosen religion is to be Christian, not that Im a very good one....I have NO desire to push my religion down anyones throats... likewise, I wont accept others pushing their religion down my throat...

But there comes a point.... when patience runs out, and something has to give

Us Brits are tolerant types....raised to have a stiff upper lip and all that jazz..... but we do have a breaking point.

And this is what I suggested when I asked how we change this? Because what I foresee.... is Brits rising up and going on a furious rampage...whereby houses and businesses will be burnt to the ground....ones that dont belong to white brits of course

If people who are of other faiths, and have extreme views.... launch attacks on the UK, as seen with the Houses of Parliament, Lee Rigby the young soldier who was decapitated on a London street....the Muslim patrols who go on the streets of London and assault gay people or girls in revealing dresses....or attack other brits for having a beer on the streets....and all the other crap that is under-reported...

well, in my view.... they need dealing with, the non violent option is to discuss that and IMPLEMENT it, and ASAP

The other option is riots and murders and smouldering shops and homes

 

 

 

Edited by seeder
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12 minutes ago, seeder said:

 

Look,  the bigger point is, the UK, like many others in Europe, has accepted thousands upon thousands, millions perhaps, of immigrants. A large portion of which are Muslim. And within those good sweet hardworking no fuss muslims.....are extremists, as shown in my above vids

They are now so strong in number that literally....whole towns have brown skinned people....and as said - and as seen in the vids, British people are told to go to hell....and that THEY will take over..... and one day this will be a Muslim country

If you live in a town/country that doesnt have this issue....then you really cant comment from the first hand viewpoint, now can you? I live in the UK, Im a white Englishman with traceable past to other white people....my chosen religion is to be Christian, not that Im a very good one....I have NO desire to push my religion down anyones throats... likewise, I wont accept others pushing their religion down my throat...

But there comes a point.... when patience runs out, and something has to give

Us Brits are tolerant types....raised to have a stiff upper lip and all that jazz..... but we do have a breaking point.

And this is what I suggested when I asked how we change this? Because what I foresee.... is Brits rising up and going on a furious rampage...whereby houses and businesses will be burnt to the ground....ones that dont belong to white brits of course

If people who are of other faiths, and have extreme views.... launch attacks on the UK, as seen with the Houses of Parliament, Lee Rigby the young soldier who was decapitated on a London street....the Muslim patrols who go on the streets of London and assault gay people or girls in revealing dresses....or attack other brits for having a beer on the streets....and all the other crap that is under-reported...

well, in my view.... they need dealing with, the non violent option is to discuss that and IMPLEMENT it, and ASAP

The other option is riots and murders and smouldering shops and homes

 

 

 

Everything you describe here has happened before. Just not in our country. We went to war against them if you remember. Personally, I've a higher opinion of my countrymen than to think they'd stoop to that level.

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Just now, seeder said:

 

Look,  the bigger point is, the UK, like many others in Europe, has accepted thousands upon thousands, millions perhaps, of immigrants. A large portion of which are Muslim. And within those good sweet hardworking no fuss muslims.....are extremists, as shown in my above vids

They are now so strong in number that literally....whole towns have brown skinned people....and as said - and as seen in the vids, British people are told to go to hell....and that THEY will take over and one day this will be a Muslim country

If you live in a town/country that doesnt have this issue....then you really cant comment from the first hand viewpoint, now can you? I live in the UK, Im a white Englishman with traceable past to other white people....my chosen religion is to be Christian, not that Im a very good one....I have NO desire to push my religion down anyones throats... likewise, I wont accept others pushing their religion down my throat...

But there comes a point.... when patience runs out, and something has to give

Us Brits are tolerant types....raised to have a stiff upper lip and all that jazz..... but we do have a breaking point.

And this is what I suggested when I asked how we change this? Because what I foresee.... is Brits rising up and going on a furious rampage...whereby houses and businesses will be burnt to the ground....ones that dont belong to white brits of course

If people who are of other faiths, and have extreme views.... launch attacks on the UK, as seen with the Houses of Parliament, Lee Rigby the young soldier who was decapitated on a London street....the Muslim patrols who go on the streets of London and assault gay people or girls in revealing dresses....or attack other brits for having a beer on the streets....and all the other crap that is under-reported...

well, in my view.... they need dealing with, the non violent option is to discuss that and IMPLEMENT it, and ASAP

The other option is riots and murders and smouldering shops and homes

You're right , im not there and I cant say the things you are saying arent happening. What I can do though is examine the evidence you are posting and that evidence is somewhat lacking. One video showed a small group of people marching and protesting peacefully (albeit offensively) , and the next was an edited all to hell propaganda piece put out by a right wing anti muslim group. 

It seems to me there should be better evidence out there. 

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4 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

 

It seems to me there should be better evidence out there. 

 

Better evidence of what exactly? Youve all seen the news that started this thread... some fanatic mowing down innocent people on a street and then stabbing a cop to death

How much more murder do we need to see?

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Just now, seeder said:

 

Better evidence of what exactly? Youve all seen the news that started this thread... some fanatic mowing down innocent people on a street and then stabbing a cop to death

How much more murder do we need to see?

Yeah I cant blame an entire group of people for the actions of a few nutjobs, especially since the most recent nutjob was british born. Are you suggesting your nation ban the religion altogether? 

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2 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Yeah I cant blame an entire group of people for the actions of a few nutjobs, especially since the most recent nutjob was british born. Are you suggesting your nation ban the religion altogether? 

 

Nowhere have I even come close to suggest banning anyone..... but the problem exists, and for sure....some other nutcases watching the news in the OP will be clapping for the killer.... and perhaps formulating their own evil plans to kill yet more innocents

But I did ask the question.... what can we do about it? How do we end the extremists?

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6 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

 especially since the most recent nutjob was british born.

 

where someone is born is irrelevant.  How someone grows up and the religion they practice adds more value to the discussion

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Just now, seeder said:

 

Nowhere have I even come close to suggest banning anyone..... but the problem exists, and for sure....some other nutcases watching the news in the OP will be clapping for the killer.... and perhaps formulating their own evil plans to kill yet more innocents

But I did ask the question.... what can we do about it? How do we end the extremists?

As someone who doesnt believe war is an act of nature and is something that can be stopped, I would suggest the first step should be that we stop killing people in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen and anywhere else we're spending billions to bomb people in tents. Terrorist attacks have gone up by according to some as much as 6500% since we began this idiotic and faux "war in terror" 

On a certain level the west has become as extreme as the jihadists, time to lead by example and stop the insanity 

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5 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

As someone who doesnt believe war is an act of nature and is something that can be stopped, I would suggest the first step should be that we stop killing people in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen and anywhere else we're spending billions to bomb people in tents. Terrorist attacks have gone up by according to some as much as 6500% since we began this idiotic and faux "war in terror" 

On a certain level the west has become as extreme as the jihadists, time to lead by example and stop the insanity 

 

But its the US who led the war on terror.. so now what?

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42 minutes ago, seeder said:

 

Better evidence of what exactly? Youve all seen the news that started this thread... some fanatic mowing down innocent people on a street and then stabbing a cop to death

How much more murder do we need to see?

"How much more murder do we need to see?"  No kidding ! *echo echo*  

Pretty clear to most it would seem.

Some would swear when reading things one friend might say to another, "No they have to be kidding, right??!?!?", 
the other "" surely they jest / joking right?!?!"   But nope, insanely they're being serious.   I've actually known some bleeding hearts and probably even if some @#($*@(#* undesirables, killed their whole family they would have something nice to say or bring them in to live for a while because they really didn't mean it or its the laws or something bad about the USA or oh ! its only because of society etc. etc. reasoning.   Its surprising the things people say sometimes.

=-=-=- cont.

What's more insane is like parents who dropped off their kid in the dark of night for punishment , the next day a cap left  that was about it all that was found by search crews the next few days , (hang signs on them, pull them through all main streets of every town, but will never happen)

Another one .... mother killed her own daughter with botox injections, Now, .... courts and Lawyers ... HA!
INSANITY of the finest HIGHEST MAGNITUDE!  Have to spend THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS to have hearings to see if these people are guilty for sure really guilty as though most people/sheep are not quite sure if there was something done wrong CAAAAAAARRAAAAAAAZY !

Edited by MWoo7
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Just now, seeder said:

 

But its the US who led the war on terror.. so now what?

The US led and is leading the war on terror but their allies are right there with her, including Britain. Perhaps if those allies stopped participating and began calling out the US for her war crimes then things would begin to change. Like i said, lead by example. 

IDK man I dont have the answers but clearly answering hatred with hatred only breeds more hatred and without someone ending the hate the cycle will continue into perpetuity. They bomb us 16 years ago so we got mad and bombed them, then they got mad and bombed us, so we got mad and bombed them and on and on.  

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

The US led and is leading the war on terror but their allies are right there with her, including Britain. Perhaps if those allies stopped participating and began calling out the US for her war crimes then things would begin to change. Like i said, lead by example. 

IDK man I dont have the answers but clearly answering hatred with hatred only breeds more hatred and without someone ending the hate the cycle will continue into perpetuity. They bomb us 16 years ago so we got mad and bombed them, then they got mad and bombed us, so we got mad and bombed them and on and on.  

 

 

I think that the U.S. is a very responsible actor on the world stage. There are exceptions like Bush jr and his invasion of Iraq that raises some eyebrows but generally i can't see any other way but to answer violence with violence. 

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Just now, Captain Risky said:

I think that the U.S. is a very responsible actor on the world stage. There are exceptions like Bush jr and his invasion of Iraq that raises some eyebrows but generally i can't see any other way but to answer violence with violence. 

Really? you think the Syria and Libya adventures are good things? Yemen? Why exactly are we in Syria again? Why did Gaddafi have to die? 

Further though what violence are we responding to? 9/11 was 16 years ago and today's attacks are honestly minor in scope when compared to any other violent crimes.  Is it proportionate? Is it worth creating 100 more people who hate the west because of the actions of a couple of nutjobs?  Does it make it OK for us to kill innocents just because they did? 

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Just now, Farmer77 said:

Really? you think the Syria and Libya adventures are good things? Yemen? Why exactly are we in Syria again? Why did Gaddafi have to die? 

Further though what violence are we responding to? 9/11 was 16 years ago and today's attacks are honestly minor in scope when compared to any other violent crimes.  Is it proportionate? Is it worth creating 100 more people who hate the west because of the actions of a couple of nutjobs?  Does it make it OK for us to kill innocents just because they did? 

No i don't think they are good things. Or killing innocents. But then again if both those dictators disappeared and were replaced by some form of democracy then i think it would be better. Of course, both failed cause the U.S. allies got greedy and stupid and backed the wrong guy's. Saudi Arabia and Turkey had a seperate agenda in Syria and Libya. The same agenda that seems to fuel those head cutting nut jobs in Syria. Try going to Syria and reasoning with them. If i was America id look at my friends first before changing policy. Thats my point. 

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