Westminster Terror attack, shootings

[ExpandMyMind]

15 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

I think that the U.S. is a very responsible actor on the world stage. There are exceptions like Bush jr and his invasion of Iraq that raises some eyebrows but generally i can't see any other way but to answer violence with violence. 

'The nationalist not only does not disapprove of the atrocities committed by his own side, but has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.'

I'm not even sure if you're American, but I don't think I've seen an instance where the above quote was more appropriate. The US has been a horrendous actor on the world stage. From South America to the Middle East and the rest of Asia. The body count is astronomical and the social destruction almost beyond belief. You say 'answer violence with violence'. That's exactly what the terrorists have done. That was the reason for 9/11.

I could never support in any way terrorism but we have to, as a society, be able to objectively look at the legitimate reasons why they hate the West. There is a clear cause and effect relationship and unless more people realise the real cause of all this terrorism and realise that something needs to be done at home first, it will never end.

[alibongo]

In my opinion, all religions are a bit nutty. They seem to be based on ancient writings rather than modern science.

Having said that, since Islam is predicted to overtake the world, why not adjust to that being the establishment  religion in all countries?

What is the difference between a non-existent prophet and a non-existent son of god?

Why not have Islam as the received religion in the UK and US? It is all superticious bull, ayway.

Who cares?

 

 

[ExpandMyMind]

23 minutes ago, alibongo said:

In my opinion, all religions are a bit nutty. They seem to be based on ancient writings rather than modern science.

Having said that, since Islam is predicted to overtake the world, why not adjust to that being the establishment  religion in all countries?

What is the difference between a non-existent prophet and a non-existent son of god?

Why not have Islam as the received religion in the UK and US? It is all superticious bull, ayway.

Who cares?

 

 

Because the expansion of mono theistic religions - any of them - should never be encouraged. Ever.

[Kismit]

1 hour ago, seeder said:

 

Better evidence of what exactly? Youve all seen the news that started this thread... some fanatic mowing down innocent people on a street and then stabbing a cop to death

How much more murder do we need to see?

The thing is none of us know what was actually going on in this guys head.

We assume based on past experience that we do know. However it actually isn't possible to understand the mind of the individual based on a few lines in a news story about him.

We jump from conclusion to conclusion and then wonder why the media won't give us full disclosure. They don't give us full disclosure because we jump to conclusions and that can cause more trouble for those people actively dealing with the fall out while we sit in our homes playing keyboard warriors,  (as it was put earlier).

If you want a solution to this problem and many similar ones, we need to see community/church/mosque leaders openly condemn the acts. We need to work with the upper echelon of thier community and get their support. Which we won't get by condeming all of them based on the acts of what amounts to a handfull of people.

[ExpandMyMind]

35 minutes ago, Kismit said:

 

If you want a solution to this problem and many similar ones, we need to see community/church/mosque leaders openly condemn the acts. We need to work with the upper echelon of thier community and get their support. Which we won't get by condeming all of them based on the acts of what amounts to a handfull of people.

That's the thing, I'm not sure people realise just how small a number it really is.

Quote

3. Even if all terrorist attacks were carried out by Muslims, you still could not associate terrorism with Islam: There have been 140,000 terror attacks committed worldwide since 1970. Even if Muslims carried out all of these attacks (which is an absurd assumption given the fact mentioned in my first point), those terrorists would represent less than 0.00009 percent of all Muslims. To put things into perspective, this means that you are more likely to be struck by lightening in your lifetime than a Muslim is likely to commit a terrorist attack during that same timespan.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/omar-alnatour/muslims-are-not-terrorist_b_8718000.html

[Kismit]

Yep a handfull in comparison.

[Unusual Tournament]

2 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

'The nationalist not only does not disapprove of the atrocities committed by his own side, but has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.'

I'm not even sure if you're American, but I don't think I've seen an instance where the above quote was more appropriate. The US has been a horrendous actor on the world stage. From South America to the Middle East and the rest of Asia. The body count is astronomical and the social destruction almost beyond belief. You say 'answer violence with violence'. That's exactly what the terrorists have done. That was the reason for 9/11.

I could never support in any way terrorism but we have to, as a society, be able to objectively look at the legitimate reasons why they hate the West. There is a clear cause and effect relationship and unless more people realise the real cause of all this terrorism and realise that something needs to be done at home first, it will never end.

Not American. Am Australian. The actions of America IMO should be judged fairly and not condemned cause some actions have been suspect. Sure terrible things were done in the name of American foreign policy but the sad fact is that the strong are always in the front and if America didn't act as world police man then some one else would have and there is no guarantee that another country with less accountability and checks and balances would have done a better job of stamping some sense of order. Is America using its position for its own selfish reasons? You betcha.  

I like to look at it as America being the best of the worse.  

[Essan]

Do we even know this guy was a muslim?

He was an a petty criminal from Kent - with past convictions for violent conduct - whose real name was Adrian Elms

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39373766

[Farmer77]

8 minutes ago, Essan said:

Do we even know this guy was a muslim?

He was an a petty criminal from Kent - with past convictions for violent conduct - whose real name was Adrian Elms

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39373766

Muslim extremist recruiting is just the same as any other fringe group like the neo nazis, they capitalize and prey upon young men who have lost their way in society and are trying to find a place to fit in and feel good about themselves. Christ Allah offers them a chance at redemption when society wont. 

[Herr Falukorv]

15 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Muslim extremist recruiting is just the same as any other fringe group like the neo nazis, they capitalize and prey upon young men who have lost their way in society and are trying to find a place to fit in and feel good about themselves. Christ Allah offers them a chance at redemption when society wont. 

he was 52  

[Farmer77]

1 minute ago, Herr Falukorv said:

he was 52  

LOL ok on damaged men......

but when did he convert ? 

Edited March 24, 2017 by Farmer77

[Saru]

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[Essan]

2 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

LOL ok on damaged men......

but when did he convert ? 

According to reports "recently"

[stevewinn]

4 hours ago, Essan said:

Do we even know this guy was a muslim?

He was an a petty criminal from Kent - with past convictions for violent conduct - whose real name was Adrian Elms

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39373766

With the information at hand was this man a terrorist or just a criminal. A string of offences and jail sentences for using a knife not once but twice, first in 2000 in a pub slashing a persons face - then comes out of jail and is back in court and jailed for stabbing a man in 2003.

Islamic state claiming he was one of their "soldiers" is a nonsense as well.

Its rather strange how these people who commit these acts say they do it in the name of religion, yet they don't live the strict lifestyle of a devout follower of the religion they claim these attacks are carried out in the name of, many of them are involved in drugs, drink and criminality prohibited under their strict teachings.

When it comes to the excuse this is pay back for the West's actions in the Middle East. - We have to remember more innocent Moslems in the world have died at the hands of Islamic terrorist groups and that's the irony of it all.

 

 

 

[seeder]

heres a a good breakdown of his history and times in jail and Saudi Arabia. PLUS you will see a photo of him

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/23/violent-extremist-dropped-polices-radar/

[Merc14]

10 hours ago, Kismit said:

The thing is none of us know what was actually going on in this guys head.

We assume based on past experience that we do know. However it actually isn't possible to understand the mind of the individual based on a few lines in a news story about him.

When someone blows a crowd of people up or drives his car into a group and then gets out and stabs as many as he can, is it necessary to understand his motivations before condemning the act? 

10 hours ago, Kismit said:

We jump from conclusion to conclusion and then wonder why the media won't give us full disclosure. They don't give us full disclosure because we jump to conclusions and that can cause more trouble for those people actively dealing with the fall out while we sit in our homes playing keyboard warriors,  (as it was put earlier).

When the media tries to conceal thing because they aren't politically correct then we jump to conclusions to try and fill in the blanks.  Knowing people that deal with this issue first hand the biggest problem they have is people afraid to report suspicious activity because they feel it is being racist or is profiling which is politically incorrect.     

10 hours ago, Kismit said:

If you want a solution to this problem and many similar ones, we need to see community/church/mosque leaders openly condemn the acts.

yes we do, this is a problem that needs to be solved within the group rather than from outside it.   Unfortunately just the opposite is happening isn't it?  Ask yourself a question, are you willing, as the leader of a local institution, to come forward and condemn and act of terror knowing that in all likelihood you will be killed for it? 

Quote

 We need to work with the upper echelon of thier community and get their support. Which we won't get by condeming all of them based on the acts of what amounts to a handfull of people.

I think that WE have gone very far out of our way to accommodate and maybe it is time for the people who want to abide by their own law and own customs to either go back to a country that runs by said laws or customs or give them up and assimilate to the laws and customs of the country they voluntarily settled in. 

[ExpandMyMind]

8 minutes ago, seeder said:

heres a a good breakdown of his history and times in jail and Saudi Arabia. PLUS you will see a photo of him

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/23/violent-extremist-dropped-polices-radar/

Quote

It is thought he may have then been radicalised while in jail, eventually leading to his involvement in terrorism. 

That does seem to be the MO, preying on vulnerable, mentally unstable men while they are at their weakest emotionally and mentally.

[Duke Wellington]

13 hours ago, odas said:

I do not agree with you on some points:

Immigration is ok. Tougher screening, once in the country a 10 year wait period for citizenship, no crim record for that time etc. That would help.

Although many many terrorists are recent converts and not immigrants.

I do not agree of a suni caliphat or shia or any. Why? What about people like me? Not a suni or shia or any domination. Just a muslim. There are more like me then you would think.

One way to help is not generelizing all muslims and islam. This is something you guys have to work on.

Hitler, Milosevic, Stalin, they are known by name. All those non muslim killers and massmurderes are known by name. But when it comes down to a muslim murdere then the MUSLIM word is in the front and the name is forgotten.

Try to work on that, could help.

We know there are different Muslim factions and the vast majority of Muslims are not killers. I dont think you have much to fear as regards people thinking the actions of some Muslims represent you all. Most of us are logical rational people who try to do the right thing so we dont indulge in the kind of mindless hysteria that could result in that outcome.

I understand peoples concerns too after watching both Germany and Russia go like that under Hitler and Stalin. But the world is more vigilant to prevent these things happening again following the dreadful loss of life in WW2.

The Western Hemisphere is liberal. We dont have Conservative regimes which send out the police of vice and virtue to arrest those engaging in immoral behaviour. One way of looking at how our societies are run is that we let people make their own mistakes in life instead. We dont play Big Brother. The law only allows intervention and criminalisation when other people or society are having their rights or interests violated.

So immigrants coming in need to ask themselves if they can live in a society like that. It needs to be our job to find that out not only to protect ourselves from terrorism but to help the immigrant find a country they can be happy in. They will see, witness and encounter behaviour in our countries which they see as immoral by religious standards. They will also encounter some racism despite our best efforts to prevent it.

The Muslim person (from whatever faction) needs to ask themselves if they can fit in with our society. We dont ask that you give up your religion or values but you do need to recognise that our way is different and be able to tolerate that.

[ExpandMyMind]

14 minutes ago, Merc14 said:

When someone blows a crowd of people up or drives his car into a group and then gets out and stabs as many as he can, is it necessary to understand his motivations before condemning the act? 

When the media tries to conceal thing because they aren't politically correct then we jump to conclusions to try and fill in the blanks.  Knowing people that deal with this issue first hand the biggest problem they have is people afraid to report suspicious activity because they feel it is being racist or is profiling which is politically incorrect.     

yes we do, this is a problem that needs to be solved within the group rather than from outside it.   Unfortunately just the opposite is happening isn't it?  Ask yourself a question, are you willing, as the leader of a local institution, to come forward and condemn and act of terror knowing that in all likelihood you will be killed for it? 

I think that WE have gone very far out of our way to accommodate and maybe it is time for the people who want to abide by their own law and own customs to either go back to a country that runs by said laws or customs or give them up and assimilate to the laws and customs of the country they voluntarily settled in. 

The opposite isn't happening at all. It was condemned by the British Muslim Council immediately. 

These islamist attacks are always condemned on a massive scale by pretty much all Muslim institutions. That we don't hear about it is the truly worrying part. 

[Sweetpumper]

Oh, good. It was condemned. It's all good now.

[Sweetpumper]

An Upstanding Citizen or Immigrant on Monday Doesn’t Decide to Become a Jihadi on Tuesday

“This is the beauty of this attack: it’s not about the everyday item, the inanimate object. It’s about the person driving it or using it. That’s why good counterterrorism isn’t reactive; it is preventative,” Gorka argued. “That’s why you have to find these people, use human intelligence. Here in the United States, we’ve taken the step of our travel moratorium to stop people coming from war zones who want to use these kinds of tactics against us. Now there will be the focus on all kinds of diversionary issues, not the fact that this individual was already on the radar screen of the security services a year ago.”

 

Gorka said there has “never been a case of an upstanding citizen or immigrant on Monday deciding on Tuesday to become a jihadi and killing his fellow citizens.”

“There’s always a progression. There’s always a digestion of jihadi ideology. There’s always some kind of statement of sympathy for the things that the bad guys are doing. That’s how we find them. That’s how we prevent the next attack,” he declared.

http://www.breitbart.com/radio/2017/03/23/gorka-upstanding-citizen-immigrant-monday-doesnt-decide-become-jihadi-tuesday/

 

[ExpandMyMind]

7 minutes ago, Sweetpumper said:

Oh, good. It was condemned. It's all good now.

I'm not sure what your point is? 

Edit - Lol Breitbart. I can't believe you just quoted Breitbart. That's as bad as Infowars.

Edited March 24, 2017 by ExpandMyMind

[Sweetpumper]

A Week of Terror and Diversity in Europe

Because diversity is our strength.

Masood’s victims were certainly diverse.  The men and women he ran over or pushed off Westminster Bridge included Brits, Americans, Romanians, Greeks, Chinese, South Koreans, Italians, Irish, Portuguese, Polish and French. That is the new form that diversity takes in the more multicultural cities.

The victims are diverse. The killers are Muslim.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/266208/week-terror-and-diversity-europe-daniel-greenfield

 

[Merc14]

51 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

The opposite isn't happening at all. It was condemned by the British Muslim Council immediately. 

These islamist attacks are always condemned on a massive scale by pretty much all Muslim institutions.

Yes but twitter was filled with praise for the man's actions and millions around the world cheered him as a hero.   The sad fact is these mass murderers are NOT condemned on nearly as massive a scale as they are praised and that is an Islamic problem, not a western one.  

Quote

That we don't hear about it is the truly worrying part. 

Oh please!!!!  Are you kidding me?   This is demonstrably false and easily proved with a simple Google search.   What is the worrying part is how deeply the stories of the cheering masses are buried! Anyone who has worked or is working in that part of the world will tell you the same thing but based on the news you'd think the entire Muslim world was condemning this act when in fact just the opposite is true.

My point is that this is NOT all our fault, it is also the fault of the people perpetrating terror in the name of their God.   Like it or not the religion of peace is at war with the west and if the majority of that unsaid religion do not agree with this, or with what is happening in the name of their religion, then THEY need to stop it because WE can not.  

Edited March 24, 2017 by Merc14

[ExpandMyMind]

15 minutes ago, Merc14 said:

Yes but twitter was filled with praise for the man's actions and millions around the world cheered him as a hero.   The sad fact is these mass murderers are NOT condemned on nearly as massive a scale as they are praised and that is an Islamic problem, not a western one.  

Oh please!!!!  Are you kidding me?   This is demonstrably false and easily proved with a simple Google search.   What is the worrying part is how deeply the stories of the cheering masses are buried! Anyone who has worked or is working in that part of the world will tell you the same thing but based on the news you'd think the entire Muslim world was condemning this act when in fact just the opposite is true.

My point is that this is NOT all our fault, it is also the fault of the people perpetrating terror in the name of their God.   Like it or not the religion of peace is at war with the west and if the majority of that unsaid religion do not agree with this, or with what is happening in the name of their religion, then THEY need to stop it because WE can not.  

The difference here merc is that the people supporting these attacks, forgetting the fact that we're actually at war with many of their brethren and have been killing their civilians in far greater numbers for far longer, are individuals and Islamic fundamentalist organisations. In other words they are entirely not representative of Islam or Muslims. On the other hand, those who condemn the attacks are massive institutions and completely representative of Islam and Muslims. You can't hold the whole system responsible for a tiny minority of cheering keyboard warriors. And if you don't believe it's a minority then that's down to nothing more than your own perception of the situation and is certainly not able to be demonstrated as true.

You seem to believe that all Muslims have a duty to hit Twitter to condemn the acts of a tiny number of nutjobs. They don't. At all. The same as I don't have a duty to apologise for all white racists because I'm white, all Christians don't have a duty to apologise for or condemn the IRA or abortion clinic bombers, or any number of similar situations. Surely you can see that? By requiring them to do so you are essentially holding them in some way responsible. Which is ridiculous.