Opening gambits in EU / UK exit negotiations;

[stevewinn]

I notice on Tuesday gone in Parliament they the remain MP's tried again with an amendment to the EU Withdrawal Bill in the Commons. To remain in the single market and customs union. They lost again by 322 to 99,  Labour abstained. Labour really are a joke. But it should be no surprise it was the same with Clause 1 of the EU Withdrawal Bill, the clause which repeals the 1972 European Communities Act to confirm our exit in UK law, the Commons passed this clause by 318-68, with most Labour MPs abstaining. I think im right in saying tonight MP's will be voting on the Trade Bill.

Also worth noting, French and German economists publish eurozone reform plan, calling on governments to take action. another German-Franco stitch up. - those countries in the Euro continue to be under the yoke of the great powers of Europe. But some think EU membership has addressed that and they sit at the table as equals. what fools they are. Germany for years as and continues to break eurozone rules by running a surplus in breach of the treaty. totally unbalancing the Eurozone. exploiting the Euro, and the fact it helps keep the German economy 10% under valued than it should be. France is unable to restrain its neighbour so attempts reforms to help economic divergence, but how long will others in the Euro put up with it? more power and wealth to Germany, with the risk shared between the rest. Lets hope Brexit doesn't rock the boat.

Is it any coincidence that since its become clearer that the EU will fare far worse than the UK under a No-Deal scenario the EU is on a charm offensive, from "our heart remains open" - to Britain can change its mind and remain, - to Britain can rejoin after it leaves - to the French President visit to the UK - If the UK government took this grovelling approach they'd be slaughtered in the press. you could imagine the headlines. Theresa May weak, realisation of Brexit consequences sees UK desperate. But no, because its the EU silence from the BBC etc.. and the remoaners.

No-Deal all the way. the way the EU has conducted itself during these negotiations. it should deserve nothing less.

 

 

 

 

[Grey Area]

2 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

The topic of trade agreements came up here recently. There are over 190 countries in the world. Over the past 45 years the UK has developed and made trade agreements with virtually every country in the world through the EU (except for those in the EU).

No, it hasn't.  The EU certainly does not have trade agreements with anything close to every country in the world.  In fact it doesn't even have trade agreements with many of the most developed countries in world, for example:

Quote

The EU Trade commission website

The EU and Australia ended preparatory work in April 2017 for potential trade negotiations. The European Commission has now recommended that the EU begin negotiations for a trade agreement with Australia.

Source

Trading with a country is not the same as having a 'trade agreement'. 

2 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

The most expedient way to do this is just to take the existing agreements it has through the EU with over 150 countries and replace the the term 'EU' with 'UK'.

Yes and then move on to forge trade agreements with other countries that don't have agreements with the EU, without having to wait for 26 other nations to sign off and for the slow motion negotiators to do their bit.

There is nothing wrong with keeping the bits of EU policy that works is there?  Otherwise we might have to have a rather awkward conversation with Jean Claude about how there is already a United States in the world.

2 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

But that is to carry on as before and defeats the purpose of Brexit.

What is this tunnel vision I see again and again?  that was only one aspect of Brexit, why do remainers insist on focusing on one aspect and then claim that Brexit is invalid based on that single issue?

2 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

I could care less as it won't effect me or my family at all.

Mmmmm

3 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

We will have to develop our southern ports to facilitate exports directly to the continent which is infinitely cheaper than road-freighting them across the UK (who will now likely be taxing Irish goods in transit after Brexit anyway). I think we will also benefit from spin-offs as international companies start to look to Ireland as an alternative base to the UK for doing business inside the EU. 

Win Win, so it won't effect you or your family, it will possibly create Irish jobs and encourage growth in ports and may even attract new business to Ireland....  Why are you always complaining????

3 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

And yesterday in the EU Parliamentary chamber Nigel Farage, loudly supported by his UKIP backing chorus, tried to belittle Ireland and our Taoiseach (Prime Minister) Leo Varadkar by claiming we are just pawns in the EU's anti-Breixit campaign and that the EU uses and abuses little countries like Ireland as it likes.

You really don't think that the EU hasn't used Ireland as a tool to delay, stall and generally complicate the EU negotiations?  They point blank refused to carry out any discussions over Brexit until the UK/Ireland border situation was sorted, why was that?  While the issue is important, I don't believe it would have weakened anyone's position to move onto other things while a position was sorted on either side internally.  That was playground tactics, and Ireland was the tool.

But on a more serious note, remember your pride in Nationhood, that small Island of only 4 million, punching above it's weight as because of the EU.  Remember that famous Irish neutrality when Ireland has to send troops to new EU army to further EU interests on it's more unstable borders.  I fear the time for sitting on the fence is coming to an end, the winds are blowing, its just a question of which side you are going to fall on.

[RoofGardener]

3 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

.... ..following on with the Soros influence over the EU; below is the complete list of affiliates of Soros in the EU Parliament (alphabetic, with Nationality and EU Group to which they belong) as published by his own organisation and foundation. 

No.

They are not "affiliated". The Open Society Foundation merely did an analysis of MEP's (presumably through voting patterns, speeches etc) to see whether their philosophy aligned to some degree with that of the Soros Foundation. You might describe them as "fellow travellers", but they are NOT "affiliated", which would imply some degree of control by - or approval of - the Soros Foundation itself, which is NOT substantiated by the report.

Edited January 18, 2018 by RoofGardener

[stevewinn]

BBC News website.

 

Quote

 

Donald Tusk: EU's 'heart still open to UK' over Brexit

The UK would be welcome to stay in the EU if it changed its mind about Brexit, Donald Tusk has suggested.

The European Council President told MEPs that the UK would leave the bloc unless it had a "change of heart".

"We haven't had a change of heart. Our hearts are still open for you."

 

I love the comments on the BBC article. (highest rated)

 

[Ozymandias]

2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

No.

They are not "affiliated". The Open Society Foundation merely did an analysis of MEP's (presumably through voting patterns, speeches etc) to see whether their philosophy aligned to some degree with that of the Soros Foundation. You might describe them as "fellow travellers", but they are NOT "affiliated", which would imply some degree of control by - or approval of - the Soros Foundation itself, which is NOT substantiated by the report.

I never said they were affiliated!! That was Keithisco's paranoid attempt at a conspiracy theory. It was HE who said they were affiliated to Soros in the European Parliament.  

[RoofGardener]

1 minute ago, Ozymandias said:

I never said they were affiliated!! That was Keithisco's paranoid attempt at a conspiracy theory. It was HE who said they were affiliated to Soros in the European Parliament.  

Oh gosh.. you are quite correct. My apologies. I mis-read the quotation tags. 

[Ozymandias]

3 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Oh gosh.. you are quite correct. My apologies. I mis-read the quotation tags. 

Apology accepted. I suppose that could happen to any of us.

[Ozymandias]

3 hours ago, Grey Area said:

You really don't think that the EU hasn't used Ireland as a tool to delay, stall and generally complicate the EU negotiations?  They point blank refused to carry out any discussions over Brexit until the UK/Ireland border situation was sorted, why was that?  .

Elementary, my dear Watson! Because it is the only land border between the EU and the UK, and because it is particularly sensitive in regards to the permanent peace that derives from the Good Friday Agreement.

[Ozymandias]

3 hours ago, Grey Area said:

No, it hasn't.  The EU certainly does not have trade agreements with anything close to every country in the world.  In fact it doesn't even have trade agreements with many of the most developed countries in world, for example: [Australia]

 

The EU is Australia's third largest trading partner. Trade and 'Free Trade' are not the same thing. There is a trade agreement but not a Free Trade one.

Edited January 18, 2018 by Ozymandias

[keithisco]

6 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

Some conspiracy theory!! I note that this list includes the following Conservatives:

Timothy Kirkhope - Conservative MEP and Chairman of the  EU Parliaments Conservative & Reformists group and of the Conservatives Friends of Israel.  

Syed Kamall - Conservative MEP and Co-Chairman of the EU Parliaments Conservative & Reformists group and plays a prominent role on the EU's Economic, Monetary, Legal and International Trade committees!!

Anthea McIntyre - Deputy Chaiman of the Conservative Party.

Kay Swinburne - Conservative MEP and Vice-Chair of the EU Committee on Economic & Monetary Affairs!!!

Sajjid Karim - Conservative MEP Spokesperson in the EU Parliament on Legal Affairs, WTO, South Asian Trade and EU-India Trade.

The topic of trade agreements came up here recently. There are over 190 countries in the world. Over the past 45 years the UK has developed and made trade agreements with virtually every country in the world through the EU (except for those in the EU). What now is proposed is that it should renegotiate its trade arrangements with the EU and, following that, with the non-EU or 'third countries' of the world. That is a gargantuan task. The most expedient way to do this is just to take the existing agreements it has through the EU with over 150 countries and replace the the term 'EU' with 'UK'. But that is to carry on as before and defeats the purpose of Brexit. Therefore ALL  existing trade agreements, 150 plus, must be renegotiated from scratch and every single country will want better terms than they already have with the UK through the EU. As I said before, good luck with that! I can't see any of them accepting worse terms. 

I know I am opposed to Brexit but, on a personal level, I am not a UK citizen and I could care less as it won't effect me or my family at all. I realize that it will adversely effect Ireland but it will be the making of us also. It will force us to dramatically readjust our economic relationship with the UK. We will have to develop our southern ports to facilitate exports directly to the continent which is infinitely cheaper than road-freighting them across the UK (who will now likely be taxing Irish goods in transit after Brexit anyway). I think we will also benefit from spin-offs as international companies start to look to Ireland as an alternative base to the UK for doing business inside the EU. 

And yesterday in the EU Parliamentary chamber Nigel Farage, loudly supported by his UKIP backing chorus, tried to belittle Ireland and our Taoiseach (Prime Minister) Leo Varadkar by claiming we are just pawns in the EU's anti-Breixit campaign and that the EU uses and abuses little countries like Ireland as it likes. Varadkar replied that around the EU table a country like Ireland of only four million people, less of a population than many European cities, had the same rights and respect as any other EU country, many of them much bigger. Of course, that didn't stop Nigel and his UKIP colleagues scoffing his Irish beef filet de bourgogne Irlandais à la Guinness later in the evening and toasting Varadkar's birthday with champagne! Nor will their professed principled detestation of the EU prevent them picking up their EU salaries and pensions. After all, when it comes to money and self-interest they are past masters and the EU will be well rid of them even if it costs them the paying of those very pensions.  

 

 

I dont believe I referred to any of these names' Political Affiliations in their home Nations? I posted the list for information but I should really have posted the actual title of the Soros foundation document...here you go

"Reliable allies in the European Parliament(2014 – 2019)"

You are right the title does not use the word "affiliates" so feel free to use any word you like, even "Reliable Allies"

Oh, and to be absolutely clear here is the link to the actual document

[Ozymandias]

8 minutes ago, keithisco said:

I dont believe I referred to any of these names' Political Affiliations in their home Nations? I posted the list for information but I should really have posted the actual title of the Soros foundation document...here you go

"Reliable allies in the European Parliament(2014 – 2019)"

You are right the title does not use the word "affiliates" so feel free to use any word you like, even "Reliable Allies"

Oh, and to be absolutely clear here is the link to the actual document

So, what's changed? You still imply Soros exerts undue power over 500 million people through those whose names are listed. Whether you want to call them 'affiliates' or 'reliable allies', the list still contains British Conservative Party members, all of whom play prominent and influential roles in the EU and its functioning.

[keithisco]

7 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

The topic of trade agreements came up here recently. There are over 190 countries in the world. Over the past 45 years the UK has developed and made trade agreements with virtually every country in the world through the EU (except for those in the EU). What now is proposed is that it should renegotiate its trade arrangements with the EU and, following that, with the non-EU or 'third countries' of the world. That is a gargantuan task. The most expedient way to do this is just to take the existing agreements it has through the EU with over 150 countries and replace the the term 'EU' with 'UK'. But that is to carry on as before and defeats the purpose of Brexit. Therefore ALL  existing trade agreements, 150 plus, must be renegotiated from scratch and every single country will want better terms than they already have with the UK through the EU. As I said before, good luck with that! I can't see any of them accepting worse terms. 

 

You seem to be a little "light" on producing actual facts and data sources, let me help you;

The EU has 28 Free Trade Arrangements in place all other trading is currently under WTO rules because none of the remaining arrangements have been fully signed and as of today are not in force.

The UK trades under WTO rules with the rest of the world and does not need EU approval to do so.

[keithisco]

1 minute ago, Ozymandias said:

So, what's changed? You still imply Soros exerts undue power over 500 million people through those whose names are listed. Whether you want to call them 'affiliates' or 'reliable allies', the list still contains British Conservative Party members, all of whom play prominent and influential roles in the EU and its functioning.

So what? I did not refer to Conservatives, Labour, Liberals or indeed any other political party-it is you that seems to think that there is some additional significance to "Reliable Allies" being Conservatives.

[Ozymandias]

See next post ....

Edited January 20, 2018 by Ozymandias

[Ozymandias]

On 18/01/2018 at 7:51 PM, keithisco said:

So what? I did not refer to Conservatives, Labour, Liberals or indeed any other political party-it is you that seems to think that there is some additional significance to "Reliable Allies" being Conservatives.

So what, indeed! So why post the list in the first place? What was your point in posting up a list of what you claimed were Soros affiliates in the EU?

Edited January 20, 2018 by Ozymandias

[keithisco]

9 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

So what, indeed! So why post the list in the first place? What was your point in posting up a list of what you claimed were Soros affiliates in the EU?

Did I not correct that to "Reliable Allies" in post#1136? Let me look, oh, YES I did. Not that there is anything other than a semantic difference in the characterisation of these MEP's

As to the reason for posting the SOURCE list (something you do not appear to do) it was to add some facts to Vlad the Mighty Post#1120 re: Soros influence in the EU. 

For those nations not Cuccolded to the EU, such as UK it is important to understand just who is behind the scenes pushing a personal agenda, and those "Reliable Allies" giving succour to this wholly undemocratic interference.

So there you have it, as a nation, Eire is fully subsumed into what has become the EU Theocracy and would rather turn a blind eye to inappropriate interference (and seemingly so would the citizens of Eire)  whereas others, who have not bought into the propaganda prefer to expose the lies and deceit behind the "Throne" of the EU Commission dictatorship.

[stevewinn]

 

[Unusual Tournament]

12 hours ago, stevewinn said:

 

thank god there's no corruption in Great Britain.  

[stevewinn]

8 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

thank god there's no corruption in Great Britain.  

unusual praise from yourself.

Same arguments. Tony Benn MP. speaking 1975.

Many years later an in his 80's

Well, we done it Tony, its just a shame you never lived to see Brexit.

Edited January 21, 2018 by stevewinn

[stevewinn]

Who was right? these speeches and debates from 1975 and 1991. We've had the fullness of time to see who was right and wrong. What side of History are you on today?

 

[bee]

 

I've just stumbled across this information and the warning sirens are going off.......

From what I've heard about the Trans Pacific Partnership this could be a huge betrayal regarding Brexit -

where one trade straight jacket replaces another one.... and corporations have legal powers over the laws of sovereign
nations..... (sounds familiar..?) I haven't researched it all (the TPP) in any depth but like the Trans Atlantic Trade and
Investment Partnership (TTIP) I think it's thought of as a big move towards Globalization and the One World Economy
and currency thing --- which would form the economic bedrock of the (New World Order) totalitarian future that many
politicians are secretly working towards -- 

The first thing Trump did when he became President... on the first day... was to cancel America being in the TPP group -
because he didn't think it was in the best interests of the US --- job creation or industry -- of course because it was Trump
and the Globalists have an Anti Trump campaign going full speed THAT gets brushed aside by people who were against
TPP and TTIP... because it doesn't fit in with Anti Trump '''' narrative'''' that they are indoctrinated into -- but anyway... 

Bernie Sanders (who campaigned to become the Democrat Presidential Candidate) was also against America being
part of the TPP trade agreement -- come to think of it perhaps that's a big reason why '''they''' made sure he didn't
become the Democrat Candidate and Clinton was earmarked for the job --
but that's another story and I digress --

this is a random choice of article bringing up the subject of the UK and the TPP---

How real the possibility is I've no idea - but .......

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-tpp-uk-government-join-economy-eu-leave-liam-fox-a8139231.html

 

Quote

Britain is exploring the possibility of joining a trans-Pacific trade bloc after

 Brexit in a bid to find alternative markets for exports that currently go to Europe, it has emerged.

Ministers believe that membership of the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) could be part of the process of forging new trade deals when Britain leaves the EU.

The unusual move – all 11 of the group’s current members have borders on the Pacific Ocean or South China Sea – could be an alternative to signing separate, bilateral agreements with TPP countries.

 

   

 

 

Edited January 22, 2018 by bee

[Truthseeker007]

On ‎1‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 4:19 PM, Emma_Acid said:

Insults is all they have. "Remoaners", "traitors" etc. There isn't a good argument for Brexit other than "getting control of our courts" (and of course as soon as we actually did that and gave a vote on the terms of leaving to our parliament the Brexitiers were up in arms - as if they didn't want anyone else to have a say) and getting our blue passports "back".

I really don't know much about this so out of curiosity what is a Brexitier?

[Space Commander Travis]

10 hours ago, Truthseeker007 said:

I really don't know much about this so out of curiosity what is a Brexitier?

It's one who's in favour of Brexit, i.e. the departure from the European Union. 

[Ozymandias]

11 hours ago, Truthseeker007 said:

I really don't know much about this so out of curiosity what is a Brexitier?

A Brexiteer is a person who supports the idea that the UK should leave the EU (the European Union).

Alternatively, it is a person who sheds a tear every morning at breakfast for the loss of the UK's greatness and who has an emotional need to 'make Britain great again'. Oh, hang on, that might be a Breakfasteer!! 

Bregets anyone?

[RAyMO]

11 hours ago, bee said:

I haven't researched it all (the TPP)

Bee have a look at dispute resolution mechanisms

Edited January 23, 2018 by RAyMO