Opening gambits in EU / UK exit negotiations;

[Black Monk]

1 minute ago, hetrodoxly said:

I've searched the BBC website and Sky and guess what no mention of it.

Strange that...

[hetrodoxly]

Looks good.

https://briefingsforbrexit.com/

[Unusual Tournament]

another brexit concession from PM May...

May accepted that “when participating in EU agencies the UK will respect the remit of the European Court of Justice”.

http://theconversation.com/theresa-may-just-made-a-major-brexit-concession-in-munich-92047

 

[Space Commander Travis]

ha ha! See what they've done. "Humiliating conecession in Munich". I suppose she's just come back from meeting the German Chancellor. Will she be waving a piece of paper? 

What does “when participating in EU agencies " mean? It;'s a rather long story and looks like it would be rather tedious to read in its entirety. It seems to mean that the UK would be prepared to continue cooperating with EU agencies such Europol and Eurojust. (And presumably Minitru and Miniluv.) Well, if you;re going to participate in such Orwellian sounding institutions, you'd presumably cooperate with their rules and methods of operation, wouldn't you? That'd only be a humiliating concession if you believed that the whole raison d'être of the whole Brexit process was to be as uncooperative and obstructionist as possible. And that, as we know of course, is the EU's role. 

[bee]

9 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

Looks good.

https://briefingsforbrexit.com/

 

Hey @stevewinn........ you should write an article(s) for the new Brexit web site.....  (in addition to your top notch UM posts)
ONLY in addition because we don't want to lose you...  
 

if you are an academic who wishes to contribute well-argued pieces in support of Brexit, or are outside a university but able to contribute at an equivalent standard, please contact us via the contact page. 

[hetrodoxly]

How Brexit can help us tackle disadvantage.

The easy availability of cheap, hard-working and skilled workers from across the European Union has allowed UK policymakers and employers to neglect the weakness of vocational education, at all levels. The Government’s approach – apprenticeships, ‘participation’, lifelong learning, BTECs – is lacklustre and incoherent. As long as free movement exists there is little incentive to build a national consensus to take inequality of opportunity seriously, and in addressing it simultaneously tackle our slow pace of automation, which is inhibiting both innovation and productivity. Brexit is our opportunity to do all of this.

https://briefingsforbrexit.com/how-brexit-can-help-us-tackle-disadvantage/

[stevewinn]

9 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

another brexit concession from PM May...

May accepted that “when participating in EU agencies the UK will respect the remit of the European Court of Justice”.

http://theconversation.com/theresa-may-just-made-a-major-brexit-concession-in-munich-92047

 

So the UK wants to continue to help keep Europe safe with access to the UK's world leading security and intelligence gathering service, the UK regardless of Brexit offers continued co-operation on this matter because the UK values the lives of fellow Europeans above that of petty EU politics. Its a shame the same cannot be said about the EU commission.The UK wants absolutely no-part of security or defence of the continent to be part of the negotiations. that's why the British Prime Minister has bypassed, - talked over the heads of the EU Commission and directly addressed our allies in Europe to reassure them that the UK is not playing games with the lives of their citizens. - Now personally, with the EU Commission trying to use it as a political tool in the negotiations - as they have used the Irish border, I see the actions of the EU Commission as a slap in the face, - and that's why i'd favour retracting that offer, but then again, we are taking about countless lives that could be lost as a result, and the UK is not bitter as is the Commission, we're simply better, - and the cold hard fact is, as much as its a slap in the face, the UK once again displays that very British characteristic of always doing the right thing even when its not the easiest.

As the negotiations unfold I'm finding the UK's approach preferable to the EU's dictatorial arrogance. and the two approaches will be noted around the world, The UK team do at least seem to be trying to find a good solution, the EU team seem to be trying to protect their egos and justify their unelected positions, putting the EU project above the interest of the people it represents.

When it comes to the point in the article about Mays Concession, Well for the record i have, and i think most people would have no problem whatsoever if the UK court takes into account EJC rulings on matters of justice and security, one of the agencies mentioned is Europol, all it means is UK judges will take into account the the remit of the ECJ when in the future an EU member state for example issues a European arrest warrant. This is something the UK currently does and has done with many countries globally as witnessed with our participation in Interpol. - whenever the UK extradites a foreign National back to their country of origin the UK courts and judges take into consideration the decision made by the judiciary of that country, now it wont be UK law they are considering or judging on and it will be the same with the ECJ, So this arrangement will be vice versa, just as the British courts take into account the ECJ, the ECJ will also take into account British Law. does this mean the EU have made a major concession as well? -  quite how this story is spun the way it is, is beyond me. no wonder they have a message at the bottom asking for donations. apparently a £20 Gift/Monthly, helps deliver knowledge-based, ethical journalism. if their article is anything to go by i wouldnt even donate 2pence, never mind £20.

It seems a lot of EU criminals flee to the UK, it also shows the ability of the British security services in being able to track down and deport those wanted back to the EU. the figures do seem a bit lopsided.

 

 

[Unusual Tournament]

A deal that keeps us safe:

hey steve, you’re not suggesting that the UK does more than the EU concerning the European Arrest Warrant system? mate there are 60 million people in the UK and 420 million in the other EU countries. on a proportional basis looks even to me. If you feel ripped off then get more criminals and stop playing nice with bad guys. 

Edited February 21, 2018 by Captain Risky

[Space Commander Travis]

11 hours ago, stevewinn said:

 

 

 

DExEUgov? That's snappy. 

[Space Commander Travis]

Surely "Brexit Department" or "BrexDep" or something. 

[stevewinn]

The EU Commission released slides - in response to Her Majestys Govt Brexit position, they (EU) say such an approach would be "not compatible with the principles" set out in the EU's own guidelines and posed a risk to the "proper functioning" of its single market. They then say the UK's position is not clear. well if that's the case how do they know what's "not compatible" This constant line from the EU about the UK position not clear, or needs more explanation is a deliberate tactic by the EU to make it look like the British Govt is all at sea, the EU have then backed this up with 'leaks'

And yet the Remainers and the Remain media have fell for this tactic by the EU, by constantly repeating it, seemingly forgetting the official speeches by the British Govt, such as the Lancaster House speech, or the many select committees, as one EU official stated we can smply sit back and let the British Media do our work for us, Its the same with the German Embassy in the UK, the Ambassador (wrongly) reported back to Berlin that the mood in the UK was for Remain to win any referendum and as such the Germans then enforced a policy of not conceding anything to David Cameron's re-negotiated aims. (pre-referendum) the famous "He went to Europe asking for nothing and came back with even less" This miscalculation by the Germans and EU left a red faced British Prime Minister to return to the UK empty handed. The British people was watching carefully and the its clear this approach, the EU's sheer arrogance played a part in Cameron loosing the Referendum.

But back to the EU commission and their constant "the UK's position is not clear" Well lets remind them what the UK's position is. Its.

• Leave the Single Market
• Leave the Customs Union
• Leave the European Courts of Justice
• Regain control over Agricultural policy
• Regain control of our Fishing Waters
• Regain full control of Immigration/Borders
• No more Payments (Money) to EU
• No Transition Period or on going payments
• Negotate a Freetrade deal or revert to WTO rules
• UK reimbursed for Share of EU assets we contributed to over the years
• British Citizens living in the EU and EU Citizens in the UK to be treated equally.

If they haven't got the message yet then its time to Leave 29th March 2019. and turn the Money taps off. that's the membership fee, and any other contributions, including the stopping of welfare Benefits being paid overseas to non-UK citizens. - Its been explained the UK has no legal obligation whatsoever to pay a penny piece after 29th March 2019 as set down in the Lisbon Treaty, / Article 50.

The EU's own research department as stated our EU membership over all them years as boosted our GDP by 1%. Things to remember, over 90% of the UK economy is here within the UK. only 11% of British businesses trade Globally. of that figure not even 4% trade with the EU. We pay a Gross £19.2Billion in membership fees. its not a free trade when your paying that sort of money, and to run a deficit, also we have VAT of which over £7Billion is collected by the UK Revenue&Customs on behalf of the EU in the form of tariffs charged on goods imported from outside the EU Customs Union. the UK keeps 20% of this figure while the EU receives the remaining 80%. The UK outside of the EU would see this extra money enter the treasury for spending here in the UK. The latest figures show us if we trade with the EU on WTO terms, the UK Treasury would collect about £16bn in tariff revenue on EU exports to us, giving plenty of scope to compensate. Meanwhile the rest of the EU would collect just £6bn on our exports to them. All of that money of course would go to the EU, not to member states governments.

Remember the figure of 1% our membership of the EU benefits our economy by just 1%, well its estimated alone that when the UK regains control of its agricultural and Fisheries policy this would benefit the UK economy by 1% and that's just one change in policy area.  imagine other possibilities, such as being free to fix and levy our own import taxes as our economy needs and can benefit most.

Why isn't the British Government whose policy it is to leave the EU taking to the airwaves and explaining this, pursuing it with the same vigour and determination like they do with other govt policies. I believe it would kill the Remainers argument dead. - but then for any Government to admit it would raise questions here at home as to why we remained for so long or joined in the first place which then opens another can of worms domestically.

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by stevewinn

[keithisco]

It is often difficult in the UK to find any reporting on other EU nations "take" on the Brexit negotiations. I came upon this from inside the German Bundestag yesterday:

Quote

 

AfD co-founder Alice Weidel also had a lot to say during the session, including her view that Merkel is trying to punish the UK for voting to leave the European Union.

“The EU wants to make an example of Great Britain, a punishment beyond any economic or political reason. This is not how one treats a European partner,” Weidel said. “Now Brussels, Paris, and Berlin are afraid that others could follow, that other states in Europe could take back their sovereignty.”

She went on to accuse the European Commission of “planning to restrict Britain’s access to the single market even during the transition period.” Such a plan against Germany’s biggest trading partner in the EU amounts to “taking free trade and competition as a hostage and making a failed EU ideology,” Weidel said.

“The good trading relationship with Great Britain and the rest of the continent have to be maintained – otherwise Europe will be at a disadvantage in global trade.” Merkel appeared to be less offended by Weidel’s comments, as she at least remained inside parliament while the AfD leader was speaking.

 

Further proof, if it was needed, that the negotiations are just a sham and a waste of UK Political effort. It is becoming clear that the much vaunted "Unity" of the 27 is a thinly veiled effort to disguise the increasing dis-unity amongst the EU27 (arguing behind closed doors) with the Commission and in particular the Visegrad 4 who are facing EU sanctions by an increasingly autocratic EU

[Ozymandias]

45 minutes ago, keithisco said:

It is often difficult in the UK to find any reporting on other EU nations "take" on the Brexit negotiations. I came upon this from inside the German Bundestag yesterday:

Further proof, if it was needed, that the negotiations are just a sham and a waste of UK Political effort. It is becoming clear that the much vaunted "Unity" of the 27 is a thinly veiled effort to disguise the increasing dis-unity amongst the EU27 (arguing behind closed doors) with the Commission and in particular the Visegrad 4 who are facing EU sanctions by an increasingly autocratic EU

Alice Weidel is the cofounder of the extreme right wing Alternative for Germany (AfD) party. She's a Goldman Sachs economist who is anti-Muslim and anti-immigration. She accuses the German navy of human trafficking because it rescued distressed refugees across the Mediterranean into Europe. 

Quoting one of her anti-Merkel anti-EU diatribes in the German Parliament as 'proof' of the sinister intent of the EU is like quoting what Hitler or Goebbels might say as proof that the Jews are the root of all evil.

Sure, if Weidel or Hitler say it, it MUST be true.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Ozymandias

[Unusual Tournament]

38 minutes ago, keithisco said:

Further proof, if it was needed, that the negotiations are just a sham and a waste of UK Political effort. It is becoming clear that the much vaunted "Unity" of the 27 is a thinly veiled effort to disguise the increasing dis-unity amongst the EU27 (arguing behind closed doors) with the Commission and in particular the Visegrad 4 who are facing EU sanctions by an increasingly autocratic EU

correct, the negotiations are a sham. they serve only to please the remainers. more of a 'look we tried.' no intelligent people could be so stupid as to think that a successful economic and political grouping will cut its own throat by offering a bespoke agreement. the only common position held by the EU and May government is hard brexit. the rest is just being nice for the sake of it. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-43175201

Donald Tusk: UK Brexit plans 'pure illusion'

[keithisco]

1 minute ago, Ozymandias said:

Alice Weidel is the cofounder of the extreme right wing Alternative for Germany (AfD) party. She's a Goldman Sachs economist who is anti-Muslim and anti-immigration. She accuses the German navy of human trafficking because it rescued distressed refugees across the Mediterranean into Europe. 

Quoting one of her anti-Merkel anti-EU diatribes in the German Parliament as proof of the sinister intent of the EU is like quoting what Hitler or Goebbels might say as proof that the Jews are the root of all evil.

Sure, if Weidel or Hitler say it, it MUST be true.

Godwinism...pure and simple!

She has a PhD in economics, worked for Goldman Sachs and Allianz Global Investors, and lived in China for six years. She even speaks conversational Chinese. Oh... and to maintain your Godwinism narrative, she is also a self-proclaimed Lesbian with a Swiss partner... how does that feed into your characterisation of her as being "Hitleresque"? 

[Ozymandias]

1 hour ago, keithisco said:

Godwinism...pure and simple!

She has a PhD in economics, worked for Goldman Sachs and Allianz Global Investors, and lived in China for six years. She even speaks conversational Chinese. Oh... and to maintain your Godwinism narrative, she is also a self-proclaimed Lesbian with a Swiss partner... how does that feed into your characterisation of her as being "Hitleresque"? 

My post had nothing to do with characterising anybody. I  have a friend and colleague who is a German, a PhD, a homosexual, a multilinguist, and well travelled. He is nothing like Hitler, or Weidel.

My post had everything to do with characterising your ridiculous use of what constitutes evidence of proof. Quoting Weidel's pronouncements as proof of the EU's ill intent to the UK is like quoting Hitler's rantings as proof of an international Jewish conspiracy against Germany. It is not proof of anything at all, it is just their opinion. 

[Black Monk]

I'd definitely vote for AfD if I was German.

[stevewinn]

1 hour ago, keithisco said:

It is often difficult in the UK to find any reporting on other EU nations "take" on the Brexit negotiations. I came upon this from inside the German Bundestag yesterday:

Further proof, if it was needed, that the negotiations are just a sham and a waste of UK Political effort. It is becoming clear that the much vaunted "Unity" of the 27 is a thinly veiled effort to disguise the increasing dis-unity amongst the EU27 (arguing behind closed doors) with the Commission and in particular the Visegrad 4 who are facing EU sanctions by an increasingly autocratic EU

The cracks are there for all to see, its just a shame one has to go beyond the British media to see it reported, and when i say beyond the British Media i mean simply listening to Parliamentary debates & speeches. including those in EU member countries. the Nordic countries especially who're more like-minded (with the UK) and want to pursue a trade agreement.

Its clear throughout the EU's approach is to portray itself as strong stable and in charge. usually in life if one as to constantly portray ones self as such it usually means the opposite is true.

When Brexit is broken down and the stated aims of the UK are explained its all rather simple. Yet the negotiations are designed to make it look all far, far too complicated. - a long dragged out the process, all the while employing Soft-power. Ask Ukraine what happens when the EU get involved in another countries internal politics. 

But it can be summed up perfectly The United Kingdom through the democratic process as decided to leave a treaty, a Political Union, and all the UK is seeking on its departure after 43 years as a NET contributor is a mutually beneficial Free/trade agreement and that's it in a nut shell, For the British part we've even wished them well in their future endeavour to create the Federal Europe they desire.

When it comes to the EU, they fear competition. they currently don't have any FTA's agreed or implemented with any of the worlds top ten economies. Yet it finds it easy, to offer South Korea, Chile, Mexico or South Africa FTS's without being part of the political Union. I say easy it took 7 years to offer and conclude a FTA with South Korea and 11 years with Chile.

Next month is 12 months before we leave the United Kingdom Govt needs to put in place all that is needed for Brexit. Those who need to implement any changes are a very small minority less than 4% of the 11% of British Business who trade with the EU and any company worth their salt will have planned in advance. Its what companies do annually. - the Fact the UK already has currency and VAT border with the likes of R.O.Ireland and for that matter the rest of the EU shows how much of a non-issue the border with Europe is, When it comes to the Irish border, im afraid 0.1% of N.Irish trade with the R.O.I as a percentage of UK GDP is not going to allow for a tail wagging the dog scenario at the end of the Day if the EU want to impose a Hard border then so beit, - We will not be held to ransom with threats of a return to terrorism, the fact MI5/6 had infiltrated the IRA, and the new's Gerry Adams was a MI5/6 Informer tells you how deep the penetration went. it will then be a choice for Ulster and the rR.O.I to decided what their future policy should be.

So day to day life will continue without any noticeable effect. Okay, the first week or two after Brexit we're going to see clogged up sea-ports and roads as the EU tries to make a point, and we expect no less from them, just look at the news stating the EU wont recognise the UK driving licence, yet at the same time will recognise American or Australia driving licences, shows how pathetic the EU is. the UK driving licences are the world’s most powerful, according to research. Our licences, along with French carry the most weight globally, making it easier for travellers to get behind the wheel abroad. yet the EU once again wants to put itself at odd;s with the rest of the word. but anyway if the EU decideds to make a political point on Brexit Day plus one and cause backlogs it will be no more of a inconvenience or longer than say when the French go on one of their many annual strikes and once it starts to hit their economies in the pocket they'll soon find solutions. its marvellous how a fall in revenue can concentrate the mind. 

 

[Unusual Tournament]

9 hours ago, stevewinn said:

The cracks are there for all to see, its just a shame one has to go beyond the British media to see it reported, and when i say beyond the British Media i mean simply listening to Parliamentary debates & speeches. including those in EU member countries. the Nordic countries especially who're more like-minded (with the UK) and want to pursue a trade agreement.

the only cracks i see are those in May's cabinet. May has been secretive in what she's asking for. too secretive to be anything but confident of delivering a good brexit deal. is that a negotiating ploy or is that to stop a cabinet revolt? it hasn't escaped the British media either that brexit is less about a GB/EU trade deal and more a Tory zealot project using a weak leader to deliver a no deal. you speak of Nordic countries... i remember reading back before the referendum that Farage was postulating a Norway style agreement. free movement and a member of the single market. 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-09/farage-predicts-norwegian-style-deal-for-britain-post-brexit

that's the trade deal that the Nordic countries want for GB and until recently even Farage. now why would the Nordic countries want to give an advantage to GB that they don't enjoy? more lies steve. just another example of the constant goal post shifting that the likes of Johnston, Gove and Rees-Mogs have since employed to bully their own leader and the nation. so now we blame the British media for telling it as it is... I'm not surprised in the least that many people that voted leave are looking for a second referendum. 

 

[Unusual Tournament]

10 hours ago, stevewinn said:

But it can be summed up perfectly The United Kingdom through the democratic process as decided to leave a treaty, a Political Union, and all the UK is seeking on its departure after 43 years as a NET contributor is a mutually beneficial Free/trade agreement and that's it in a nut shell, For the British part we've even wished them well in their future endeavour to create the Federal Europe they desire.

'you wished them well?' oh why didn't you say so...

Edited February 24, 2018 by Captain Risky

[Unusual Tournament]

10 hours ago, stevewinn said:

But it can be summed up perfectly The United Kingdom through the democratic process as decided to leave a treaty, a Political Union, and all the UK is seeking on its departure after 43 years as a NET contributor is a mutually beneficial Free/trade agreement and that's it in a nut shell, For the British part we've even wished them well in their future endeavour to create the Federal Europe they desire.

actually that's not exactly true. the brexit referendum was a non binding vote and in no way was it an expression of the will of the people for the politicians to act upon, directly. for it to have been a legitimate democratic process the result should have been sent to parliament where the majority of MP's that were remainers could have theoretically blocked it and gone to elections. the bill would have been debated. pro's and con's would have delivered a informed opinion. instead Cameron resigned and May was elected new leader of GB. and thats the problem. not saying that the will of the people should have been openly discarded, just that the process should not have stopped there.   

The simple answer to the question as to whether the EU referendum is legally binding is “no”. In theory, in the event of a vote to leave the EU, David Cameron, who opposes Brexit, could decide to ignore the will of the people and put the question to MPs banking on a majority deciding to remain.

This is because parliament is sovereign and referendums are generally not binding in the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/23/eu-referendum-legally-binding-brexit-lisbon-cameron-sovereign-parliament

 

 

[Grey Area]

1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

actually that's not exactly true. the brexit referendum was a non binding vote and in no way was it an expression of the will of the people for the politicians to act upon, directly. for it to have been a legitimate democratic process the result should have been sent to parliament where the majority of MP's that were remainers could have theoretically blocked it and gone to elections. the bill would have been debated. pro's and con's would have delivered a informed opinion. instead Cameron resigned and May was elected new leader of GB. and thats the problem. not saying that the will of the people should have been openly discarded, just that the process should not have stopped there.   

The simple answer to the question as to whether the EU referendum is legally binding is “no”. In theory, in the event of a vote to leave the EU, David Cameron, who opposes Brexit, could decide to ignore the will of the people and put the question to MPs banking on a majority deciding to remain.

This is because parliament is sovereign and referendums are generally not binding in the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/23/eu-referendum-legally-binding-brexit-lisbon-cameron-sovereign-parliament

 

 

But the process didn’t stop there, it went to parliament, was debated and the bill was passed.

I honestly had to double check the date stamp of your post, we are at least a solid year beyond this.

[Unusual Tournament]

4 hours ago, Grey Area said:

But the process didn’t stop there, it went to parliament, was debated and the bill was passed.

I honestly had to double check the date stamp of your post, we are at least a solid year beyond this.

No it didn’t. May and the brexiteers tried to stop and control it the whole way. 

https://www.google.com.au/amp/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2017/12/uk-theresa-loses-crucial-brexit-parliament-vote-171213192208956.html

now the brexiteers are offering a “meaningful vote” after the fact. 

 

 

 

[stevewinn]

13 hours ago, Grey Area said:

But the process didn’t stop there, it went to parliament, was debated and the bill was passed.

I honestly had to double check the date stamp of your post, we are at least a solid year beyond this.

Correct, - Captain Risky has it all wrong, and so disappointingly as he takes a keen interest in all things Brexit.

The fact he's still peddling the line the referendum was non-binding. okay it was non-binding, you should have told the MP's. Unlike many other parts of the world the UK doesn't ignore the results of National Referenda. just like the one held in 1975.

We've seen it many times, the French voted No, the Dutch Voted No, the EU then amended the treaty so it would bypass the need for a second referenda in France/Netherlands and so they were never asked again. The Irish voted No, and where simply made to vote again. The French President recently admitted if the French people were given a Referendum to Leave or Remain, they'd probably vote Leave. Better not ask them then.

8 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

No it didn’t. May and the brexiteers tried to stop and control it the whole way. 

https://www.google.com.au/amp/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2017/12/uk-theresa-loses-crucial-brexit-parliament-vote-171213192208956.html

now the brexiteers are offering a “meaningful vote” after the fact. 

 

 

 

You do remember don't you that Parliament passed the Bill to repeal the 1972 act. The Government has won all but one of the votes on the EU Withdrawal Bill. The most important vote, the one to approve Clause 1 which repeals the 1972 European Communities Act, (which means we ARE LEAVING). it passed by 318 to 68, as Labour accepted they needed to allow the repeal to permit Brexit. - Also the Bill has now left the commons and at committee stage. The one vote the Govt lost was the one you referrer to in your link and the meaningful vote is NOT a vote on whether we Remain or Leave its a vote on whether to accept the final deal. So a YES or NO. Not Remain or Leave, If they vote No, then we leave with No deal which is WTO as it stands the WTO option is better than the deal the EU is offering.

You might need a re-fresher.

Her Majesty's Govt has handed the EU our Article 50 letter under that Article in the Lisbon Treaty the UK gave notice of leaving the European Union/political institution. 

The British Parliament have passed clause 1 of the Bill which repeals the 1972 Act that took us in to the EEC/European Union. (see above)

Our leaving date is 23:00 March 29th 2019.

Here is a link with all the information you need. im sorry its not your favourite source of information IE:google search generated drivel. so i await you asking me for "sources"

https://services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/europeanunionwithdrawal.html

 

 

[LV-426]

2 hours ago, stevewinn said:

You might need a re-fresher.

Why garner your information from the proverbial horse's mouth, when you can google stories from aljazeera.com...