Opening gambits in EU / UK exit negotiations;

[stevewinn]

46 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

Its highly likely imo that we will get May's deal - no deal is a non starter and will be circumvented - the ERG know this so expect movement towards May's deal otherwise known as Brino.

Personally I think Mays deal is the best of a bad hand but it has good points as per the political declaration:

"The future relationship should incorporate the United Kingdom's continued commitment to respect the framework of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR)"

"with a view to facilitating the movement of goods across borders, the Parties envisage comprehensive arrangements that will create a free trade area, combining deep regulatory and customs cooperation, underpinned by provisions ensuring a level playing field for open and fair competition."

"The economic partnership should ensure no tariffs, fees, charges or quantitative restrictions across all sectors, with ambitious customs arrangements that, in line with the Parties' objectives and principles above, build and improve on the single customs territory provided for in the Withdrawal Agreement which obviates the need for checks on rules of origin."

Will there be a second referendum on this - doubt it - the ERG will move to support it to avoid a second referendum.

So on the 30th of March we will be:

1. Out of the EU but in it.  and 2 years down the line we will be out of the EU but with a Customs Union albeit under a different name,  Regulatory Alignment or something; (70% chance) or
2. In a period of delay while we wait on the ERG to come round to 1; (20% chance) or
3. In a period of delay while we wait on a referendum on Mays deal or stay in (ouch that would hurt - hence why 2 above more likely than 3); (10% chance) or
4. In a No Deal scenario on WTO rules - which although the default position is not one that even the government expects to be delivered; (0% chance). 

34 days and counting...

obviously the percentages are my take on things.

what can be agreed in the next 2 years that couldn't have been agreed in the previous 2 years?

So, we dont leave in 2019 but 2021. what's the difference. they argue about the Irish backstop and uncertainty for business, yet want another 2 years of the same Irish backstop and uncertainty. (and we only leave in 2021 if the EU agrees we can leave, we cant leave unilaterally yeah right give your head a bloody wobble)

You live in a democracy we leave on the 29th March. if you want a different kind of democracy i recommend Zimbabwe.

 

[Unusual Tournament]

11 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

Who said the UK could or would force anyone to the negotiating table?? thats not how it works and its just bizarre to even think that. 

The UK will gladly sit at the table with like minded countries who seek trade deals for mutual benefit.

you have this very strange notion that the EU is almighty and powerful. that's why its FTA's with the USA, China, are non-existent, and yet Iceland 350,000 population has a FTA with China, as does Chile, Costa Rica, New Zealand,  Singapore, even tiny Australia 24million population so its clear size doesn't mean anything when it comes to trade agreements.

Our Exports to the world have grown three times faster than they have to the EU, for the last decade our trade with the EU as been declining and continues to do so, and more importantly this is while we've been full EU member's, inside this glorious club, I've continually pointed out to people who like to boast about the EU market of 400million how many of the 400m can afford UK products? how many of that 400m today buy British products, its clearly not a lot because the 65million of us are buying more from the 400m than the 400m buy from us. get your head around that.

do you know how much a 20ft container from Europe to the UK costs? £450, do you know how much its costs from the UK to Europe £12. all because space is a premium coming into the UK market but going back there is extra space for the empty containers and they want them back so they can refill them again. 3 out of every 4 lorries leaving the UK for Europe are returning home empty.

and if that isn't a eye opener then our annual £100bn trade deficit with the EU certainly is. this glorious single market according to the EU's own study found it benefited the EU by just 2% a German study found it was just 1% for the UK. (rounded up from 0.9%) so the last 24 years as members as added just 1% to our GDP. absolutely crazy, if you dont believe me look at the EU's FTA with Canada, set to benefit Canada by 0.3% and the EU by 0.2%. wow.

our countries don't rise and fall on such numbers, want further proof look at Russia its had sanctions placed on it, its economy is still growing and i might add faster than that of the Eurozone.

like i've said many times we trade with the USA on WTO, that hasnt stopped it becoming our single biggest trade and investment partner, yet someone how if we trade with the EU on the same terms its a cliff edge, maybe if we trade with the EU on WTO the EU will replace the USA as our single biggest market. lets take the argument that WTO terms is a cliff edge, well imagine how much better our trading would be with the USA if we were allowed to conduct our own trade deal. So the EU is clearly holding us back? no?

on safety and quality standards the UK leads the way, and are you really saying our parliment couldn't legislate and pass its own safety standards. the EU's standards are a minimum and the UK in most areas surpasses them compared to other EU countries. just take the humble UK plug the safest in the world. shall we reduce our high standards to meet that of the EU. (you get the point)

steve thats a lengthy reply and reeks of the telegraph and half baked figures based on twitter posts. Im not going to comment an any figures you don't put a link too.  

You can't convince me or most logical people with the rosy picture you paint when your entire country shakes with uncertainty and your politicians continue to suck up to Europe. if things were half as good as you say then the EU would have collapsed years ago. i only have to look at Greece for evidence that the export driven reforms that the EU has imposed and austerity work. this free trade, go it alone approach just doesn't work. 

[RAyMO]

1 minute ago, stevewinn said:

You live in a democracy we leave on the 29th March. if you want a different kind of democracy i recommend Zimbabwe.

As I said we leave on Mays deal - so effectively still in for 2 years - transition I think they call it - rule takers others call it.

either way designed to cushion the negative impact, and If the government was any good at all they'd have a deal all but wrapped up by then (20/21) which wouldn't need an Irish backstop - after all they will have had 4.5 years by then.

[Unusual Tournament]

17 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

As I said we leave on Mays deal - so effectively still in for 2 years - transition I think they call it - rule takers others call it.

either way designed to cushion the negative impact, and If the government was any good at all they'd have a deal all but wrapped up by then (20/21) which wouldn't need an Irish backstop - after all they will have had 4.5 years by then.

its an endless drama. if it could have been stitched up then it would have by now. the truth is that steve and others won't accept that the EU will always figure highly in UK trade. this irk's them. 

[Duke Wellington]

14 hours ago, spud the mackem said:

Corbyn may have said 3 years ago that he was pro-leave, but now he is still clamouring for a 2nd referendum ,why do you think that is . 

No backbone to stand up to his remain MPs.

[stevewinn]

3 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

steve thats a lengthy reply and reeks of the telegraph and half baked figures based on twitter posts. Im not going to comment an any figures you don't put a link too.  

You can't convince me or most logical people with the rosy picture you paint when your entire country shakes with uncertainty and your politicians continue to suck up to Europe. if things were half as good as you say then the EU would have collapsed years ago. i only have to look at Greece for evidence that the export driven reforms that the EU has imposed and austerity work. this free trade, go it alone approach just doesn't work. 

you've had two years, two years to learn facts and figures. if you read them in my post and think their made up more fool you. but proves a point your not keen on educating yourself over Brexit, more of a headline man aren't you. rather follow the editorial of a google search. opinion of a journalist.

2 hours ago, RAyMO said:

As I said we leave on Mays deal - so effectively still in for 2 years - transition I think they call it - rule takers others call it.

either way designed to cushion the negative impact, and If the government was any good at all they'd have a deal all but wrapped up by then (20/21) which wouldn't need an Irish backstop - after all they will have had 4.5 years by then.

The deal where we cant leave without the EU's permission yes, marvellous, this country as never tied itself to such a treaty or agreement. and even the remainers in Parliament voted it down on them grounds.

Leave 29th March, its a date we've all known for two years. The country is ready. its time.

 

 

 

[Duke Wellington]

15 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

no steve that's not what Gove is postulating. what he's saying is that Brexit and in particular Hard Brexit will decimate UK agriculture and the UK will have to wean itself of this free trade fallacy that has powered brexit. free trade is just not something that the UK can do. it just has too many weak and exposed industries and high income workers to be able to do. 

just face the reality of Brexit... it was all about flag waving and immigration. and its going to cost the UK dearly! 

A Hard Brexit will not decimate agriculture.

Cheap food imports from outside the EU currently come here and pay the tariff to get in. When we leave the EU if we set the exact same tariffs then nothing has changed. To damage our agricultural industry we would need lower import tariffs on food than what the EU currently has in place.

With Irish food exports they pay no tariffs as they are a member of the EU. If we leave with a Soft-Brexit where no import tariff is placed on their farmers then nothing has changed. If we implement a 5% WTO tariff then it actually harms Irish farmers by making their products more expensive boosting our own agricultural industry. It also means food exporters from other countries around the world would be able to compete better against Irish farmers on price. Hence it is the Irish agricultural sector which will get the kick-in.

British consumers will also be paying a little more for their food in such an eventuality mean it is our purchasing power which gets reduced. But, when we factor in all industries then due to the complexity involved no one can say if overall our purchasing power will reduce, increase, or remain the same. Anybody claiming anything different is lying to you.

Ireland is most likely heading for a major recession once we leave.

Edited February 23, 2019 by RabidMongoose

[Ozymandias]

On ‎21‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 5:19 PM, stevewinn said:

Because they want use the excuse of irish terrorism. And so keep us tied to the EU.

Who wants to use the excuse of Irish terrorism? There are many factors playing into either side of the argument for or against Brexit. The possibility of terrorism against border infrastructure is just one of them.   

On ‎21‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 5:19 PM, stevewinn said:

This is the reality the irish are anti British. (Just look at the irish thank you card to the commission)

The Irish anti-British?! Some might be, but that is a silly generalisation. Some British people - like you, for example - are anti-Irish, but not all. I have many British (mainly English) relations and acquaintances with whom I disagree about some issues, but none are anti-Irish. 

On ‎21‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 5:19 PM, stevewinn said:

They wanted independence from the UK but they never wanted the consequences of that. By being EU member's it has postponed those consequences becoming a reality.

Ireland won its War of Independence and has been a sovereign country and living with the consequences of independence for a century. What planet do you live on?

On ‎21‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 5:19 PM, stevewinn said:

Now nearly a hundred years later the reality is hitting home, my view is the irish want to be treated like a 3rd country. And s should be treated like one no special favours. And compete on the world stage for our custom.

Reality hitting home? What reality is that exactly? We have always competed on the world stage for your custom. Get over yourself!

[Ozymandias]

On ‎21‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 5:25 PM, RabidMongoose said:

About 5000 people commute across the Irish border every weekday.

Actually, it's at least 30,000 every day - and that's just across the two major border crossings at Newry and Derry. It does not include the figures for all other crossings on the 500 kilometre long border.

 

[stevewinn]

26 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

Who wants to use the excuse of Irish terrorism? There are many factors playing into either side of the argument for or against Brexit. The possibility of terrorism against border infrastructure is just one of them.   

The Irish anti-British?! Some might be, but that is a silly generalisation. Some British people - like you, for example - are anti-Irish, but not all. I have many British (mainly English) relations and acquaintances with whom I disagree about some issues, but none are anti-Irish. 

Ireland won its War of Independence and has been a sovereign country and living with the consequences of independence for a century. What planet do you live on?

Reality hitting home? What reality is that exactly? We have always competed on the world stage for your custom. Get over yourself!

All the Irish have to offer is terrorism,

Just look at the stunt, the thank you card to the EU commission.

The Card said, “Mr Juncker, I will be honest I never really understood the EU. It was something we learned about in school, a part of history, more than a part of today. But your five words: Ireland’s borders are Europe’s borders made me want to jump for joy, punch my hands in the air and kiss you.

“For the first time ever Ireland is stronger than Britain. That strength comes not from guns or bombs. It comes from your words, and that of your colleagues.” “Britain does not care about peace in Northern Ireland. To them it’s a nuisance.”

signed Haley, Dave, Scooby and Little Boo.

What's that all about?????

your friends etc might not be anti-Irish, but we know your anti-British.

as for Irish independence, you've never felt what its like to be independent, was using a currency pegged to the pound sterling, always under the yoke of the UK and just when the consequences of independence would have hit, you followed us into the EU, this then mitigated the consequences for 47 years, now were leaving Ireland is going to face the reality of 3rd country status from the United Kingdom it should have faced in 195s no longer will you have preferential trade deal like you had in the single market/customs union. no, the Irish will have to compete on the world stage and your just not up to it,  your economy will be hit and hit hard.

poor old Ireland throughout its history when there was a choice to be made they've always chose the wrong one.

Leo, poor old Leo, what have you done you thought the EU was on your side, a united Ireland hinted at, just watch how the EU will cast you aside. they wont like propping up the Irish economy for the next five/ten years. not when their already coming after your low tax regime.

oh dear, how sad, never mind.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by stevewinn

[Ozymandias]

On ‎21‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 5:45 PM, RabidMongoose said:

Over the last few centuries British history has shown quite clearly that the Irish are religious fundamentalists.

The religious issue was brought to Ireland by the British/English. It is they who made religion a political issue in the British Isles. The Irish are not the religious fundamentalists. In Britain the word 'fundamentalism' has its origins in Protestant anti-Catholic fanaticism and is defined in the Oxford English Dictionary as 'a form of Protestant Christianity which upholds belief in the strict and literal interpretation of the Bible'. The tragedy of Irelands history has been British Protestant zeal. This has manifested itself repeatedly over the centuries in British attitudes and actions in Ireland. For example, Cromwell, the Penal Laws, the Great Famine, etc.

On ‎21‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 5:45 PM, RabidMongoose said:

Has that been changing over the last 100 years? They would argue yes, but its been less that 100 years since the last time they were killing each other over religion. The Catholics over there were killing Protestants in Northern Ireland so they requested to re-join the UK so that we would save them.

Your ignorance of the true facts of Irish history is sadly obvious here. 

On ‎21‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 5:45 PM, RabidMongoose said:

The IRA liked to claim that what was actually happening was an opportunistic Britain expanding its empire. From our side we intervened to prevent a human rights catastrophe. While some of the ancestors of those Protestants were religious converts most of them have some English ancestry in their past. So bearing in mind most have some English in them we felt it our duty to save them from what could easily have become ethnic cleansing.

So how did the English initially end up there spreading their seed amongst the local population? Its back to the religious fundamentalism again. Ireland used to routinely kick off over religion causing numerous civil wars and rebellions, some of which spread throughout the rest of the UK. So to stop those Catholic Fundamentalists we removed the guilty ones from their middle and upper class positions in society and transplanted loyal citizens across into their places instead.

Then those naughty Catholic Rebels no longer commanded the positions of leadership or had the resources to cause any further problems.

The Irish are also paranoid about us deliberately letting Catholics starve to death during the potato famine unless they converted to Protestants. In reality we fed the starving in return for them working for the state on civil engineering projects (mainly road building). Most of those that starved to death didnt want to do the work or let things get so bad that by the time they turned up at the workhouse they were badly malnourished. Then simple colds killed them.

A Ladybird version of Irish history for English Nationalists. This is rubbish!

 

[Duke Wellington]

52 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

The religious issue was brought to Ireland by the British/English. It is they who made religion a political issue in the British Isles. The Irish are not the religious fundamentalists. In Britain the word 'fundamentalism' has its origins in Protestant anti-Catholic fanaticism and is defined in the Oxford English Dictionary as 'a form of Protestant Christianity which upholds belief in the strict and literal interpretation of the Bible'. The tragedy of Irelands history has been British Protestant zeal. This has manifested itself repeatedly over the centuries in British attitudes and actions in Ireland. For example, Cromwell, the Penal Laws, the Great Famine, etc.

Your ignorance of the true facts of Irish history is sadly obvious here. 

A Ladybird version of Irish history for English Nationalists. This is rubbish!

 

Our Ladybird version of history? Haha

You guys started the English Civil war not us. You liked the British Monarch who took a step back towards Catholicism because you guys were Catholic fundamentalists. You rose up to support him causing the English Civil war but lost because Parliament put Cromwell in charge to crush it.

England and the rest of the UK moved on from petty religious conflicts. We have religious freedom. You guys only started moving away from your version of the Taliban 50 years ago lol. I mean, you were still locking up women for getting pregnant outside of marriage. Is abortion legal yet? The Irish are a black spot in Western civilization when it comes to a lack of religious freedom. You are the Afghanistan of Europe.

We didnt cause your potato famine. Most of your people that died did so because they wouldnt go to the workhouses to perform civil engineering construction tasks in return for food aid from Britain. That is, until their emaciation got so bad they were left with no choice. And unfortunately by that time they couldn't fight off the common viruses which then decimated your population.

Those who died in Ireland 150 years ago were like the UK benefit scroungers of today. They didnt want to work for their food. They expected the British State to pay for it and felt entitled too it. They got a shock. Work was made available to them and if they didnt do the work then they didnt get fed. They willingly chose to starve to death because their pride was more important to them.

I guess when your country has a major recession later this year the nasty old English will get the blame for that too? Are your people going to cause a new war over it?

Edited February 23, 2019 by RabidMongoose

[Ozymandias]

1 hour ago, stevewinn said:

All the Irish have to offer is terrorism,

Just look at the stunt, the thank you card to the EU commission. ……

........... signed Haley, Dave, Scooby and Little Boo.

What's that all about?????

One young Irishwoman, Haley Kierse, and her three dogs Dave, Scooby and Little Boo, send Juncker a card. That makes her a terrorist???!!!

1 hour ago, stevewinn said:

... no longer will you have preferential trade deal like you had in the single market/customs union. no, the Irish will have to compete on the world stage and your just not up to it,  your economy will be hit and hit hard.

Sounds like you desperately wish it to happen.

1 hour ago, stevewinn said:

… oh dear, how sad, ….

Indeed, yes. You are.

[stevewinn]

8 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

One young Irishwoman, Haley Kierse, and her three dogs Dave, Scooby and Little Boo, send Juncker a card. That makes her a terrorist???!!!

Sounds like you desperately wish it to happen.

Indeed, yes. You are.

I think we can all see the card stunt for what it was. only have to read the contents.

Leo what have you done. there will be no hard border, Juncker there will be no hard border. when the British don't yield, its hard border insists the EU, what happened Leo, who controls your borders Ireland or the EU, Its okay Ireland can sign a trade deal with the UK and save its economy, never mind if it does all go pear shaped you can devalue your currency oh, no Oops. no it can't. Some independence you got there.

And i hope the British Govt remembers little Leo's words and actions when the Eurozone recession hits and Ireland needs bailout money. not one penny should be offered. and veto any IMF loan.

its time you pay, and pay you will handsomely. 

well done Leo, but then again his coalition govt will collapse anyway and he'll be back to India or a cushy role in Brussels for loyalty meanwhile back in Ireland its spuds for breakfast, Dinner and tea.

[Ozymandias]

20 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Our Ladybird version of history? Haha

You guys started the English Civil war not us.

There is some excuse for you not knowing Irish history but you don't even know your own history!The English Civil War was started and fought in England. How on earth could the Irish start a war in your country between your people? A good place to start your education on the matter would be here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Civil_War 

20 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

England and the rest of the UK moved on from petty religious conflicts. 

No you didn't! You threated Catholics with blatant discrimination for being true to their faith. You imposed a set of Penal Laws against Catholics in their own country that Edmund Burke described as 'a machine of wise and elaborate contrivance, as well fitted for the oppression, impoverishment and degradation of a people, and the debasement in them of human nature itself, as ever proceeded from the perverted ingenuity of man.'

20 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

You guys only started moving away from your version of the Taliban 50 years ago lol. I mean, you were still locking up women for getting pregnant outside of marriage. Is abortion legal yet? The Irish are a black spot in Western civilization when it comes to a lack of religious freedom. You are the Afghanistan of Europe.

We didnt cause your potato famine. Most of your people that died did so because they wouldnt go to the workhouses to perform civil engineering construction tasks in return for food aid from Britain. That is, until their emaciation got so bad they were left with no choice. And unfortunately by that time they couldn't fight off the common viruses which then decimated your population.

Those who died in Ireland 150 years ago were like the UK benefit scroungers of today. They didnt want to work for their food. They expected the British State to pay for it and felt entitled too it. They got a shock. Work was made available to them and if they didnt do the work then they didnt get fed. They willingly chose to starve to death because their pride was more important to them.

All of this is a travesty of the facts. I'm not surprised, though, coming from one as ill-educated on the matter as you. 

20 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

I guess when your country has a major recession later this year the nasty old English will get the blame for that too? Are your people going to cause a new war over it?

I have no doubt that some Irish will blame Britain and not without some justification since Brexit will do damage to all of us - the EU, the UK and Ireland. Only an idiot would think Ireland will be going to war over it!

[Ozymandias]

12 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

I think we can all see the card stunt for what it was. only have to read the contents.

Leo what have you done. there will be no hard border, Juncker there will be no hard border. when the British don't yield, its hard border insists the EU, what happened Leo, who controls your borders Ireland or the EU, Its okay Ireland can sign a trade deal with the UK and save its economy, never mind if it does all go pear shaped you can devalue your currency oh, no Oops. no it can't. Some independence you got there.

And i hope the British Govt remembers little Leo's words and actions when the Eurozone recession hits and Ireland needs bailout money. not one penny should be offered. and veto any IMF loan.

its time you pay, and pay you will handsomely. 

well done Leo, but then again his coalition govt will collapse anyway and he'll be back to India or a cushy role in Brussels for loyalty meanwhile back in Ireland its spuds for breakfast, Dinner and tea.

We do pay - all the time! Now, I think I shall return to my sane life and leave you to yours. Bye bye.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Ozymandias

[Duke Wellington]

6 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

There is some excuse for you not knowing Irish history but you don't even know your own history!The English Civil War was started and fought in England. How on earth could the Irish start a war in your country between your people? A good place to start your education on the matter would be here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Civil_War 

No you didn't! You threated Catholics with blatant discrimination for being true to their faith. You imposed a set of Penal Laws against Catholics in their own country that Edmund Burke described as 'a machine of wise and elaborate contrivance, as well fitted for the oppression, impoverishment and degradation of a people, and the debasement in them of human nature itself, as ever proceeded from the perverted ingenuity of man.'

All of this is a travesty of the facts. I'm not surprised, though, coming from one as ill-educated on the matter as you. 

I have no doubt that some Irish will blame Britain and not without some justification since Brexit will do damage to all of us - the EU, the UK and Ireland. Only an idiot would think Ireland will be going to war over it!

Well when in comes to those Penal Codes you seem to think that the UK should have let your Catholics continue to cause problems throughout the British Isles. How many wars, uprisings, and rebellions, did that religion cause? Loads.

By your logic we should let Islamic State be legal while ignoring their terrorism.

[spud the mackem]

8 hours ago, bee said:

 

He isn't 'clamouring' for a 2nd referendum... Remainers in his Party are pushing for him to call for it
but as of yet he hasn't -

he's walking a tightrope on the issue because he knows that Labour will probably lose millions of Working Class
voters if he betrays the Referendum Result... 

we are lucky really that Corbyn is at heart a Leave Supporter... because that is curtailing the Remainers in
his Party who would like to go the Full Monty... 

 

Corbyn only has one thing on his tiny mind ,its not Brexit , its not remain or leave , its how can he get the keys to number 10. and he will go to any length to achieve that, Lord forbid , 

[stevewinn]

6 minutes ago, spud the mackem said:

Corbyn only has one thing on his tiny mind ,its not Brexit , its not remain or leave , its how can he get the keys to number 10. and he will go to any length to achieve that, Lord forbid , 

There is going to be a political collapse in this country, a clearing of the decks. Brexit is like a massive reset button.

[itsnotoutthere]

20 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

if the Brexit referendum has shown the UK and the world anything its that the rabble by and large are morons. voting shouldn't be a right but a privilege. in fact having babies should be by invitation only. people just don't know whats good for them. but you're not alone in this crazy world. The Greeks moronically voted to make them selves rich and free of debt during the euro zone crises. the Americans with Trump and his MAGA campaign,  the Turks when they decided to democratically elect a dictator and the list goes on and on... 

Yup, democracy is a b****......when it doesn't go your way huh.

[itsnotoutthere]

20 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

if the Brexit referendum has shown the UK and the world anything its that the rabble by and large are morons. voting shouldn't be a right but a privilege. in fact having babies should be by invitation only. people just don't know whats good for them. but you're not alone in this crazy world. The Greeks moronically voted to make them selves rich and free of debt during the euro zone crises. the Americans with Trump and his MAGA campaign,  the Turks when they decided to democratically elect a dictator and the list goes on and on... 

Yes, and look how their EU masters are punishing them now.

[Unusual Tournament]

6 hours ago, stevewinn said:

you've had two years, two years to learn facts and figures. if you read them in my post and think their made up more fool you. but proves a point your not keen on educating yourself over Brexit, more of a headline man aren't you. rather follow the editorial of a google search. opinion of a journalist.

you've flooded this thread with "facts and figures" and you've been proven wrong. would you like me to start reposting your "facts and figure" from the last two years?

[Unusual Tournament]

1 hour ago, itsnotoutthere said:

Yes, and look how their EU masters are punishing them now.

they brought it on themselves. 

[itsnotoutthere]

2 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

they brought it on themselves. 

'course they did.

[stevewinn]

20 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

you've flooded this thread with "facts and figures" and you've been proven wrong. would you like me to start reposting your "facts and figure" from the last two years?

 

Go on indulge me.