Helen of Annoy Posted March 24, 2019 #5426 Share Posted March 24, 2019 7 hours ago, Aaron2016 said: Simply because I believe in democracy and that the first result should be respected and obeyed. Everyone knows why you so desperately demand that the democracy stops after the first result. It's because you obviously are certain the second referendum, after people were given a little more realistic information, will be in favour of staying in the EU. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted March 24, 2019 #5427 Share Posted March 24, 2019 27 minutes ago, bee said: I'm sorry but this isn't true.... and you know it.. Does ANYONE remember being told before the referendum that it was only advisory - ? No We even all had it in writing coming through our letterboxes that we were voting to (ACTUALLY) leave or remain in the EU and if we voted to leave we would be leaving the single market... you can't change history Non binding is what the referendum was described as. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted March 24, 2019 #5428 Share Posted March 24, 2019 17 hours ago, stevewinn said: The current Brexit debacle is of course much more than just whether UK stays in the EU or not. Its actually an existential question about whether people rule themselves (as in the concept behind a parliamentary democracy) or if they are to be led by the nose and managed by some form of unaccountable technocracy/plutocracy/tyranny. The indications are that it is the latter. You're right... there is more at stake here ... And it's Leave voters who are supposed to be the stupid ones... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted March 24, 2019 #5429 Share Posted March 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, bee said: You're right... there is more at stake here ... And it's Leave voters who are supposed to be the stupid ones... who said anything about supposed? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted March 24, 2019 #5430 Share Posted March 24, 2019 10 hours ago, Setton said: And that's absolutely fine. Because that is how our democracy works. It may also be that most of those 17.4 million don't care half as much about leaving as they do about having jobs and workers rights etc and decide to vote against your pet project. remind us again, immediate deep recession. emergency budget, 800,000 job loses, and yet the exact opposite has happened but still you cant admit it. hell its the eu thats going into recession, so how does that compute, our country is performing better with us leaving than those we are leaving. and as for the 17.4million don't care, well lets just say this they cared on voting day when it mattered. what happened to your side? its like the March in London yesterday, the losers march remainer sources say 1million turned up, maybe but their two years to late and 16million short. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAyMO Posted March 24, 2019 #5431 Share Posted March 24, 2019 9 minutes ago, bee said: my friend who voted remain says she would vote leave if there was another referendum... through no prompting from me, I might add... and I have friends with exactly the opposite view - In fact now panicking in case we get a no deal exit. But none of that matters. There is a lot of talk about democracy and trust in democracy. But fundamental to that is an understanding of what democracy is, and is not mob rule, it is not tyranny of the majority. I have lived under that type of democracy and you really don't want to go there - again. Democracy is about accepting the wishes and the rights of the majority while taking due consideration of the rights and wishes of the minority. Thus the 17.4 should have their exit from the institution of the EU and the minority should have their relationship with the EU protected as far as possible. Soft Brexit in other words. IMO that's what the politicians should have being doing this last 2 plus years - working out a brexit that could gain consensus across the 17.4 m and the not insignificant 16 + m 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted March 24, 2019 #5432 Share Posted March 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, Captain Risky said: Non binding is what the referendum was described as. perhaps you Australians were told that.... we weren't if we had been told that there would have been outright derision that we would go through all that... that all that money would be spent... for NOTHING... it was the fact that people thought their vote was actually going to count that they got out and voted... in the numbers that they did... do you think we would have gone through all that knowing that it could (and probably would) just be ignored by politicians - get real 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAyMO Posted March 24, 2019 #5433 Share Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, bee said: perhaps you Australians were told that.... we weren't We should understand our system of government. referendums are not binding unless stated otherwise. in the enabling Act. Edited March 24, 2019 by RAyMO 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted March 24, 2019 #5434 Share Posted March 24, 2019 1 minute ago, bee said: perhaps you Australians were told that.... we weren't if we had been told that there would have been outright derision that we would go through all that... that all that money would be spent... for NOTHING... it was the fact that people thought their vote was actually going to count that they got out and voted... in the numbers that they did... do you think we would have gone through all that knowing that it could (and probably would) just be ignored by politicians - get real it was non binding only the conservatives decided to implement the result. i guess they were in a hurry to "take back control" how's that working out for ya? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted March 24, 2019 #5435 Share Posted March 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, RAyMO said: and I have friends with exactly the opposite view - In fact now panicking in case we get a no deal exit. But none of that matters. There is a lot of talk about democracy and trust in democracy. But fundamental to that is an understanding of what democracy is, and is not mob rule, it is not tyranny of the majority. I have lived under that type of democracy and you really don't want to go there - again. Democracy is about accepting the wishes and the rights of the majority while taking due consideration of the rights and wishes of the minority. Thus the 17.4 should have their exit from the institution of the EU and the minority should have their relationship with the EU protected as far as possible. Soft Brexit in other words. IMO that's what the politicians should have being doing this last 2 plus years - working out a brexit that could gain consensus across the 17.4 m and the not insignificant 16 + m An official referendum - one man/woman - one vote is not 'mob rule'... I think you will find that 'soft brexit' will not be enough for most of the losing side... that's the irony of all the latest voting on May's / EU's deal.... it got voted down for two conflicting reasons - one by those who didn't think it was really leaving - and two by those who don't want to leave at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted March 24, 2019 #5436 Share Posted March 24, 2019 16 minutes ago, stevewinn said: remind us again, immediate deep recession. emergency budget, 800,000 job loses, and yet the exact opposite has happened but still you cant admit it. hell its the eu thats going into recession, so how does that compute, our country is performing better with us leaving than those we are leaving. and as for the 17.4million don't care, well lets just say this they cared on voting day when it mattered. what happened to your side? its like the March in London yesterday, the losers march remainer sources say 1million turned up, maybe but their two years to late and 16million short. the U.S. has clearly stated that there will be no trade deal until the NI border is safe guarded. China nd India will not make any trade deal that upsets the EU. so after you hard brexit (which won't happen) who exactly will the UK trade with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted March 24, 2019 #5437 Share Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, RAyMO said: Thus the 17.4 should have their exit from the institution of the EU and the minority should have their relationship with the EU protected as far as possible. Soft Brexit in other words. The Referendum was First Passed the Post....... not Proportional Representation.... This Okey Cokey type of Brexit that people who can't accept leaving want would bring us the worst of both worlds... we would be economically ruled by the EU and they (EU) would get rid of the (awkward) UK in any of the decision making processes... win win for the EU - lose lose for the UK Edited March 24, 2019 by bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted March 24, 2019 #5438 Share Posted March 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, bee said: perhaps you Australians were told that.... we weren't if we had been told that there would have been outright derision that we would go through all that... that all that money would be spent... for NOTHING... it was the fact that people thought their vote was actually going to count that they got out and voted... in the numbers that they did... do you think we would have gone through all that knowing that it could (and probably would) just be ignored by politicians - get real Bee, the remainers are clutching at straws with advisory and non binding. its the same with soft or hard brexit. only spoken about when they lost and then had to try and attempt to reverse the result. hell, Gina Miller remember her the custodian of democracy Gina Miller and her backers who remain unknowns to this day took the govt to court to try and get the result over turned. trying to stop Theresa May using "henry VIII" powers to force through Brexit. and yet today the remoaners want Theresa May to use those exact same henry the VIII powers to now stop brexit. you couldnt make it up. Ask the Australian did he get the Govt leaflet put through his letter box like we all did. explaining what would happen. Ask the Australian did he read the 2017 conservative and Labour Manifestos which said they'd respect the Referendum result and we'd leave the EU. in fact the parties which campaigned in their manifestos to remain in the EU got 12% of the vote combined. Hell for the first time in our History the establishment even extended the cut off date to register to vote giving the remoaning side even more chance to register. We even had intervention by President Obama, telling us we'd be back of the queue, and voting leave would mean leaving and no going back. I posted in a earlier post a few pages back but this was the official Conservative Govt advice. At no point did any political party state before the vote it was non binding or only advisory, and any decision made they would overturn. Its pathetic, feeble excuse because they've run out of road, 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setton Posted March 24, 2019 #5439 Share Posted March 24, 2019 57 minutes ago, bee said: I'm sorry but this isn't true.... and you know it.. Does ANYONE remember being told before the referendum that it was only advisory - ? No We even all had it in writing coming through our letterboxes that we were voting to (ACTUALLY) leave or remain in the EU and if we voted to leave we would be leaving the single market... you can't change history I'm very sorry if you don't understand the workings of parliament but that's not really on anyone but you. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setton Posted March 24, 2019 #5440 Share Posted March 24, 2019 24 minutes ago, stevewinn said: remind us again, immediate deep recession. emergency budget, 800,000 job loses, and yet the exact opposite has happened but still you cant admit it. hell its the eu thats going into recession, so how does that compute, our country is performing better with us leaving than those we are leaving. Have we already left then? Must have missed that. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted March 24, 2019 #5441 Share Posted March 24, 2019 David Cameron said he'd implemented. but parliament is sovereign. its up to parliament to implement it and not cameron or May. let parliament decide as is the law of the land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted March 24, 2019 #5442 Share Posted March 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, stevewinn said: Bee, the remainers are clutching at straws with advisory and non binding. its the same with soft or hard brexit. only spoken about when they lost and then had to try and attempt to reverse the result. hell, Gina Miller remember her the custodian of democracy Gina Miller and her backers who remain unknowns to this day took the govt to court to try and get the result over turned. trying to stop Theresa May using "henry VIII" powers to force through Brexit. and yet today the remoaners want Theresa May to use those exact same henry the VIII powers to now stop brexit. you couldnt make it up. Ask the Australian did he get the Govt leaflet put through his letter box like we all did. explaining what would happen. Ask the Australian did he read the 2017 conservative and Labour Manifestos which said they'd respect the Referendum result and we'd leave the EU. in fact the parties which campaigned in their manifestos to remain in the EU got 12% of the vote combined. Hell for the first time in our History the establishment even extended the cut off date to register to vote giving the remoaning side even more chance to register. We even had intervention by President Obama, telling us we'd be back of the queue, and voting leave would mean leaving and no going back. I posted in a earlier post a few pages back but this was the official Conservative Govt advice. At no point did any political party state before the vote it was non binding or only advisory, and any decision made they would overturn. Its pathetic, feeble excuse because they've run out of road, Cameron had no power to implement brexit. that is parliaments job. it was non binding so its up to their discretion to negotiate and even if they wanted to go ahead with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithisco Posted March 24, 2019 Author #5443 Share Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Captain Risky said: David Cameron said he'd implemented. but parliament is sovereign. its up to parliament to implement it and not cameron or May. let parliament decide as is the law of the land. The Law of the Land says that we leave on March 29. Its not rocket science. The Referendum result was implemented through Legal Instruments that were approved by both House of Commons and the House of Lords and was sent , and received, Royal Assent. Cant make it simpler than that Edited March 24, 2019 by keithisco 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAyMO Posted March 24, 2019 #5444 Share Posted March 24, 2019 A government leaflet isn't binding either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAyMO Posted March 24, 2019 #5445 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Just now, keithisco said: The Law o0f the Land says that we leave on March 29. Its not rocket science. The Referendum result was implemented through Legal Instruments that were approved by both House of Commons and the House of Lords and was sent , and received, Royal Assent. Cant make it simpler than that Except its meaningless as you will discover this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bee Posted March 24, 2019 #5446 Share Posted March 24, 2019 3 minutes ago, Setton said: I'm very sorry if you don't understand the workings of parliament but that's not really on anyone but you. perhaps the 'understanding of the 'workings of Parliament' that you speak of... is the bare faced treachery - well yes that understanding is an education for sure... something suspected for many a long year... but if we don't leave the EU and the single market the evidence will be there for all to see - MPs can get away with ignoring election manifestos - this is on another level... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted March 24, 2019 #5447 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Just now, keithisco said: The Law o0f the Land says that we leave on March 29. Its not rocket science. The Referendum result was implemented through Legal Instruments that were approved by both House of Commons and the House of Lords and was sent , and received, Royal Assent. Cant make it simpler than that the law clearly states that article 50 is a notification to Europe. Europe has said that there can be a delay. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithisco Posted March 24, 2019 Author #5448 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Just now, RAyMO said: Except its meaningless as you will discover this week. The date of leaving can only be changed through new Statutory Instruments brought before both houses, and passed by both Houses. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keithisco Posted March 24, 2019 Author #5449 Share Posted March 24, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Captain Risky said: the law clearly states that article 50 is a notification to Europe. Europe has said that there can be a delay. ...which is written into the Lisbon Treaty as we all know-so what is your point? Invoking Art 50 sets a process going governed by a number of codicils Edited March 24, 2019 by keithisco 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted March 24, 2019 #5450 Share Posted March 24, 2019 Just now, keithisco said: The date of leaving can only be changed through new Statutory Instruments brought before both houses, and passed by both Houses. LOL... article 50 is a notification to leave nothing more. Parliament can cancel with nothing more than a majority vote. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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