Opening gambits in EU / UK exit negotiations;

[quillius]

43 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

Utter, utter rubbish. If Britain is not independent as a current member of the EU then how can it independently decide to leave?

All EU members are independent states in voluntary union with each other.

using the marriage/divorce analogy once again (sorry)....whilst married you make a majority of decisions as a pair, you dont just decide to go on holiday on your own if you feel like it...or selling the family home if you decide......however one decision you can make is to 'leave' the marriage.

 

[TigerBright19]

38 minutes ago, quillius said:

using the marriage/divorce analogy once again (sorry)....whilst married you make a majority of decisions as a pair, you dont just decide to go on holiday on your own if you feel like it...or selling the family home if you decide......however one decision you can make is to 'leave' the marriage.

 

Easy to get in.  Hard to get out.

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Aaron2016

[RAyMO]

5 minutes ago, Aaron2016 said:

Easy to get in.  Hard to get out.

Nothing hard about it. There is nothing stopping the  UK from leaving without a deal.

[TigerBright19]

1 hour ago, RAyMO said:

Nothing hard about it. There is nothing stopping the  UK from leaving without a deal.

 

With a deal I mean.  Last night MPs voted on the option of a 'no-deal exit'.  The results were 160 for it, and 400 against it.  It is very hard to get out with a deal when there is no majority backed deal (any deal).  The favourable alternative would be a long delay until something is finally agreed.  We could certainly leave in legislation only with no-deal, but I think this will leave parliament in a limbo state as there would be no formal transition or implementation of a procedural withdrawal because nothing would have been agreed.  e.g. Scottish fisheries policy.  Would it be torn up, maintained, amended?  With no deal reached what happens and what guarantees or assurances do the UK and EU employees have that their contracts are not in jeopardy and future investments are sound?  No deal feels like unnecessary panic and instability, and the transition period feels like a good opportunity for corruption to take place as new policies are set up with possible hidden financial catches which will probably result in a national crisis or international scandal as the urgency to win the next election, or avoid a recession might result in crooked deals taking place e.g. that bizarre ferry service contract.

 

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Aaron2016

[Ozymandias]

1 hour ago, quillius said:

using the marriage/divorce analogy once again (sorry)....whilst married you make a majority of decisions as a pair, you dont just decide to go on holiday on your own if you feel like it...or selling the family home if you decide......however one decision you can make is to 'leave' the marriage.

I don't know what kind of marriages you know of, but for me a marriage is an agreed partnership between two equals, not a domination of one by the other. It's a union where both parties recognise there are unique benefits but they come at a cost. Neither side can have their cake and eat it. It's a very mature and grown up arrangement.

[quillius]

8 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

I don't know what kind of marriages you know of, but for me a marriage is an agreed partnership between two equals, not a domination of one by the other. It's a union where both parties recognise there are unique benefits but they come at a cost. Neither side can have their cake and eat it. It's a very mature and grown up arrangement.

the post was in response to your question '  If Britain is not independent as a current member of the EU then how can it independently decide to leave?'

I posted the example to show how this is possible whilst in an agreed 'partnership'....an agreed partnership or the term 'union' does not indicate being  independent........because by pure definition you are 'dependent' on the other party to reap the rewards of said union.

[Duke Wellington]

18 hours ago, Setton said:

As expected. This stage was meant to whittle down the options to the most popular for further debate and voting on Monday. 

3 most popular:

Customs Union - 264 for, 272 against 

Confirmatory Referendum - 268 for, 295 against 

Labour Brexit Plan - 237 for, 307 against. 

I dont know why she doesnt just say her original Soft-Brexit.

And regardless of whether it has an exit clause or not we will be breaking the agreement when it no longer suits us. We are a nuclear power, what would they be able to do about it?

[stevewinn]

last nights votes are and where a complete waste of time. Bercow allowed 7 remain proposals and 1 leave proposal. and every single one was voted against.

We are where we are because MP's don't have the courage to turn around to the people of this country and simply say. we don't trust you, we dont respect you or your referendum vote, you the people are there to be governed by us, we don't agree with the referendum outcome therefore we are going to ignore the referendum mandate, were not leaving the EU, if you don't like it tough, and how dare you the people have confidence in our country, when we clearly don't, but please vote for me on polling day. and we'll carry on as normal. i'll carry on being a democratically elected MP, and you carry on believing you live in a democracy, where im elected to serve you.

 

[hetrodoxly]

9 hours ago, RAyMO said:

Nothing hard about it. There is nothing stopping the  UK from leaving without a deal.

That's what Brexiteers want, we have long memories the quislings will be kicked out on their ass and if we're forced to stay in i'll nevey buy anything from the EU again the worlds a big place.

Edited March 28, 2019 by hetrodoxly

[Ozymandias]

10 hours ago, Aaron2016 said:

Easy to get in.  Hard to get out.

 

Rubbish!! The only thing stopping you leaving tomorrow is yourselves. You can leave anytime you like and the EU cannot prevent you. The only thing stopping you is your own parliament and MPs.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Ozymandias

[Grey Area]

8 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

I don't know what kind of marriages you know of, but for me a marriage is an agreed partnership between two equals, not a domination of one by the other. It's a union where both parties recognise there are unique benefits but they come at a cost. Neither side can have their cake and eat it. It's a very mature and grown up arrangement.

Not sure that analogy is representative of all marriages, in fact that would just be representative of very few.  

Infact the more you look at it the less like a marriage the situation actually is, and it’s certainly not a marriage of equals.

[Ozymandias]

20 minutes ago, Grey Area said:

Not sure that analogy is representative of all marriages, in fact that would just be representative of very few.  

Infact the more you look at it the less like a marriage the situation actually is, and it’s certainly not a marriage of equals.

Well, of course, the UK/EU union is absolutely nothing like a marriage which is a union of two equals. In the EU union the UK is in a polygamous marriage with 27 other countries.

[TigerBright19]

2 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

Rubbish!! The only thing stopping you leaving tomorrow is yourselves. You can leave anytime you like and the EU cannot prevent you. The only thing stopping you is your own parliament and MPs.

Like I said.  Hard to get out.

 

[spud the mackem]

1 hour ago, Ozymandias said:

Well, of course, the UK/EU union is absolutely nothing like a marriage which is a union of two equals. In the EU union the UK is in a polygamous marriage with 27 other countries.

And that's why we want out buddy, we don't want to have a 1/28th say in our Countries future , decreed by a non elected bunch of plebs who make rules as they see fit , like putting a speed limiter of 50 mph on your car .They actually passed law that stated curved bananas were banned , how bloody crazy was that. but if you want to stay and be directed by these crazies please feel free to do so.  

[spud the mackem]

20 hours ago, stevewinn said:

So after all this were now leaving on April 12th.

 

Steve do you honestly believe that , because I think that May has chucked a spanner in the works , she is a Remainer from the start and doesn't want us out, the agreement she made with the E.U. was/is the one giving the E.U. the upper hand and she tried to sell that to Brexit M.P's and that's why we are having all this in fighting in the present Gov't. She capitulated to their demands and therefor I class her as a Traitor to the British public , this will drag on as long as the E.U. want it to .

[Black Red Devil]

In summary, if the WA will get voted down again a hard Brexit is the most likely outcome and the UK would leave the EU on the 12the April.  Another referendum sounds out of question.  Subsequently May would probably resign and Brian Johnston, the main candidate and the loudest Brexiteer mouthpiece in the initial referendum, would rightfully be given the nod to lead the country in the dawn of a new era and take over as your new PM.

Wow, a couple of cliches come to mind, 'you don't realise what you had until it's gone' and 'from riches to rags'. If the above truly comes to fruition, maintaining that 5th position as the world largest economy ranked by GDP sounds like a monumental task and in actual fact, staying in as one of the top 10 world economies will be an achievement in itself, at least for a number of years, if not decades.  All the best, just don't screw up the global market too much please.

[Ozymandias]

2 hours ago, Aaron2016 said:

Like I said.  Hard to get out.

 

Hard to get out because of yourselves, not because of the EU.

[Unusual Tournament]

10 hours ago, spud the mackem said:

Steve do you honestly believe that , because I think that May has chucked a spanner in the works , she is a Remainer from the start and doesn't want us out, the agreement she made with the E.U. was/is the one giving the E.U. the upper hand and she tried to sell that to Brexit M.P's and that's why we are having all this in fighting in the present Gov't. She capitulated to their demands and therefor I class her as a Traitor to the British public , this will drag on as long as the E.U. want it to .

did May capitulate or did she negotiate from a dead end position? i don't think she had a choice BUT what she did have a say over was how she dealt with not just the recalcitrant's in her party by with the entire political process and nation. she delayed and ran down the clock. bought time for new ideas and above all made sure that hard brexit was never going to be an option. i think May definitely chucked a spanner in the works for hard brexiteers. 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Captain Risky

[RAyMO]

5 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

did May capitulate or did she negotiate from a dead end position? i don't think she had a choice BUT what she did have a say over was how she dealt with not just the recalcitrant's in her party by with the entire political process and nation. she delayed and ran down the clock. bought time for new ideas and above all made sure that hard brexit was never going to be an option. i think May definitely chucked a spanner in the works for hard brexiteers. 

I think this ^ gives May too much kudos, well at lest if you think it was a "considered" strategy on her part. May's only aim was to have May's deal accepted. I think her Brexit strategy has been hugely Narcissistic from the outset.

[bee]

On 3/26/2019 at 2:12 PM, stevewinn said:

Here's the 'yoof' on their way to march in London.

 

 

7 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

Hard to get out because of yourselves, not because of the EU.

 

The EU isn't an organization outside and separate from the member countries....

The EU within the UK - (the EU Fifth Column, if you like...) ... are making it hard, very hard to leave.. 

With an assortment of big hitters like Tony Blair, Yvette Cooper, Hilary Benn, Ken Clarke....etc
and the resident EU  'army' like Titania and the Chester Europeans...  the EU are fighting the battle
to Remain .... from the inside .....

 

 

 

[Unusual Tournament]

29 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

I think this ^ gives May too much kudos, well at lest if you think it was a "considered" strategy on her part. May's only aim was to have May's deal accepted. I think her Brexit strategy has been hugely Narcissistic from the outset.

maybe. I'm constantly on opposing side's to stevewinn but he's theoretically right on where brexit should be headed. it was supposed to be May's plan or leave without a deal. instead we find that there are other options all of a sudden. many more. the question here is was this by design or just a series of unfortunate events? 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Captain Risky

[Space Commander Travis]

Happy Brexit day everyone!!  

 

What's that?

Oh.  

[RAyMO]

1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

it was supposed to be May's plan or leave without a deal.

surely it was supposed to be a plan that optimised  relationships and trade, and maintained the integrity of the UK. Something Mays deal was never capable off.

[Unusual Tournament]

30 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

surely it was supposed to be a plan that optimised  relationships and trade, and maintained the integrity of the UK. Something Mays deal was never capable off.

i agree that May's plan was a bad compromise. not much of a compromise when the UK gave and the EU took. funny that the brexiteers made promises the EU discarded and yet they're attacking the lopsided compromises May agreed to.  

but thats what happens when you hold a terrible poker hand.

[RAyMO]

1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

but thats what happens when you hold a terrible poker hand

Or play the game deliberately blindfolded. It was NOT the EU that somehow defeated the UK Government, it was Mrs May who did this single handed. She threw away a majority by appealing for a bigger majority and got knocked back, she failed to realise that a minority government cannot govern like Blair or Thatcher in their years of 3 digit majorities. She failed to understand the House of commons, which as the party manifestos showed, was in favour of Brexit, provided the right Brexit could be determined. 

Mrs May owns the failure that has been Brexit up to now.

Edited March 29, 2019 by RAyMO