Opening gambits in EU / UK exit negotiations;

[LV-426]

55 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

People that refuse to believe that the sun actually set on the empire.

This is YOUR biased view of Brexit, Risky, as you've demonstrated again and again and again and again...

For those of us who actually live here it's about wanting to be a stong, independent, democratic nation that has good relations with its neighbours, but isn't dictated to by them on how to run our own affairs.

It's not really rocket science is it? It's the same principles people adopt in business, personal relationships, etc.

Maybe you should take a look in the mirror and ask yourself who really has a problem letting go of the British Empire here?

[Space Commander Travis]

11 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

Didn’t say it was stupid, just predictable. actually nostalgic for the past is a better discription. People that refuse to believe that the sun actually set on the empire. don’t get me wrong dreaming of the past is great but reality shouldn’t be over looked. 

But the idea behind the EU was originally for a trading community, as you said yourself, but then it moved inexorably towards a federalist union. You asked whether the former was not what the brexiteers yearned for a return to. How is that dreaming of the great days of empire? Is moving inexorably towards a federalist superstate the natural development of humanity, and so it's living in rosy-tinted nostalgia for the past to try to resist the inevitable process of history?  

[stevewinn]

12 hours ago, LV-426 said:

This is YOUR biased view of Brexit, Risky, as you've demonstrated again and again and again and again...

For those of us who actually live here it's about wanting to be a stong, independent, democratic nation that has good relations with its neighbours, but isn't dictated to by them on how to run our own affairs.

It's not really rocket science is it? It's the same principles people adopt in business, personal relationships, etc.

Maybe you should take a look in the mirror and ask yourself who really has a problem letting go of the British Empire here?

Exactly The Brexit argument needs moving away from Trade and onto Governance.

The Remainers Once again talk about the EU in terms of trade and not governance. Being an independent sovereign nation, able to sit at the top international tables and act in our own national interest overrides such economic considerations. We've seen it with the "leaked" Treasury figures. which were leaked for political gain. another attempt at trying to change public opinion. Even if we take the worse case scenario in these figures of 8% over 15 years is only 0.5% per year and is insignificant compared to the 4% reduction in one year we suffered after the financial crisis of 2007/8 and guess what we still survived….or look at it another way the British Foreign aid Budget is 0.7% so, if we wanted we could cut the Foreign aid budget from 0.7% to 0.2% and the 0.5% Brexit impact is mitigated in full. -

These forecasts are actually good news for Brexit supporters and show just how little economic impact there will be in return for the far bigger prize of self-determination where we are back in control of our immigration, taxation, money, foreign policy, laws and assets (fishing grounds) etc

Politicians long ago gave up trying to predict events, How many people would have predicted the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of Communism ? The financial crash ? A devastating Tsunamis and atomic power stations explosions in Japan ? One could go on. All these things have had an economic impact. None could have been predicted.

That is why the debate should be focusing on is how we wish to be governed. What will our foreign policy be ? What will be our industrial strategy ? What laws are we going to make, repeal or amend ? All these things we can do for ourselves and in our own national interest and all will have an impact. Staying in the EU, the Single Market and Customs Union, or even following / shadowing them will be a disaster. We will not be a true independent sovereign nation, something the EU (not necessarily the rEU27) fears most.

Having a success country outside the EU will show others that the EU is not a good idea. They too will want either special treatment or, want reforms that take back powers from the EU. Losing the UK is bad enough, seeing the whole project begin to unravel is their worst nightmare, hence why they seek to avoid us leaving or doing well.

In my last post i mentioned second rate politicians. look at these two numpties on the Daily Politics with Andrew Neil.  This is the calibre of todays politicians, what worse one of them is International Trade minister.

 

..

 

 

[bee]

19 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

The Remainers Once again talk about the EU in terms of trade and not governance.

They KNOW that they have to concentrate on trade and not governance because otherwise the general public will
start to take an even harder line against being in the EU - 

I'm sure that from the moment the referendum result came in this was decided... to continue with Project Fear regarding
trade and steer well away from governance issues...  

[Unusual Tournament]

2 hours ago, Vlad the Mighty said:

But the idea behind the EU was originally for a trading community, as you said yourself, but then it moved inexorably towards a federalist union. You asked whether the former was not what the brexiteers yearned for a return to. How is that dreaming of the great days of empire? Is moving inexorably towards a federalist superstate the natural development of humanity, and so it's living in rosy-tinted nostalgia for the past to try to resist the inevitable process of history?  

correct about the EU morphing into a federalist union and i have always said that the UK should control its own destiny. but debate requires supported facts when describing the causes and effects leading up to the present situation.

you can't seriously suggest that a Daily Mirror take on British history should go unchallenged. where do you draw the line on such hogwash? put up a link so i can cross check claims which i see very few if any. i have put up historical fact which is ignored. so when one poster waffle on about Britannia every chance they get what other conclusions can one reasonably make?  

[Unusual Tournament]

13 hours ago, LV-426 said:

This is YOUR biased view of Brexit, Risky, as you've demonstrated again and again and again and again...

For those of us who actually live here it's about wanting to be a stong, independent, democratic nation that has good relations with its neighbours, but isn't dictated to by them on how to run our own affairs.

It's not really rocket science is it? It's the same principles people adopt in business, personal relationships, etc.

Maybe you should take a look in the mirror and ask yourself who really has a problem letting go of the British Empire here?

 again, my comments are not directed at you so why do you feel the need to to directing anything back to me. generally i don't enter into this debate like i once did, preferring rather to read and form my own opinions from a safe distance...lol but steve should stop making outlandish remarks without being about to back them up like the Berlin decree and even more recently his take on Britains pre EU GDP and state of the UK economy. 

if in fact you feel the need to support steve try posting a link to support his claims instead of going full bodyguard.  

[Grey Area]

1 hour ago, Captain Risky said:

 again, my comments are not directed at you so why do you feel the need to to directing anything back to me. generally i don't enter into this debate like i once did, preferring rather to read and form my own opinions from a safe distance...lol but steve should stop making outlandish remarks without being about to back them up like the Berlin decree and even more recently his take on Britains pre EU GDP and state of the UK economy. 

if in fact you feel the need to support steve try posting a link to support his claims instead of going full bodyguard.  

If you and Steve want to have a measuring contest then get a room, do some PM's or something.  If you post a response on an open forum, expect it to be responded to by anyone, as is their prerogative.

I have locked horns with Steve on a few occasions and found him to be stubborn (no offense Steve) and immovable, but these are his core beliefs and bully to him for that.  While not a Steve fan boy by any stretch of the imagination, I find it quite strange that you keep banging on and on about posting supporting information.  If there is one thing I can say about Steve, his posts are very well put together, always relevant and contain about 5 times more information than any of the other posters I have seen on these boards.

As Steve correctly points out, go and do your own research.  If anyone here posts their opinion and you disagree, then feel free to respond with your own facts.

I support Brexit in all it's hardness.  I support it because I don't want the EU calling the shots in my day to day life, I support it because I don't want the Germans forcing us to take in as many refugees as they say may enter Europe, I support it because I think we can be successful without the EU, I support it because I think it feeds a few political elites at great expense, I support it because I think the EU is a wasteful bureaucracy where a square peg is being forced through a circular hole.  These are my opinions, I aint gonna back them up, but feel free to disagree, just understand that because you disagree doesn't make them any less real for anyone.  

[LV-426]

2 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

 again, my comments are not directed at you so why do you feel the need to to directing anything back to me. generally i don't enter into this debate like i once did, preferring rather to read and form my own opinions from a safe distance...lol but steve should stop making outlandish remarks without being about to back them up like the Berlin decree and even more recently his take on Britains pre EU GDP and state of the UK economy. 

if in fact you feel the need to support steve try posting a link to support his claims instead of going full bodyguard.  

Bodyguard?

What are we? Teenage boys in a playground?

In fact, my response was to your comment to Vlad. I'm pretty sure anyway, that as a grown man, stevewinn can take care of his own online battles

I can't really make my stance any clearer than I have done previously, but I'll give it a shot...

I don't really care whether you start thread after thread of negative views of my country, with headlines in large bold fonts, e.g:

The incredible shrinking Britain [link]

Brexit Britain wants a deal. Europe just wants a clean break [link]

UK 'does not have capacity to strike new trade deals after Brexit' [link]

I don't particularly care that you've made several hundred posts on Brexit, even though you've never set foot in Britian... these are international forums, and everyone is entitled to an opinion.

The thing that really grinds my gears is the utter hypocrisy in your portrayal of Brexit from some kind of jingoistic angle, when it is clearly YOU who have a hang up about Britain and its past colonial connections with your own country. Your posts adopt the moral highground, while completely ignoring your own predjudice.

I, and most of my countrymen have moved forward into the 21st century. Maybe you should give it a try?

[LV-426]

2 hours ago, Grey Area said:

If there is one thing I can say about Steve, his posts are very well put together, always relevant and contain about 5 times more information than any of the other posters I have seen on these boards.

Despite the risk of being accused of somehow politically white knighting steve again, I couldn't agree more.

Few posters on UM present their arguments so well, whether I agree on all points of not.

[ethereal_scout]

The Govt is spending most of its time trying to work out what we are actually a member of. 

[spud the mackem]

Forecasting what may or may not happen in 2 years time by the "experts" is a load of B.S. ....If they're that good can they please forecast which horse is going to win the Grand National next year and who will be its Jockey.If the "expert" can tell me I will back it and share the winnings 50/50.

[Unusual Tournament]

22 hours ago, Grey Area said:

If you and Steve want to have a measuring contest then get a room, do some PM's or something.  If you post a response on an open forum, expect it to be responded to by anyone, as is their prerogative.

I have locked horns with Steve on a few occasions and found him to be stubborn (no offense Steve) and immovable, but these are his core beliefs and bully to him for that.  While not a Steve fan boy by any stretch of the imagination, I find it quite strange that you keep banging on and on about posting supporting information.  If there is one thing I can say about Steve, his posts are very well put together, always relevant and contain about 5 times more information than any of the other posters I have seen on these boards.

As Steve correctly points out, go and do your own research.  If anyone here posts their opinion and you disagree, then feel free to respond with your own facts.

I support Brexit in all it's hardness.  I support it because I don't want the EU calling the shots in my day to day life, I support it because I don't want the Germans forcing us to take in as many refugees as they say may enter Europe, I support it because I think we can be successful without the EU, I support it because I think it feeds a few political elites at great expense, I support it because I think the EU is a wasteful bureaucracy where a square peg is being forced through a circular hole.  These are my opinions, I aint gonna back them up, but feel free to disagree, just understand that because you disagree doesn't make them any less real for anyone.  

Bolded: i accept that steve is a great poster. he almost never flies off the handle which shows he is respectful of others, too. problem is steve is just setting standards and agenda on others by not allowing anything he writes to be dissected and analysed. breaking it down further...  steve is entitled to think what he likes but if you wanna convince me then i need more than a well written nationalist manifesto. 

Red: couldn't agree with you any more. I'm not hostile to steve's beliefs. he's entitled to have them as am i. trying to win an argument almost never convinces anyone and that is not my intention. Like i said 'm not in the business of convincing steve or anyone else but if i get called out then i wanna see something more than 'i read the paper this morning on the train and it said... ' 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2018 by Captain Risky

[Unusual Tournament]

20 hours ago, LV-426 said:

Bodyguard?

What are we? Teenage boys in a playground?

In fact, my response was to your comment to Vlad. I'm pretty sure anyway, that as a grown man, stevewinn can take care of his own online battles

I can't really make my stance any clearer than I have done previously, but I'll give it a shot...

I don't really care whether you start thread after thread of negative views of my country, with headlines in large bold fonts, e.g:

The incredible shrinking Britain [link]

Brexit Britain wants a deal. Europe just wants a clean break [link]

UK 'does not have capacity to strike new trade deals after Brexit' [link]

I don't particularly care that you've made several hundred posts on Brexit, even though you've never set foot in Britian... these are international forums, and everyone is entitled to an opinion.

The thing that really grinds my gears is the utter hypocrisy in your portrayal of Brexit from some kind of jingoistic angle, when it is clearly YOU who have a hang up about Britain and its past colonial connections with your own country. Your posts adopt the moral highground, while completely ignoring your own predjudice.

I, and most of my countrymen have moved forward into the 21st century. Maybe you should give it a try?

if you were alive during viking times you's be over qualified for the berserker brigade.

[stevewinn]

Just a few tweets to highlight the hardwork going on behind the scenes. Antonia Romeo is Permanent Secretary of the Department for International Trade, and she's one of the most capable people in Govt. 

While the EU decides if it wants continued access to the United Kingdoms' Single Market the rest of the world are seizing the opportunities in improving trade and investment here in the UK. what this also shows is how business continues and a reminder trade happens between people, Govt only oils the wheels. The UK's new trade policy will be more open and fluid than that of the EU customs Union making exporting/importing easier,- boosting British commerce and jobs.

 

[Space Commander Travis]

Antonia Romeo? I've never heard of her before.. What a romantic name for a Permanent Secretary of the Department for International Trade.  Mind you, if the fanatically anti-Brexit community can have Lord Adonis ... Adonis was the mortal lover of the goddess Aphrodite in Greek mythology. In Ovid's first-century AD telling of the myth, he was conceived after Aphrodite cursed his mother Myrrha to lust after her own father, King Cinyras of Cyprus.  

[stevewinn]

Boris Johnson speech on Brexit LIve. Might have to skip backwards/or Forwards for start of speech.

 

[stevewinn]

The News that's been doing the rounds for the last few days seems to be true, Remember the EU paper were they wanted the ability to place sanctions on the UK, but also  wanted to be able to do this without going through the Courts bypassing their own ECJ. - Well it was crystal clear No country would ever accept them terms, and the EU was told as much by the British Govt. - It now transpires that the punishment clause as been removed by the EU, this is after Barnier came out to bat for the commission defending the clause. - this change is the third backtrack and so the third time Barnier as been undermined, Its seems pressure was put on the commission by a number of EU countries who didn't agree with the statement. 

This just highlights the fact the EU commission is at odd's with its members and this isnt the first time or area where they have differences. I've said it before member countries are not going to sacrifice themselves for the good of the Commission. its why we hear the utterances from the likes of Juncker, Tusk, and Barnier about unity and remaining united. They fear divide and rule. truth is the fault lines are of the EU's own making.

It also seems the EU Commission and Barnier want to keep revisiting what they think is their strongest hand that is,- the Irish Border issue, why doesn't one of the BBC's finest reporters or someone explain that currently the Irish border is a VAT and currency border, and Goods and services crossing the border require transaction paperwork or electronic filings to handle the different tax regimes between the UK and ROI and any currency adjustments.

If we end up with the WTO model for Brexit, it will be possible to add a customs tariff line to the documentation that's already generated for a trade transaction across the border, In evidence both HMRC and their Irish equivalent have confirmed that it can be done electronically with no physical border. But the EU says NO. The EU uses the figures: N.Ireland trade with the South accounts for 37% or £3.3bn of trade per year - and this is justification for N.Ireland to remain part of the Customs Union. but outside of the UK which is an attack on British territoral integrity - Yet the same EU fails to mention that N.Ireland trade with the rest of the UK is worth £13.8bn, over three times as much, in the grand scheme of things, N.Ireland trade with the south represents 0.1% of UK GDP. Do the EU really think we can be held to 'ransom' on such figures? The fact the EU see this as their strongest hand shows just how many jokers in the pack they really hold. -

- If this issue was left to both the British Govt and Irish Govt it would be resolved instantly as we've proved in the past with The free movement, rights and benefits afforded by the UK to Irish nationals since 1922. The Irish people have long realised the EU as decided to weaponise the border issue for the EU's own political gain, This is the same EU that a few years ago handed the Irish spending Budget to the German Parliament to look over and approve, the German Govt/ministry seen it even before Dáil Éireann or the Irish citizens had even seen it.

Moving on....The British Foreign secretary speech yesterday. Its seems Boris as upset Juncker and Co, using the words Federalist Europe or "overarching European state " It seems Juncker as denied he supports a United states of Europe. "I am strictly against a European superstate" - Yet Juncker was doing a speech exactly at the same time as Boris, what was Junckers speech about, after He's just said he doesn't support a United states of Europe - yet the irony wont be lost when people realise his speech was about directly electing the EU President. -  This does two things, it takes away the ability of the member states to appoint the next EU president but also takes away power from the EU council. it gives all the power to one person.

 

 

 

[Unusual Tournament]

On 2/14/2018 at 1:04 AM, Vlad the Mighty said:

Antonia Romeo? I've never heard of her before.. What a romantic name for a Permanent Secretary of the Department for International Trade.  Mind you, if the fanatically anti-Brexit community can have Lord Adonis ... Adonis was the mortal lover of the goddess Aphrodite in Greek mythology. In Ovid's first-century AD telling of the myth, he was conceived after Aphrodite cursed his mother Myrrha to lust after her own father, King Cinyras of Cyprus.  

no need to verify the credentials of Antonia Romero, nor her love of the old adage of one door closes another opens. thank god its on twitter. 

[hetrodoxly]

I must have missed this on the news, from the horses mouth.

 

[LV-426]

10 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

I must have missed this on the news, from the horses mouth.

You must have been checking the BBC site.

They had to drop the story to make room for news of Tom Daley and his husband sharing a sonogram picture of their baby...

[stevewinn]

Its one of the best performances i've seen from Theresa May, she looked confident and answered with authority. You get the impression Brexit means Brexit. up until this interview she's came across lukewarm and tentative when answering questions on Brexit. I think this hardened approach will be noted in Brussels.

I do wish she'd stop UK courting of European security, busily reassuring EU members the UK will continue to assist and provide assets on security and defence. - Well im afraid  the way the EU commission as acted through Barnier, throughout these negotiations this goodwill should be pulled off the table.The UK is part of the best intelligence alliance in the world in the Five Eyes (FVEY). Germany alone as mounting security issues with the 2 million unknowns they've recently added to their population #Allwelcome, and that's before we add the extra 2.2 million unknowns now roaming across non-existent frontiers of Europe. 

pull the ****ing plug. go Brexit and if the EU would like a trade deal, they can join the queue, they've got our number. We'd be better off spending our time and energy with willing partners and in the meantime turn the payment taps off, two year transition my bottom.

[keithisco]

I have to agree with you Steve... we are essentially giving away intelligence they may have been obtained at great human cost and handing it over to organisations that have barely disguised contempt for the UK and its people. For too long we have provided this intelligence for free to other nations that do not pull their weight when it comes to common defence, and where Germany is concerned has undermined everyone's security in the whole of the European theatre. I am not advocating immediate withdrawal from Security sharing, but I am suggesting that the EU has enjoyed (if it can be called that) virtual free access to Five Eyes data whilst contributing very little in return.  

Waiting for the next humiliation at the hands of the EU "Negotiators" is like having your teeth pulled without anaesthetic, the UK is better than that, and deserves to be treated with respect. If that is not possible then it is time to turn our collective backs on the whole corrupt EU.

Edited February 18, 2018 by keithisco

[stevewinn]

3 minutes ago, keithisco said:

I have to agree with you Steve... we are essentially giving away intelligence they may have been obtained at great human cost and handing it over to organisations that have barely disguised contempt for the UK and its people. For too long we have provided this intelligence for free to other nations that do not pull their weight when it comes to common defence, and where Germany is concerned has undermined everyone's security in the whole of the European theatre. I am not advocating immediate withdrawal from Security sharing, but I am suggesting that the EU has enjoyed (if it can be called that) virtual free access to Five Eyes data whilst contributing very little in return.  

Waiting for the next humiliation at the hands of the EU "Negotiators" is like having your teeth pulled without anaesthetic.

our contribution to the security of EU should be as a third country done through our standing NATO commitments. no more special favours. such as having the only Heavy lift capability in Europe - a sign of our good will has been in assisting the French army in their fight against Islamic fighters in Mali, and this year the UK will be sending Chinook Helicopters and 150 troops (RAF regiment) - other notable assistance as been the involvement of our Astute class Submarines loitering off both the Western and Northern coasts of Africa, interdiction of forms of electronic communications. Also used is the listening posts in Gibraltar & Cyprus. giving unparalleled coverage from the Levant in the eastern Med to the Gulf of Guinea in the Atlantic. this seems to escape some leaders in the EU institution. maybe they are just not aware and fixated on Political punishment.

[Black Monk]

The 17.4 million people who voted for Brexit are, according to many Remainers, thick simpletons who "didn't know what they were voting for" and that academics - scientists, economists, lawyers, historians, philosophers etc - all voted to stay in the EU "because they are cleverer".

But now, a group of 41 acamedics has got together to destroy this view - they all support Brexit...

Brains for Brexit! Meet the historians, philosophers, QCs and ex-MI6 boss who make up the 41 top-thinkers fighting the tide of Remain 'propaganda': http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5406723/Meet-brains-Brexit-fighting-remain-propaganda.html#ixzz57Y171HZz

DOMINIC LAWSON: I greatly admire the academics who've come out for Brexit but they'll need thick skins and courage: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5407109/DOMINIC-LAWSON-academics-Briefings-Brexit-website.html#ixzz57Y6wBPkw

Edited February 19, 2018 by Black Monk

[hetrodoxly]

3 hours ago, Black Monk said:

The 17.4 million people who voted for Brexit are, according to many Remainers, thick simpletons who "didn't know what they were voting for" and that academics - scientists, economists, lawyers, historians, philosophers etc - all voted to stay in the EU "because they are cleverer".

But now, a group of 41 acamedics has got together to destroy this view - they all support Brexit...

Brains for Brexit! Meet the historians, philosophers, QCs and ex-MI6 boss who make up the 41 top-thinkers fighting the tide of Remain 'propaganda': http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5406723/Meet-brains-Brexit-fighting-remain-propaganda.html#ixzz57Y171HZz

DOMINIC LAWSON: I greatly admire the academics who've come out for Brexit but they'll need thick skins and courage: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-5407109/DOMINIC-LAWSON-academics-Briefings-Brexit-website.html#ixzz57Y6wBPkw

I've searched the BBC website and Sky and guess what no mention of it.