Opening gambits in EU / UK exit negotiations;

[Space Commander Travis]

13 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

It seems like fracture lines are already widening in the EU, Stevewinn. 

Quite apart with the ongoing financial difficulties in Italy and Greece, it appears that Hungary, Czech and Poland are on the verge of being massively fined by the EU for refusing to abide by Brussels-imposed refugee quotas. 

Yup... you heard right. They are being COMPELLED by the EU to accept a quota of refugees (who - in practice - will never leave). The EU is over-riding their domestic immigration policy, and they are refusing to comply.

And it is not a "one-off" fine... it is rolling weekly or daily until they submit. Or until they leave !

Interesting perspective here on the EU elite's attitude towards Hungary's leader .. http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2017/august/08/reports-of-hungary-s-slide-into-dictatorship-have-been-exaggerated/

and that the EU Elite's attitude might not be entirely unrelated to his position vis-a-vis refugees. 

[RoofGardener]

Perhaps MvD, perhaps.

It doesn't help that Hungary - or rather, Viktor Orban (the Prime Minister) is very much Nationalistic. He has shut down or marginalised foreign NGO's, 'foreign' churches, and favoured Hungarian companies when handing out government contracts. He has committed the utter Blasphemy of prioritising ethnic Hungarians over all other groups, and Hungarian culture and traditions over any 'interlopers'.

Such cultural and ethnic Nationalism is absolute anathema to the European Project, which envisages all national distinctions being gradually eroded until we all become "European Nationality". Accordingly, Viktor Orban is the Antichrist. 

[stevewinn]

13 hours ago, godnodog said:

Using refer3ndum of course, but then again I dont want to see crap like I've seen in Britains refrerendum that lead to Brexit, and I dont mean the decision toleave the EU, I mean the crap said by stay and leave propaganda.

This is why I said the process should be slow.

Well, if they hold Referendums across the EU on becoming a Federation, we can sleep easy in our beds knowing the dream of a Federation will never happen.

[godnodog]

4 hours ago, stevewinn said:

Well, if they hold Referendums across the EU on becoming a Federation, we can sleep easy in our beds knowing the dream of a Federation will never happen.

Or we can have the dream becoming  true of seeing nationalism starting to actually die in Continental Europe.

Again, I argue that this needs to be done really slowly, cause of nationalism like seen in France and in Uk recently. If done properly and legitimately things will end up in a Federation, if not another european war will start again because of nationalism reasons, like Ex-Yugoslavia

Edited August 9, 2017 by godnodog

[Space Commander Travis]

17 minutes ago, godnodog said:

Or we can have the dream becoming  true of seeing nationalism starting to actually die in Continental Europe.

Again, I argue that this needs to be done really slowly, cause of nationalism like seen in France and in Uk recently. If done properly and legitimately things will end up in a Federation, if not another european war will start again because of nationalism reasons, like Ex-Yugoslavia

Sounds like the EU Leaders have been listening to too much John & Yoko. I don't think dissolving nationalities would be the solution to conflict and friction in the world; I don't think it is nations that are responsible to that, as some argue, what causes conflict is politicians. Imagine there's no politicians; it's easy if you try.  

[RoofGardener]

1 hour ago, godnodog said:

Or we can have the dream becoming  true of seeing nationalism starting to actually die in Continental Europe.

Again, I argue that this needs to be done really slowly, cause of nationalism like seen in France and in Uk recently. If done properly and legitimately things will end up in a Federation, if not another european war will start again because of nationalism reasons, like Ex-Yugoslavia

Dream ? 

DREAM ? 

What is this dream ? In what way do you feel that nationalism is.. undesirable ? In what way do you support cultural genocide ? In what way is it undesirable to be British, or French ? Or Gypsy or Catelonian ? 

In what way is cultural diversity something to be abhorred and "Federated" ? 

Are you happy for the European Commission to define what is "acceptable" when it comes to culture ? 

 

Edited August 9, 2017 by RoofGardener

[stevewinn]

1 hour ago, godnodog said:

Or we can have the dream becoming  true of seeing nationalism starting to actually die in Continental Europe.

Again, I argue that this needs to be done really slowly, cause of nationalism like seen in France and in Uk recently. If done properly and legitimately things will end up in a Federation, if not another european war will start again because of nationalism reasons, like Ex-Yugoslavia

When you say really slow, you mean so people are not actually aware? like what happened from 1973 to 2017 or do you mean really slow, to a point were there's enough support to secure the desired outcome in a referendum vote.

A bit like: Decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back. :Jean-Claude Juncker EU President.

Moving on,
 

Quote

 

EU Commissioners €500,000 expenses bill for just two months.

Eye-watering travel bill racked up by unelected European Commissioners was finally made public today after campaigners waged a three year battle to access their expenses claims. The hard-won disclosure reveals the 28 Commissioners spent almost half a million Euro on visits during the first two months of 2016 alone (the only period for which documents have been released). A dossier of claims submitted by Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker includes an astonishing €27,000 bill for a two-day trip to Rome on a private jet. 

Juncker, based in Brussels, also claimed nearly €2000 for a one night trip to Berlin (a single ticket on a budget airline costs around €25 Euro). He even claimed for minor excursions despite his €324,377 (£275,275) salary: he was paid €48 in ‘daily allowances’ to attend a meeting in Germany with Martin Schulz.

The EU Commission has resisted further disclosures covering the remainder of 2016, saying this would impose an “excessive administrative burden”. For three years the EU has tried to block transparency on Commissioners’ expenses at every turn. Helen Darbishire, Executive Director of Access Info Europe, said:

 

 

 

 

 

[RoofGardener]

Well, I wouldn't necessarily begrudge that half-million travel expense. 

After all, we must remember that the entire European Parliament has to pack itself - and ALL of its relevant documents - into a series of trucks and trains EVERY MONTH and migrate from Brussels to Strasbourg. Because under the constitution, they must enact EU business in Strasbourg.. for 4 days every month. 

.. and then they put them all back in the trucks and trains, and move back to Brussels in readyness for the next Monday's business. 

How many people knew that ?  

[keithisco]

Just to add a little more flavour to the Gravy (Train).  This from Feb 2016:

Quote

 

EU Force One: Juncker commutes to Strasbourg by private jet

Jean-Claude Juncker and his top officials fly by private jet between Brussels and Strasbourg - a journey of just 220 miles - as EU forks out for €12m air deal.

Jean-Claude Juncker and his top officials fly by private jet between Brussels and the European Parliament in Strasbourg just 220 miles away, documents show.

The European Commission - which paid €12.6 m for the air deal four years ago- has access to a fleet of six jets, which it dubs “air taxis”, to ferry Mr Juncker and other high-ranking officials around the world.

It includes a £4.3 million, seven-passenger Cessna Citation jet to make journey to Strasbourg for the parliaments’ monthly four-day sittings, despite the fact that daily commercial flights operate between the two cities.

The parliament spends around £200,000 to charter two express trains to take officials, MEPs and others from Brussels to Strasbourg on a Monday morning and back on a Thursday afternoon. Their papers are taken in black plastic crates in eight lorries.

In addition, well-placed sources say, the Parliament also charters a large aeroplane each Wednesday afternoon for around 100 staff who wish to return to Brussels early. It spares them the public train, which takes nearly six hours due to frequent stops.

 

...and there is lots more here:

[stevewinn]

and what's worse this is just the tip of the iceberg.

[eugenonegin]

4 hours ago, stevewinn said:

and what's worse this is just the tip of the iceberg.

It is the tip of the iceberg. Slowly, finances and resources are being drawn away from the UK:http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/bank-of-england-deputys-brexit-warning-is-strong-stuff/ar-AApKMOI?li=AA54rU&ocid=uie11msnhpl

We really need to call a halt to Brexit to reconsider everything, and I'm glad you agree at last!

Edited August 9, 2017 by eugeneonegin

[Space Commander Travis]

12 hours ago, keithisco said:

EU Force One: Juncker commutes to Strasbourg by private jet

Jean-Claude Juncker and his top officials fly by private jet between Brussels and Strasbourg - a journey of just 220 miles - as EU forks out for €12m air deal.

Jean-Claude Juncker and his top officials fly by private jet between Brussels and the European Parliament in Strasbourg just 220 miles away, documents show.

The European Commission - which paid €12.6 m for the air deal four years ago- has access to a fleet of six jets, which it dubs “air taxis”, to ferry Mr Juncker and other high-ranking officials around the world.

It includes a £4.3 million, seven-passenger Cessna Citation jet to make journey to Strasbourg for the parliaments’ monthly four-day sittings, despite the fact that daily commercial flights operate between the two cities.

For M. Junkers' information: Bruxelles to Strasbourg by Train from €25 in just 4h12m

[RoofGardener]

7 hours ago, eugeneonegin said:

It is the tip of the iceberg. Slowly, finances and resources are being drawn away from the UK:http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/bank-of-england-deputys-brexit-warning-is-strong-stuff/ar-AApKMOI?li=AA54rU&ocid=uie11msnhpl

We really need to call a halt to Brexit to reconsider everything, and I'm glad you agree at last!

Just one EEENTSY bitty problem here Eugeneonegin.... that article does NOT say anything about ".. finances and resources... being drawn away..". It just says - in a nutshell... "gosh, the Bank of England will have a LOT of administrative and planning work to do".

Tell me, if an election results in a government that you don't personally approve of, do you call for a "halt to government" ?

[godnodog]

20 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Sounds like the EU Leaders have been listening to too much John & Yoko. I don't think dissolving nationalities would be the solution to conflict and friction in the world; I don't think it is nations that are responsible to that, as some argue, what causes conflict is politicians. Imagine there's no politicians; it's easy if you try.  

Didnt said it did, but the EU and its predecessors have been doing a good job at it....so far, overall I agree with your statement

[godnodog]

19 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Dream ? 

DREAM ? 

What is this dream ? In what way do you feel that nationalism is.. undesirable ? In what way do you support cultural genocide ? In what way is it undesirable to be British, or French ? Or Gypsy or Catelonian ? 

In what way is cultural diversity something to be abhorred and "Federated" ? 

Are you happy for the European Commission to define what is "acceptable" when it comes to culture ? 

 

Read what I wrote again, and make up things I didnt wrote

[godnodog]

19 hours ago, stevewinn said:

When you say really slow, you mean so people are not actually aware? like what happened from 1973 to 2017 or do you mean really slow, to a point were there's enough support to secure the desired outcome in a referendum vote.

A bit like: Decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back. :Jean-Claude Juncker EU President.

Moving on,
 

 

 

 

Yes slowly like in decades if necessary. Where did I mention something that even resembles "so people are not actually aware"?

"Decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens" -  gee sounds like any politician in the UK or Portugal

 

Regarding "expenditures" (did I write this right?), name one country where this has not happened ever? I blame news media outlets for notmaking a fuss about this outrageous crap. 

Even the EU parliament in Brussels does crap like this, have you people ever wondered whats, for example, on wine menu for the eurodeputies? Etc etc.

Folks I am not defending the EU as it is, I am defending the general concept of a united europe, where nationalities are ok when it comes to culture and identities, etc, but any eu country alone is a midget in the world stage, the UK will not be on the same level to the EU, even if the EU is currently a dysfunctional "family".

 

[keithisco]

The BBC, not having a real negative Brexit story today, has manufactured this one:
 

Quote

 

Mr Chapman's interview follows a call on Twitter for Conservatives and others to jump ship to a new party and for a new referendum in 2019.

"Past time for sensible MPs in all parties to admit Brexit is a catastrophe, come together In new party if need be, and reverse it #euref19," he tweeted on 8 August

 

Source:

...whilst totally ignoring this one in their headlines:

Quote

Since the EU referendum UK exports have increased by 11.4%, as British goods and services are in demand across the world, ONS figures show

Source:

What do you say AliBongo?

 

[itsnotoutthere]

Exclusive: This groundbreaking study reveals that many Remainers want the UK to have full control of immigration and are less enthusiastic about single market membership.

"A groundbreaking project by the London School of Economics and Oxford University surveying more than 20,000 people – which BuzzFeed News has seen exclusively ahead of its official publication – reveals that when the British public are asked in detail what they want from the negotiations, there is more support for harder Brexit options because Leavers and a significant number of Remainers back them"

"The results imply relatively low levels of support for the policies that would amount to a "soft" Brexit – single market membership, ongoing EU payments, free movement, and the ECJ: 67% of respondents would prefer "no deal" to soft Brexit, while 68% would opt for hard over soft Brexit."

"Our results imply that Leavers are united in strongly favouring a ‘hard Brexit’ because they are generally more likely to oppose any deal that involves continued freedom of movement of people, jurisdiction of the ECJ, and a very large ‘divorce settlement’," she said.

link:- https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/remain-and-leave-voters-are-surprisingly-united-on-backing?utm_term=.vaVnGgBXJ#.ue2QDN6Wx

 

Hmmm..... didn't see this reported on the BBC or in the Guardian.....wonder why

[itsnotoutthere]

58 minutes ago, keithisco said:

The BBC, not having a real negative Brexit story today, has manufactured this one:
 

Source:

...whilst totally ignoring this one in their headlines:

Source:

What do you say AliBongo?

 

And this is why the BBC will never be impartial on the subject :-

The millions in EU funding the BBC tried to hide

Over the last three years the BBC has secretly obtained millions of pounds in grants from the European Union. Licence fee payers might assume that the Corporation would have been compelled to disclose the source of this money in its annual reports, but they bear no trace of it specifically. In the latest set of accounts, for example, these funds are simply referred to as ‘other grant income’.

Instead of making an open declaration, the BBC’s successful lobbying for this money had to be prised out of it using a Freedom of Information (FoI) request lodged for The Spectator, proving that there was never any danger of the state broadcaster’s bosses volunteering it willingly.

LINK :- https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2014/02/the-millions-in-eu-funding-the-bbc-tried-to-hide/

That, & their blatant left wing bias.

[eugenonegin]

8 hours ago, itsnotoutthere said:

Exclusive: This groundbreaking study reveals that many Remainers want the UK to have full control of immigration and are less enthusiastic about single market membership.

"A groundbreaking project by the London School of Economics and Oxford University surveying more than 20,000 people – which BuzzFeed News has seen exclusively ahead of its official publication – reveals that when the British public are asked in detail what they want from the negotiations, there is more support for harder Brexit options because Leavers and a significant number of Remainers back them"

"The results imply relatively low levels of support for the policies that would amount to a "soft" Brexit – single market membership, ongoing EU payments, free movement, and the ECJ: 67% of respondents would prefer "no deal" to soft Brexit, while 68% would opt for hard over soft Brexit."

"Our results imply that Leavers are united in strongly favouring a ‘hard Brexit’ because they are generally more likely to oppose any deal that involves continued freedom of movement of people, jurisdiction of the ECJ, and a very large ‘divorce settlement’," she said.

link:- https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/remain-and-leave-voters-are-surprisingly-united-on-backing?utm_term=.vaVnGgBXJ#.ue2QDN6Wx

 

Hmmm..... didn't see this reported on the BBC or in the Guardian.....wonder why

I think the greatest problem is that no-one knew the nitty-gritty that Brexit would involve when they were asked the original referendum question. It sounded simple- leave and save money, or remain and pay endlessly to bail out spendthrift governments.

Maybe lots, or most people, will or would change their minds when we know more.

Maybe the Brexit result would have been 100% leave had we known more than the propaganda that was being shoved around. There is no really reliable source of information because of all the vested interests.

[eugenonegin]

Of course, this is the Britain we are proud of:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4783378/Mail-asks-Carolann-Gallon-sank-sex-trafficking.html

[Space Commander Travis]

4 hours ago, eugeneonegin said:

Of course, this is the Britain we are proud of:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4783378/Mail-asks-Carolann-Gallon-sank-sex-trafficking.html

right, and what's that got to do with brexit, unless it's just another example of the stupid Northerners that all voted for it, Ali?

[eugenonegin]

52 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

right, and what's that got to do with brexit, unless it's just another example of the stupid Northerners that all voted for it, Ali?

What is "Ali"?Is it a slang word I am unaware of?

[Space Commander Travis]

Don't try to act all unknowing. I think we've seen through your disguise. Bring back the green alien! That was rather cute.

[eugenonegin]

1 hour ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

right, and what's that got to do with brexit, unless it's just another example of the stupid Northerners that all voted for it, Ali?

I don't think it helpful to suggest Northerners are stupid, nor that they are responsible for Brexit

For your information, one of the highest "leave" votes was recorded in Oxfordshire, I believe.