Opening gambits in EU / UK exit negotiations;

[stevewinn]

1 hour ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Don't try to act all unknowing. I think we've seen through your disguise. Bring back the green alien! That was rather cute.

@alibongo posts Disappeared on April 25, nine days later @eugeneonegin is welcomed to the forum. besides having the same writing style they visit the same topics of interest.

[itsnotoutthere]

9 hours ago, eugeneonegin said:

I think the greatest problem is that no-one knew the nitty-gritty that Brexit would involve when they were asked the original referendum question. It sounded simple- leave and save money, or remain and pay endlessly to bail out spendthrift governments.

Maybe lots, or most people, will or would change their minds when we know more.

Maybe the Brexit result would have been 100% leave had we known more than the propaganda that was being shoved around. There is no really reliable source of information because of all the vested interests.

Er...no it wasn't, it was a lot more straight forward than that. It was...do you want to remain in the European Union or do you want to leave.

The people voted to leave. End of.

 

[Black Monk]

The majority of Remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of its borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice and pay little or nothing to leave the EU.

A major survey of more than 20,000 people revealed that an overwhelming majority of voters now prefer a so-called "hard Brexit" to a soft one...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/11/remain-voters-now-back-taking-control-borders-leaving-ecj-paying/

[eugenonegin]

1 hour ago, itsnotoutthere said:

Er...no it wasn't, it was a lot more straight forward than that. It was...do you want to remain in the European Union or do you want to leave.

The people voted to leave. End of.

 

Except that now a number of Remainers and Leavers are changing their minds, and having second thoughts.

[keithisco]

2 hours ago, eugeneonegin said:

Except that now a number of Remainers and Leavers are changing their minds, and having second thoughts.

I think you will find that its pretty much one way-those remainers that have changed their minds are now asking to leave all EU-Institutions. Only a tiny, getting tinier each day, number of people are actually calling for a second referendum. 

[stevewinn]

4 hours ago, itsnotoutthere said:

Er...no it wasn't, it was a lot more straight forward than that. It was...do you want to remain in the European Union or do you want to leave.

The people voted to leave. End of.

 

There is no way back, Article 50 as been served. March 2019, we'll have left the EU.

The European Union officials have failed to understand the British, the EU is once again misjudging the mood of UK voters. The EU seems to think if it delays and creates difficulties the UK may think again. They underestimated the UK voters in the referendum, and are in danger of doing so again. Indeed, their current attitude reinforces my view and that of many UK voters that we made exactly the right choice in voting Leave. Every time the EU makes demands or try to complicate the negotiations it only highlights just how far our subservience to EU lawmaking, courts and institutions has gone, something hard line pro EU campaigners always denied prior to the referendum result.

As someone who was involved in too many debates on this topic, i was regularly accused of exaggerating the influence and power of Brussels, which was just a kind of large free trade arrangement according to many of its europhiles Now they tell us it is all so complex it makes getting out all but impossible.

Edited August 12, 2017 by stevewinn

[Space Commander Travis]

The Spanish govt. seem to be getting as worried as the EU that others might be encouraged by the Brits if they succeed in breaking free, and employing much the same tactics...

San Sebastian (Spain) (AFP) - Hundreds of Basques turned out on the streets Saturday in support of Catalonia and its planned referendum on independence from Madrid, an ambition long fought for by Basque separatists.

Otegi was referring to the northeastern region of Catalonia, where the regional, separatist government is planning to hold an independence referendum on October 1.

But the central government in Madrid categorically refuses such a vote which it says threatens Spain's unity, and has warned Catalan leaders they face reprisals if they go ahead with it.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/basques-march-solidarity-catalonia-independence-vote-174602442.html

[stevewinn]

The UK government is about to publish a series of position papers on the EU negotiations. It is doing so in part in response to the EU’s tactic of publishing lots of papers about principles and problems, whilst refusing to tackle the issues that matter or to set out the EU wishes.

It also seems the Irish border issue and free movement of people is none issue, in the last round of talks the British Civil Servants pointed out to the EU that the 1922 Act  and  1923 Act (known as common travel Area) and 1948 Act  All pre-date the EU and are enshrined in EU treaties. So legal. but watch the EU throw a spanner in the works as they further try to stall and stifle the negotiations.

Its only early days with these negotiations which will run into early spring 2019. I guess we wait for our Government to publish the papers.

 

[itsnotoutthere]

On 12/08/2017 at 0:14 PM, eugeneonegin said:

Except that now a number of Remainers and Leavers are changing their minds, and having second thoughts.

Yes, you would come to that conclusion if your only news sources er...sorry, opinion pieces were from The Guardian and the BBC (both of whom have vested interests), but outside of that bubble things are very different.

Edited August 13, 2017 by itsnotoutthere

[eugenonegin]

4 minutes ago, itsnotoutthere said:

Yes, you would come to that conclusion if your only news sources were The Guardian and the BBC (both of whom have vested interests) but outside of that bubble things are very different.

It was the Telegraph article Black Monk quoted:

The majority of Remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of its borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice and pay little or nothing to leave the EU.

A major survey of more than 20,000 people revealed that an overwhelming majority of voters now prefer a so-called "hard Brexit" to a soft one...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/11/remain-voters-now-back-taking-control-borders-leaving-ecj-paying/

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[itsnotoutthere]

10 minutes ago, eugeneonegin said:

It was the Telegraph article Black Monk quoted:

The majority of Remain voters now agree that Britain should take control of its borders after Brexit, end the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice and pay little or nothing to leave the EU.

A major survey of more than 20,000 people revealed that an overwhelming majority of voters now prefer a so-called "hard Brexit" to a soft one...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/11/remain-voters-now-back-taking-control-borders-leaving-ecj-paying/

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As I said, outside the BBC and Guardian echo chamber, things are very different.

Edited August 13, 2017 by itsnotoutthere

[eugenonegin]

40 minutes ago, itsnotoutthere said:

As I said, outside the BBC and Guardian echo chamber, things are very different.

But this article supports my surmise -and it is the Telegraph, not the BBC or Guardian!

[itsnotoutthere]

5 hours ago, eugeneonegin said:

But this article supports my surmise -and it is the Telegraph, not the BBC or Guardian!

The article supports my surmise also. But as I said, if your only source of info was the BBC and Guardian you would be mistaken for believing that everybody wants a second referendum, when in actual fact the opposite is true.

[Space Commander Travis]

On 8/12/2017 at 0:14 PM, eugeneonegin said:

Except that now a number of Remainers and Leavers are changing their minds, and having second thoughts.

Are you saying that some Remainers now want to leave, and some Leavers now want to stay? Well, tough, I can't help thinking.

[eugenonegin]

23 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Are you saying that some Remainers now want to leave, and some Leavers now want to stay? Well, tough, I can't help thinking.

Well, I think it is interesting that it now appears some Remainers are starting to favour a hard Brexit. But I agree it doesn't really matter.

[eugenonegin]

On ‎13‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 2:21 PM, itsnotoutthere said:

Yes, you would come to that conclusion if your only news sources er...sorry, opinion pieces were from The Guardian and the BBC (both of whom have vested interests), but outside of that bubble things are very different.

Well, here is a Guardian article which should find favour.

"Farms are not called “uneconomic” in the same way that pits and factories are. So every British household coughs up about £250 a year and hands it over to the EU, which hands it over to people like the Duke of Westminster – already worth £7bn himself. In 2011, the duke received £748,716 in EU subsidies for his various estates. So, too, Saudi Prince Bandar (he of the dodgy al-Yamamah arms deal), who pocketed £273,905 of EU money for his estate in Oxfordshire. The common agricultural policy is socialism for the rich. It’s a mechanism to buttress the aristocracy – who own a third of the land in this country – from the chill winds of economic liberalism."

I did not realise that the EU was subsidising billionaire landlords to such an extent (and using our tax money to do so):https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2016/apr/21/why-our-landed-gentry-are-so-desperate-to-stay-in-the-eu

Edited August 14, 2017 by eugeneonegin

[eugenonegin]

The UK at last reveals it's hand!

We want a Customs Union, the same as already exists, but it will be specially catered for us as we also want to explore trade deals around the world. We will also control all our borders, except for Northern Ireland, because that would be inconvenient due to the volume of trade.

We will maintain our "frictionless borders" with the EU by investing in new technology which will speed up passport, visa and financial controls. No more lorries queuing at Dover or Calais! Scientists are already hard at work on this technology, which will be ready well before the remaining 18 months is up.

For some ridiculous reason the EU negotiators keep banging on about citizen rights, the Exit Bill and Northern Ireland.

I'm sure we will be very firm and explain that once we are out there will be no citizen rights, we are not paying any bills until they pay us £350m per week into our NHS (which we were promised by Nigel Farage!), and we are on top of the NI situation!

All very reasonable and I am sure the EU will readily accept it:https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/15/two-stage-brexit-strategy-derided-by-uk-and-eu-politicians

Edited August 16, 2017 by eugeneonegin

[eugenonegin]

To be perfectly honest, I think this thread will soon die.

The UK has no opening gambits.

We can't go back in time. The world is global village, we (or the EU now), buys spices from the Caribbean, and sells cars in Greece.

What can we offer? Tata owns all our steel and a large amount of industry. Germany owns our car industry.

[Space Commander Travis]

5 hours ago, eugeneonegin said:

To be perfectly honest, I think this thread will soon die.

The UK has no opening gambits.

We can't go back in time. The world is global village, we (or the EU now), buys spices from the Caribbean, and sells cars in Greece.

What can we offer? Tata owns all our steel and a large amount of industry. Germany owns our car industry.

Well done, you've realised the world is not just a group of countries that only have in common geographical proximity! And as you say yourself, in the modern world geographical proximity is hardly a factor. And where's TATA from? A clue; it's not in the EU.

[RAyMO]

The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union tells the Today programme the Brexit process so far has gone "incredibly well". He said the lack of clarity over what the government plan is intentional, calling it "constructive ambiguity".

You have to smile - "constructive ambiguity"

 

[eugenonegin]

3 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Well done, you've realised the world is not just a group of countries that only have in common geographical proximity! And as you say yourself, in the modern world geographical proximity is hardly a factor. And where's TATA from? A clue; it's not in the EU.

India doesn't want us, they don't admire the English, Partition still rankles,deeply.

We have burnt our bridges, in a financial and commercial sense.

Yesterday, the UK revealed its bargaining hand (if you can call it a hand, basically it is begging the EU to allow the status quo for a few years), and no-one posted here.You want to  know why- because it is a FUBAR that just cannot be celebrated in any way.

Well, it can in a Charlottesville kind of way, chanting in the streets that we have taken our country back," oh ar, oh ar, come on you Spurs! UK out,UK out ", but not in any rational or logical way.

If Brexit had been planned over several years, and was a considered strategy, I would give it some credence, but in fact, it was a totally unexpected event that no-one planned for.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by eugeneonegin

[eugenonegin]

On ‎12‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 8:43 AM, eugeneonegin said:

I don't think it helpful to suggest Northerners are stupid, nor that they are responsible for Brexit

For your information, one of the highest "leave" votes was recorded in Oxfordshire, I believe.

Actually, Oxford voted 70% to remain.

Could that be because they are educated? Or wealthy? Is education important? Is patriotism and love of country more important that cold facts? It may be.

Do we hate the people in the south who are rich?

https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vote-explained-poverty-low-skills-and-lack-opportunities?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI0I6Nm7vb1QIVT5PtCh2VPAxEEAAYASAAEgJfpvD_BwE

[stevewinn]

@eugeneonegin @alibongo Where does it say the UK is not leaving the EU? oh, that's right where still leaving, the Single market and Customs Union.

You seem to forget, these are negotiations we are involved in. We approach it it from a position that suits the interests of the UK - and likewise the EU approach it from a position that suits their interests and we both meet somewhere in the middle.

What's clear from the UK position is we've firmly put the ball in the EU's court, The UK is talking about or proposing a new trade relationship with the EU that allows for the free flowing of trade between the UK and EU much in the same way we are approaching NEW trade deals from non-eu countries. This forces the issue and the EU's hand, so far they (EU) are refusing to talk trade deals because they want the 'divorce bill' agreed first even though there is no legal basis.

Now, if the EU decide to play hard ball, and refuses then we leave in March 2019 with no deal. it lays the blame firmly with the EU, businesses will know it and so will the world. the UK was open and willing the EU wasn't, that stance by the EU will put it at odds with its members interests, European members and business will be pushing the EU to agree a deal of some sort, they are not of the same mentality of the EU apparatchiks, where they seek to punish and the organisation before all else, no far from it, as we get closer to the leave date individual countries will be increasingly lobbying EU leaders as their individual interests come to the fore. 

I really hope the EU tells us to feck off, and not agree a deal.

[RoofGardener]

And now, the Weather, written by eugeneonegin

DOOMgloomDISASTER. Plagues of Locusts moving in from the South, followed by a Murraine of Cattle and Death of the First Born. Simultaneous drought AND floods throughout Shropshire. A band of pessimism sweeping through England and Wales, followed by outbreaks of Teeth Gnashing and Garment Rending.

And next, the Sport.

WE'RE GOING TO LOSE !!!!!

 

Edited August 16, 2017 by RoofGardener

[Space Commander Travis]

11 hours ago, RAyMO said:

The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union tells the Today programme the Brexit process so far has gone "incredibly well". He said the lack of clarity over what the government plan is intentional, calling it "constructive ambiguity".

You have to smile - "constructive ambiguity"

 

Keep them puzzled so they can't draw up a plan to oppose it. It's a similar way to how Donald Trump works. That's an encouraging thought isn't it.