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Opening gambits in EU / UK exit negotiations;


keithisco

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2 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

After seeing posts by him over several years I can say with 100% confidence that he has the mentality of a working class person. He is not a metropolitan snob, he is pretending to be one.

I've never pretended to be anything other than what I am - a man from a working class background who's worked hard to better himself and succeeded. 

Do I think I'm better than the morons I went to school with who spent their days pratting about instead of learning and now stack shelves in Tesco? Well, yes frankly. 

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3 minutes ago, Setton said:

I've never pretended to be anything other than what I am - a man from a working class background who's worked hard to better himself and succeeded. 

Do I think I'm better than the morons I went to school with who spent their days pratting about instead of learning and now stack shelves in Tesco? Well, yes frankly. 

You think more and more like a Tory everyday. Why dont you join us? Its not like joining the Labour Party, you dont need to exchange your soul for membership!

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I just did my emergency Brexit shopping trip. I have purchased:

2 packs of German Bratwurst and a large bottle of Curry Gewurz Ketchup.

5 packs of Danish Bacon.

1 large bag of Irish Sausages and 2 large Irish Beef Steaks.

50 cans of Dutch Heineken.

And lots of Greek Yoghurt.

That should cover me for November (I hope).

Edited by RabidMongoose
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3 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

You think more and more like a Tory everyday. Why dont you join us? Its not like joining the Labour Party, you dont need to exchange your soul for membership!

I'm not part of any political party, nor do I intend to be. 

Yes, I am proud of my achievements. Yes, I have worked hard for them. No I don't respect those who have wasted their opportunities. 

But equally, I don't think people who have been denied those opportunities should just be abandoned by society. I do think everyone deserves access to healthcare and higher education, if they choose to engage with it. 

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5 minutes ago, Setton said:

I'm not part of any political party, nor do I intend to be. 

Yes, I am proud of my achievements. Yes, I have worked hard for them. No I don't respect those who have wasted their opportunities. 

But equally, I don't think people who have been denied those opportunities should just be abandoned by society. I do think everyone deserves access to healthcare and higher education, if they choose to engage with it. 

The gifted have never been abandoned by society.

Thats a socialist narrative to win votes.

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1 minute ago, RabidMongoose said:

The gifted have never been abandoned by society.

Thats a socialist narrative to win votes.

I didn't say they have. I'm talking about those who may not be gifted but are willing to put the effort in. 

It doesn't matter how willing to work you are if you're in some failing dead end school. 

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2 minutes ago, Setton said:

I didn't say they have. I'm talking about those who may not be gifted but are willing to put the effort in. 

It doesn't matter how willing to work you are if you're in some failing dead end school. 

All schools are required by law to teach the same material, in the same way, to the same standard. The differences between private and public schools are:

Attitude/Mentality: Public schools are filled with children from problem families who are going no where fast in life. They have the wrong attitude/mentality towards learning, towards other people, and towards getting anywhere in life. Private schools are mostly free from people like that. 

Class Numbers: Public schools have larger classes spreading teaching resources more thinly. It means there are only limited chances for one-on-one education when a child is struggling with a concept.

Relationships: Private schools are a good place for a child to make friends with people who will be going places later in life. From business owners to professionals, it means they can build a better network.

Individualism: Public schools create potted plants which think the same, act the same, and are afraid to stand out from the crowd by thinking for themselves. Private schools create individuals who question, criticise, make their own minds up about things, and have the confidence to do what they want or believe in. Plant pots are thus followers or herd members, where as private schools produce leaders.

I personally think the Labour Party manifesto on education is going to far when spending money. Chucking money at the wrong children isn't a cost effective approach of raising standards. Instead the Tory approach of having grammar schools for poorer but gifted children is better.

They can be taken out of their disruptive state schools where they are surrounded by the wrong type of people, given more support in their education, and have their leadership ability developed.

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Makes you wonder if this is what the Scots would have or will face if they had or in future do vote for independance.  

 

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2 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

All schools are required by law to teach the same material, in the same way, to the same standard.

But they don't. Standards vary widely between schools. If your catchment school is in special measures, you're not going to have the same opportunities as if it's outstanding. 

Quote

The differences between private and public schools are:

Attitude/Mentality: Public schools are filled with children from problem families who are going no where fast in life. They have the wrong attitude/mentality towards learning, towards other people, and towards getting anywhere in life. Private schools are mostly free from people like that. 

Class Numbers: Public schools have larger classes spreading teaching resources more thinly. It means there are only limited chances for one-on-one education when a child is struggling with a concept.

Relationships: Private schools are a good place for a child to make friends with people who will be going places later in life. From business owners to professionals, it means they can build a better network.

Individualism: Public schools create potted plants which think the same, act the same, and are afraid to stand out from the crowd by thinking for themselves. Private schools create individuals who question, criticise, make their own minds up about things, and have the confidence to do what they want or believe in. Plant pots are thus followers or herd members, where as private schools produce leaders.

I disagree. This is true on average but each school is unique. I've come across extremely disruptive pupils in private schools and state schools that really promote leadership and individualis. Class sizes are generally better in private schools. There are some horrendous private schools and some incredible state ones. 

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I personally think the Labour Party manifesto on education is going to far when spending money. Chucking money at the wrong children isn't a cost effective approach of raising standards. Instead the Tory approach of having grammar schools for poorer but gifted children is better.

They can be taken out of their disruptive state schools where they are surrounded by the wrong type of people, given more support in their education, and have their leadership ability developed.

Who decides who the 'wrong children' are? 

I think grammar schools are a good idea in principle. However, there needs to be scope for children to transfer at later stages - some very gifted children won't be showing it at 11.

I also think there should be a third, middle option. For those who aren't especially gifted but are motivated to learn. There's no reason they should suffer from disruptive classmates. 

Finally, do away with private schools. The level of opportunity offered should depend on willingness to learn and ability. There is absolutely no justification for a rich, spoiled, disruptive brat getting a better education than a highly motivated child of average ability from a low income family. 

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Ann Widdecombe ON FIRE at a Clean Break Brexit rally... hell will obviously freeze over before
the MSM anti Brexit propaganda machine would feature anything like this... in fact she takes a
swipe at the BBC around the 14 minute mark....

the more I hear about the 'Boris' deal the more glad I am it wasn't voted on... just in case it scraped through...


Ann Widdecombe Verbally Burns Down Parliament At 'Clean Break Now' In London

 

 

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1 hour ago, Setton said:

 

Finally, do away with private schools. The level of opportunity offered should depend on willingness to learn and ability. There is absolutely no justification for a rich, spoiled, disruptive brat getting a better education than a highly motivated child of average ability from a low income family. 

Closing private schools would shut off the parent funding into education system, there would be no big incentive for parents to pay large amounts of cash into a state school. The voluntary money private education attracts would be lost with no reduction in the total number of students wanting an education. 

If parents want to pay taxes and then pay education cost why not let them? 

The problem is the funding level for existing students in state schools, if that is sufficient then what private schools do should have no effect on the general education standard in state schools. 

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Just now, L.A.T.1961 said:

Closing private schools would shut off the parent funding into education system, there would be no big incentive for parents to pay large amounts of cash into a state school. The voluntary money private education attracts would be lost with no reduction in the total number of students wanting an education. 

If parents want to pay taxes and then pay education cost why not let them? 

The problem is the funding level for existing students in state schools, if that is sufficient then what private schools do should have no effect on the general education standard in state schools. 

I say go the other way. As there will only ever be limited numbers of positions available for people with GCSEs, A-Levels, and University Degrees, lets limit how many students can study them per year paid for by the state. The most intelligent ones getting first digs. 

The Labour Party is selling a dream not a reality with its historical track record of over-spending on education. All it does is drive down skilled wages as companies find themselves swamped with applicants who have the correct qualifications.

Pointless qualifications and education cost the tax payer.

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23 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

Closing private schools would shut off the parent funding into education system, there would be no big incentive for parents to pay large amounts of cash into a state school. The voluntary money private education attracts would be lost with no reduction in the total number of students wanting an education. 

If parents want to pay taxes and then pay education cost why not let them? 

Because it gives an advantage to children who couldn't give two tosses about learning just because they have rich parents. That money only goes into those private schools. It doesn't benefit education as a whole. 

Get rid of the private schools and increase taxes for the richest to the same amount. That money goes into education to benefit those who want to learn and be successful rather than those who just have successful parents. 

Edited by Setton
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21 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

I say go the other way. As there will only ever be limited numbers of positions available for people with GCSEs, A-Levels, and University Degrees, lets limit how many students can study them per year paid for by the state. The most intelligent ones getting first digs. 

The Labour Party is selling a dream not a reality with its historical track record of over-spending on education. All it does is drive down skilled wages as companies find themselves swamped with applicants who have the correct qualifications.

Pointless qualifications and education cost the tax payer.

There is an argument to reduce numbers going to uni. Uni courses have been dumbed down in many cases to allow students to graduate. It devalues the qualifications and turns degrees into a glorified A level. It also put's people into debt they can do without.

But who can argue that more education is a bad thing? ;) 

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13 minutes ago, Setton said:

Because it gives an advantage to children who couldn't give two tosses about learning just because they have rich parents. 

Get rid of the private schools and increase taxes for the richest to the same amount. That money goes into education to benefit those who want to learn and be successful rather than those who just have successful parents. 

If you shut private schools what is to stop better off parents employing a teacher to come in an hour at night and provide one to one tutoring. Those children who couldn't give two tosses will still end up doing better.

Do you ban private education at home as well as private schools? 

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57 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

Closing private schools would shut off the parent funding into education system, there would be no big incentive for parents to pay large amounts of cash into a state school. The voluntary money private education attracts would be lost with no reduction in the total number of students wanting an education. 

If parents want to pay taxes and then pay education cost why not let them? 

The problem is the funding level for existing students in state schools, if that is sufficient then what private schools do should have no effect on the general education standard in state schools. 

I have no problem with Private Schools, but they should operate without state funding or tax breaks, directly or indirectly through for example claiming charitable status. 

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21 hours ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

There is an argument to reduce numbers going to uni. Uni courses have been dumbed down in many cases to allow students to graduate. It devalues the qualifications and turns degrees into a glorified A level. It also put's people into debt they can do without.

But who can argue that more education is a bad thing? ;) 

University degrees haven't been dumbed down, that perception is wrong.

Getting a BA is one of the hardest things someone will do in life, its like running a marathon.

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22 hours ago, Setton said:

Because it gives an advantage to children who couldn't give two tosses about learning just because they have rich parents. That money only goes into those private schools. It doesn't benefit education as a whole. 

Get rid of the private schools and increase taxes for the richest to the same amount. That money goes into education to benefit those who want to learn and be successful rather than those who just have successful parents. 

The negativity in that reply is disgraceful.

In order to justify getting rid of private schools you are convincing yourself a large number of children at them `couldn't give two tosses about learning`. Like I said before, you arent successful in life, we can see your true self shinning through multiple cracks.

I bet you dont even have any privately educated friends to even know what they are like as people.

Edited by RabidMongoose
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23 hours ago, Setton said:

Because it gives an advantage to children who couldn't give two tosses about learning just because they have rich parents. That money only goes into those private schools. It doesn't benefit education as a whole. 

Get rid of the private schools and increase taxes for the richest to the same amount. That money goes into education to benefit those who want to learn and be successful rather than those who just have successful parents. 

You seem to be ignoring one obvious fact....it's their money and they can decide how they spend it. I know that telling other people how to spend their own money is what left wing people like to do, but these parents also pay for state schools through the income tax they pay, and god knows how many other taxes. If anything, although they are contributing to the state school system through their taxes, they are not receiving any benefits, perhaps they should get a tax rebate.

Nobody tells you how to spend your wages, why should people like you tell them how to spend theirs?

Oh and by the way, there are plenty of kids in state schools (and their parents) that couldn't give a toss about getting an education no matter how much money you throw at them, they're stabbing each other at a rate of knots in London at the moment.

Whats the next step? telling people what size houses they're allowed to buy or which model car they can drive? It's what's known as 'the politics of envy'

Edited by itsnotoutthere
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P.s. 

Just because somebody is well off doesn't mean they didn't work hard for it.

 

Edited by itsnotoutthere
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10 minutes ago, itsnotoutthere said:

P.s.

It seems the left in this country want to dumb everything down to the same level, they've done it with universities now they want to do it to schools.

 

He is at least moderate left-wing, but I suspect extreme socialism.

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Everybody had role models at school.  Mine was John Major.  Don't ask me why.  Must have been a speech he once said which stuck with me at the time.  The only thing I remember from high school was the P.E. teacher exposing himself, mitching off classes, printing out fake exam results to avoid getting yelled at by my parents, and playing floppy disk games in I.T. class.  The school closed soon after I left.  Can't remember any actual lessons, except for a few with the beautiful English teacher.  Most of us felt that public education was just a place to keep working class kids off the streets.  As one kid used to say "what's the point?" and I remember the Math's teacher agreed.  The climate change doomsday rhetoric is probably making things worse for kids who will probably say the same thing.  The whole education system really should be reformed to give kids better motivation, and a greater sense of purpose and direction in life.  I grew up watching period dramas and my aspiration was to live and work in a world that was already long gone.  My parents used to say I was born in the wrong century.  :D

 

 

Edited by Aaron2016
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17 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

The negativity in that reply is disgraceful.In order to justify getting rid of private schools you are convincing yourself a large number of children at them `couldn't give two tosses about learning`.

No, just some. 

What I'm proposing is simply sending the pupils most willing and capable to learn to the best schools, those willing but less able to average schools and those with no desire to learn to the schools least equipped to teach them. 

Quote

Like I said before, you arent successful in life, we can see your true self shinning through multiple cracks.

Luckily, your opinion has zero impact on my success. I also know every bit of that success has been earned by me. I didn't have to get my parents to buy my way in anywhere. 

Quote

I bet you dont even have any privately educated friends to even know what they are like as people.

I studied at Durham for 4 years and you think I don't have any friends who went to private schools? 

Please. 

:lol:

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15 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

He is at least moderate left-wing, but I suspect extreme socialism.

Does it really freak you out so much that I don't fit in your neat left/right boxes? 

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17 hours ago, itsnotoutthere said:

Nobody tells you how to spend your wages, why should people like you tell them how to spend theirs?

You've not heard of taxes then? 

Quote

Oh and by the way, there are plenty of kids in state schools (and their parents) that couldn't give a toss about getting an education no matter how much money you throw at them, they're stabbing each other at a rate of knots in London at the moment.

I think you need to try reading the words I wrote. 

These are exactly the children I'm proposing go to the worst schools. Along with any others who are disruptive and have no desire to learn. 

What I'm suggesting boils down very simply to the best education for the most deserving. 

What do you think makes someone more deserving of a good education: a willingness to learn or rich parents? 

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Whats the next step? telling people what size houses they're allowed to buy or which model car they can drive?

No, because those are things not opportunities. 

Quote

It's what's known as 'the politics of envy'

And yours is the politics of ignorance. 

Or is it just that you suspect my proposal would have put you and your kids in the worse schools, I wonder... 

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