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Opening gambits in EU / UK exit negotiations;


keithisco

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3 hours ago, itsnotoutthere said:

Ah well, lets all look forward to the general election when the public can make their feelings known. (Assuming the politicians will honour the result........because you can't be too sure these days)

if the votes aren't lost ,like the Lorry load that went missing in the last election and which was found empty 

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2 hours ago, stevewinn said:

No, because he could have called a vote of no confidence in his own govt. Which would have forced a G.E.

He could have filibustered the Benn bill in the house of lords but chose not to.

And now talk of a December election. Where you'd expect a low turn out. And potentially bleak weather.

 

 

 

 

If  the people feel strongly about voting,and I think they do ,from what I have heard on the streets ,in pubs,at bus stands ,and in super-markets ,they won't let a bit of rain , ice , or the Devil on a skate board , stop them from putting the X where it counts as per the ME.P. vote . Rule Brit(exit) annia  .

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11 hours ago, Setton said:

Sad that this is what we've come to. 

 

Just goes to show how restrained us Brits are after three and a half years. In Hong Kong they riot, build barricades and attack the police when their democracy is denied them.

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2 hours ago, itsnotoutthere said:

Just goes to show how restrained us Brits are after three and a half years. In Hong Kong they riot, build barricades and attack the police when their democracy is denied them.

Im surprised people are surprised that when you take democracy away from the ballot box. Then all your left with is violence.

When a democratic vote is held its out come, the instruction from the people has to be adhered to. If you disagree thats fine. But ultimately those on the losing side have to concede defeat.

Not to overturn or circumvent democracy.

Implement the result, the mandate, the will of the people. And then argue your case. If it holds water then public opinion will be reflected via the ballot box.

At the end of the day you either believe in democracy and accept the majority of your fellow citizens agree or disagree with you. You dont go around calling everyone stupid, racist and all that guff. Because one finds themselves on the losing side.

The UK should have left the EU on the 29th March. Implement the democratic choice.

Those that lost the argument could make their case for rejoining. If they had confidence in their conviction that would be the action taken. But maybe they aren't convinced that they can win a argument about rejoining.

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2 hours ago, itsnotoutthere said:

Just goes to show how restrained us Brits are after three and a half years. In Hong Kong they riot, build barricades and attack the police when their democracy is denied them.

What democracy are you being denied? The UK and its people have their own democracy based on an unwritten constitution and the sovereignty of parliament. You never had a peoples' democracy in which the will of the people is sovereign - sovereignty lies only with the peoples' representatives in parliament. You have only had the vote for everyone over 18 years since 1928. None of your referenda are legally binding unless parliament allows it (and right now it does not). No decision of the people, or anyone else, can be forced on parliament. And therein lies the absurdity of what is going on at the moment. Britain never had a revolution. Your so-called Glorious Revolution of 1688 was just an oligarchy wresting power from the monarch. It certainly never gave that power - that sovereignty - to the people. 

The problem for the UK is that the sovereignty of its parliament has been slowly and inexorably eroded by EU law since 1972, and more particularly in recent decades. Having always had the privileged position that no law was biding upon it unless it agreed to it, its position has been undermined by Brussels.  The absurdity is that it looked to the people in the 2016 Referendum to help it recover and re-establish its independence and traditional sovereign status, but it did this knowing the referendum eas not binding. We now have the farce of a parliament dominated by Remainers having the job of implementing the peoples' non-binding decision. By implementing the peoples' will it is being complicit in negating its own sovereignty, and extending a dangerous precedent to the people. The genie is out of the bottle and the people having tasted their power will be loathe to see it denied or taken away again.

Boris Johnson was elected by 90,000 privileged Tory members and appointed by a privileged hereditary monarch with absolutely no involvement of your parliament. By a ruling of your newly established and independent Supreme Court your PM stands accused of using monarchical and arbitrary powers to illegally prorogue parliament contrary to the true spirit of democratic principles. Through the medium of global communications the so-called 'mother of all parliaments' provides an astonishing spectacle of melodrama, bad-manners and verbosity more akin to a badly conducted undergraduate debating society than a respected national political assembly. Your own Mail newspaper called it a 'House of Fools'.

True democracies have written constitutions in which sovereignty lies with the will of the people. They have proper separation of powers between the executive, the legislature and the judiciary. Britain has been developing in that direction. In 2009 the UK established a Supreme Court independent of the Law Lords sitting in the legislature. New rules were established to prevent individuals holding office in one arm of government from taking office in others (double jobbing and conflict of interest).  Your 'unwritten constitution' (an oxymoron) has been often open to interpretation by vested interests with the political clout to mould it to whatever meaning suits them best.

The questions Boris likes to ask of his uncooperative opponents might be better asked of the UK in general. The people are not happy. Three years ago having been led to believe that the EU is the fount of all ills they voted against Europe. But now they increasingly understand the nature of the democracy they live in and begin to see that the problems lie more at home. When the UK leaves the EU the great liar Boris and the British media will have no scapegoats to blame.. We'll all still eat bent bananas while  Britain continues to go through a  process of democratic evolution (maybe revolution). 

Quo Vadis, UK?

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25 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

What democracy are you being denied? The UK and its people have their own democracy based on an unwritten constitution and the sovereignty of parliament. You never had a peoples' democracy in which the will of the people is sovereign - sovereignty lies only with the peoples' representatives in parliament. You have only had the vote for everyone over 18 years since 1928. None of your referenda are legally binding unless parliament allows it (and right now it does not). No decision of the people, or anyone else, can be forced on parliament. And therein lies the absurdity of what is going on at the moment. Britain never had a revolution. Your so-called Glorious Revolution of 1688 was just an oligarchy wresting power from the monarch. It certainly never gave that power - that sovereignty - to the people. 

The problem for the UK is that the sovereignty of its parliament has been slowly and inexorably eroded by EU law since 1972, and more particularly in recent decades. Having always had the privileged position that no law was biding upon it unless it agreed to it, its position has been undermined by Brussels.  The absurdity is that it looked to the people in the 2016 Referendum to help it recover and re-establish its independence and traditional sovereign status, but it did this knowing the referendum eas not binding. We now have the farce of a parliament dominated by Remainers having the job of implementing the peoples' non-binding decision. By implementing the peoples' will it is being complicit in negating its own sovereignty, and extending a dangerous precedent to the people. The genie is out of the bottle and the people having tasted their power will be loathe to see it denied or taken away again.

Boris Johnson was elected by 90,000 privileged Tory members and appointed by a privileged hereditary monarch with absolutely no involvement of your parliament. By a ruling of your newly established and independent Supreme Court your PM stands accused of using monarchical and arbitrary powers to illegally prorogue parliament contrary to the true spirit of democratic principles. Through the medium of global communications the so-called 'mother of all parliaments' provides an astonishing spectacle of melodrama, bad-manners and verbosity more akin to a badly conducted undergraduate debating society than a respected national political assembly. Your own Mail newspaper called it a 'House of Fools'.

True democracies have written constitutions in which sovereignty lies with the will of the people. They have proper separation of powers between the executive, the legislature and the judiciary. Britain has been developing in that direction. In 2009 the UK established a Supreme Court independent of the Law Lords sitting in the legislature. New rules were established to prevent individuals holding office in one arm of government from taking office in others (double jobbing and conflict of interest).  Your 'unwritten constitution' (an oxymoron) has been often open to interpretation by vested interests with the political clout to mould it to whatever meaning suits them best.

The questions Boris likes to ask of his uncooperative opponents might be better asked of the UK in general. The people are not happy. Three years ago having been led to believe that the EU is the fount of all ills they voted against Europe. But now they increasingly understand the nature of the democracy they live in and begin to see that the problems lie more at home. When the UK leaves the EU the great liar Boris and the British media will have no scapegoats to blame.. We'll all still eat bent bananas while  Britain continues to go through a  process of democratic evolution (maybe revolution). 

Quo Vadis, UK?

Well said Ozy, on your last point, the problems lie more at home, its true. but equally that's what happens when you have a UK system at odds with a alien foreign system. People wonder why this country is being dragged through the mud and the truth is parliaments unwillingness to take responsibility.. Parliament is being handed it sovereignty back, but its doesn't want the responsibility. A concept behind Brexit is that, with Parliament forced to revert to governing a state without being spoon-fed directives from Brussels, the quality of MPs and their parties will gradually improve as they are forced to do their job properly and their outputs will be directly attributable. equally we wouldn't be in this problem if it wasnt for bad legislation with the passing of the fixed parliament act. (another Sir Letwin calamity) proving the calibre of MP has fallen. One only has to compare Hansard records of commons debates in the 60s/70s to those of today in order to track the steep deterioration in MP quality and public service engagement. Not unsurprising, given the direct inverse correlation with increasing integration with (or subsumption by) the EU.

Remainers challenging the UK system, which as stood for centuries without the need for a written constitution allowed our country to flourish and pronounced as the mother of all democracies but its this generation and their challenge to democracy that is ruining our country, it is ruining politicians and I believe will have far reaching consequences from now on, indeed a lot of damage has already been done and a bad precedence has already been set, this will only get worse without us leaving the EU.

We used to have a system which Laws which seemed to be outwith the powers of government were tested by the legal eagles in the Lords - the Law Lords - who acted as the final arbiters, purely in a legal sense. The Labour government stopped that and set up the Supreme Court (2009) (because the EU had one!). Now instead of appealing to the Lords the system has taken it out of the Palace of Westminster and put it in the normal legal system which means lawyers have another deep public purse to dip in to.

We were then subjected to the Supreme Court deciding that Boris was unlawful in proroguing parliament purely on their interpretation of the unwritten constitution and how parliament works rather than on Law.

I wonder why the PM of the time, with a lawyer wife used to working at the appeal court level, would change a system that had been in operation for centuries and change it for one that copies a foreign court. Nothing to do with money/fees whatsoever

We are a very valuable member of Europe and we will be a very valuable neighbour outside of Europe. They need to trade with us, we need to trade with them, we can leave on good terms and make it work or we can leave on bad terms and make it work. The EU needs the UK as a friend and ally, the same (or similar) as we need the EU.

 

Edited by stevewinn
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12 hours ago, spud the mackem said:

If  the people feel strongly about voting,and I think they do ,from what I have heard on the streets ,in pubs,at bus stands ,and in super-markets ,they won't let a bit of rain , ice , or the Devil on a skate board , stop them from putting the X where it counts as per the ME.P. vote . Rule Brit(exit) annia  .

That's true. be nice to see the traditional parties wiped out. Get the Brexit Party in. (not going to happen but, shame)

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3 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

What democracy are you being denied? The UK and its people have their own democracy based on an unwritten constitution and the sovereignty of parliament. You never had a peoples' democracy in which the will of the people is sovereign - sovereignty lies only with the peoples' representatives in parliament. You have only had the vote for everyone over 18 years since 1928. None of your referenda are legally binding unless parliament allows it (and right now it does not). No decision of the people, or anyone else, can be forced on parliament. And therein lies the absurdity of what is going on at the moment. Britain never had a revolution. Your so-called Glorious Revolution of 1688 was just an oligarchy wresting power from the monarch. It certainly never gave that power - that sovereignty - to the people. 

The problem for the UK is that the sovereignty of its parliament has been slowly and inexorably eroded by EU law since 1972, and more particularly in recent decades. Having always had the privileged position that no law was biding upon it unless it agreed to it, its position has been undermined by Brussels.  The absurdity is that it looked to the people in the 2016 Referendum to help it recover and re-establish its independence and traditional sovereign status, but it did this knowing the referendum eas not binding. We now have the farce of a parliament dominated by Remainers having the job of implementing the peoples' non-binding decision. By implementing the peoples' will it is being complicit in negating its own sovereignty, and extending a dangerous precedent to the people. The genie is out of the bottle and the people having tasted their power will be loathe to see it denied or taken away again.

Boris Johnson was elected by 90,000 privileged Tory members and appointed by a privileged hereditary monarch with absolutely no involvement of your parliament. By a ruling of your newly established and independent Supreme Court your PM stands accused of using monarchical and arbitrary powers to illegally prorogue parliament contrary to the true spirit of democratic principles. Through the medium of global communications the so-called 'mother of all parliaments' provides an astonishing spectacle of melodrama, bad-manners and verbosity more akin to a badly conducted undergraduate debating society than a respected national political assembly. Your own Mail newspaper called it a 'House of Fools'.

True democracies have written constitutions in which sovereignty lies with the will of the people. They have proper separation of powers between the executive, the legislature and the judiciary. Britain has been developing in that direction. In 2009 the UK established a Supreme Court independent of the Law Lords sitting in the legislature. New rules were established to prevent individuals holding office in one arm of government from taking office in others (double jobbing and conflict of interest).  Your 'unwritten constitution' (an oxymoron) has been often open to interpretation by vested interests with the political clout to mould it to whatever meaning suits them best.

The questions Boris likes to ask of his uncooperative opponents might be better asked of the UK in general. The people are not happy. Three years ago having been led to believe that the EU is the fount of all ills they voted against Europe. But now they increasingly understand the nature of the democracy they live in and begin to see that the problems lie more at home. When the UK leaves the EU the great liar Boris and the British media will have no scapegoats to blame.. We'll all still eat bent bananas while  Britain continues to go through a  process of democratic evolution (maybe revolution). 

Quo Vadis, UK?

Oh you're back, hello

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I am a bit surprised (not) by the TV news calm approach to the EU extension negotiations. When Boris was supposedly scheming to leave without a deal it was all that was talked about.

Today, and with no deal sorted out yet by EU, its just a ten min segment at the top of the hour. The situation could have the same consequences. But the press do not want to show EU as disorganised or in a negative light.

With the decision put back on an extension to sometime next week it should be portrayed as a disaster in the making and then who is to blame. ;) 

 

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12 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

I am a bit surprised (not) by the TV news calm approach to the EU extension negotiations. When Boris was supposedly scheming to leave without a deal it was all that was talked about.

Today, and with no deal sorted out yet by EU, its just a ten min segment at the top of the hour. The situation could have the same consequences. But the press do not want to show EU as disorganised or in a negative light.

With the decision put back on an extension to sometime next week it should be portrayed as a disaster in the making and then who is to blame. ;) 

 

That's because you're behind the times. An extension has been agreed, jus the length to decide next week. 

And "NOTHING HAS CHANGED" does not make a good headline. 

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9 minutes ago, Setton said:

That's because you're behind the times. An extension has been agreed, jus the length to decide next week. 

And "NOTHING HAS CHANGED" does not make a good headline. 

Until the length is agreed then nothing is agreed, all EU members have to agree on one solution. 

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22 minutes ago, Setton said:

That's because you're behind the times. An extension has been agreed, jus the length to decide next week. 

And "NOTHING HAS CHANGED" does not make a good headline. 

How does this effect the benn bill. The extension asked for was 31st January. If they offer more or less. Then what.

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Brussels fears accidental Brexit crash-out

"The fear I see is that Monday could be too late, it would be the 28th, we would have only three days left," one EU diplomat said. "What happens if for some reason we don’t have clarity even on Monday?”

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-fears-accidental-brexit-crash-out-uk-eu/

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45 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

Until the length is agreed then nothing is agreed, all EU members have to agree on one solution. 

Hope truly does spring eternal... 

28 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

How does this effect the benn bill. The extension asked for was 31st January. If they offer more or less. Then what.

As i understand it (and, like you, I'm no legal expert), the bill required the PM to seek that extension. He has sought it (kind of, separate issue). Now its up to the EU to decide if they agree. They have decided they agree in principle, but haven't yet decided if they agree with the length. 

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29 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

Brussels fears accidental Brexit crash-out

Of course they do. Everyone should. All the signs have been pointing to it not happening on 31 October. The economy will not take it well if that suddenly changes. 

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17 hours ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

Brussels fears accidental Brexit crash-out

"The fear I see is that Monday could be too late, it would be the 28th, we would have only three days left," one EU diplomat said. "What happens if for some reason we don’t have clarity even on Monday?”

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/brussels-fears-accidental-brexit-crash-out-uk-eu/

I wish Macron like De Gaulle before him would say Non. then we can leave No deal and then get on clearing the decks in December.

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The Thinking behind all this is, we are leaving the EU anyway. but as Boris cannot get the UK/EU agreement through Parliament, Macron to block the extension. Britain Leaves the EU, Boris holds a General Election, as is expected Boris wins a majority. then we open talks with the EU based on the UK/EU agreement. it gets passed through the new parliament, and the UK & EU continue like they would have if the agreement would have been passed the first time around. Word is the EU fear dealing with a Corbyn led govt. and see no benefit in a coalition govt of Tory/Brexit party. 

 

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2 hours ago, stevewinn said:

The Thinking behind all this is, we are leaving the EU anyway. but as Boris cannot get the UK/EU agreement through Parliament, Macron to block the extension. Britain Leaves the EU, Boris holds a General Election, as is expected Boris wins a majority. then we open talks with the EU based on the UK/EU agreement. it gets passed through the new parliament, and the UK & EU continue like they would have if the agreement would have been passed the first time around. Word is the EU fear dealing with a Corbyn led govt. and see no benefit in a coalition govt of Tory/Brexit party. 

 

Nigel will be happy if there is no deal , its nearly time to put your X where it counts as we showed them in the M.E.P. elections .  

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Interesting point was made by a lawyer (QC) on the radio this afternoon, Jeremy Corbyn wants 'no deal' taken off the table before he'll agree to a general election, a new government isn't bound by promises of the previous one, so it could be put straight back on the agenda after the election.

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38 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

Interesting point was made by a lawyer (QC) on the radio this afternoon, Jeremy Corbyn wants 'no deal' taken off the table before he'll agree to a general election, a new government isn't bound by promises of the previous one, so it could be put straight back on the agenda after the election.

This is the case. the point about taking of the table now is so that the UK doesn't exit with a no deal during the election period. The new government can do what it wants anything from no deal to revoke.

At this stage I almost be happy to see no deal - just the see how the Brexit parties fare in an election just after a no deal brexit.

ETA - even better if Labour ditched Corbyn.

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56 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Thank you France!

Do it, block it, we are grateful to you.

As much as i hope France does block it, i doubt they will, they'll agree to the extension. no EU country wants to be seen to be the one to force Britain out.

It comes to something when we are relying on a foreign power to do our Parliaments work for them.

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2 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

As much as i hope France does block it, i doubt they will, they'll agree to the extension. no EU country wants to be seen to be the one to force Britain out.

It comes to something when we are relying on a foreign power to do our Parliaments work for them.

It is with great dismay I have to report on William Hills betting odds today.

If a General Election happens this year the outcome will most likely be a hung Parliament or a narrow Conservative victory putting us right back where we are now.

If Boris goes this year then it is with not only great dismay but great disbelief too that Corbyn is by far odds on favourite to be the next PM after him. Followed by Ken Clarke who is so pro-EU he would totally roll over to it instead of honouring Brexit.

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