How will God prove himself?

[XenoFish]

Religion is a memetic virus that's infected all of us at some point. And if left alone in certain minds psychosis develops. Delusions of grandeur, etc.

[Mr Walker]

6 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Religion is a memetic virus that's infected all of us at some point. And if left alone in certain minds psychosis develops. Delusions of grandeur, etc.

1. And this of course would NOT be a memetic virus, delusion , mental safety mechanism? Human minds develop faith belief and even relgions in response to environmental stimuli and cognitive capacity, NOT by learning them from others (although this also occurs as one gets old enough to communicate)
2. People like you and mystic crusader have also combined modern societal memes, with conclusions your mind has reached based on your Previous experiences, to construct an alternative pov. Its natural, but also  wrong, to assume that your perceptions of faith, belief, and religion are right, and every one elses wrong. 
3. Your construction is exactly the same in form and function as a believers,  and serves the same psychological need for you as belief does for them.

 

[Mr Walker]

38 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Religion is a memetic virus that's infected all of us at some point. And if left alone in certain minds psychosis develops. Delusions of grandeur, etc.

Why assume religious belief brings delusions of grandeur?  in reality, delusions of humilty or insignificance are just as common. Religion simply affects a person's basic personality type in different ways. 

[XenoFish]

Religion is just a band-aid against the utter meaninglessness and pointlessness of life, and humanity as a whole. We live and die, nothing more than a slowly decaying mass of particles. Even when you find some meaning to your life, that meaning is ultimately meaningless.

[Mr Walker]

10 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Religion is just a band-aid against the utter meaninglessness and pointlessness of life, and humanity as a whole. We live and die, nothing more than a slowly decaying mass of particles. Even when you find some meaning to your life, that meaning is ultimately meaningless.

Gotcha! lol. Why do you perceive life like that?. And why bother living if that is how a person feels. Of course this sort of ennui is only possible in a rich materialistic society, with time for idle hands and minds. The world is a different (and better) place for me having lived in it for 65 years. How much more meaning does a man need than that? Suppose you are right. You prefer the suffering to the band aid?

[XenoFish]

Suffering for me would be living a lie that's based on false hope and empty promises. There is a scary level of personal freedom in my existential point of view. I don't have to make myself to be great, not having to constantly brag about how good a person I am, not continuously remind people of my achievements. Doing that would only show how self important I would be. I only know one person on UM that does this.

Edited April 9, 2017 by XenoFish

[Mr Walker]

6 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Suffering for me would be living a lie that's based on false hope and empty promises. There is a scary level of personal freedom in my existential point of view. I don't have to make myself to be great, not having to constantly brag about how good a person I am, not continuously remind people of my achievements. Doing that would only show how self important I would be. I only know one person on UM that does this.

But of course if you were living it and believing it, they would not be FALSE hopes and promises.

 First theris no way you ca n KNOW they are false  This is a belief you hold just the same as a positive belief.   Second life is about living.  Even if the promises are false, belief in them improves the quality of life for us while still living

I am not sure of the relevance of the rest of your comments.  What has greatness go to do with anything?  I am talking about happiness, respect, love, quality of life, connection to others etc.

 It is true that some lives are greater/better  than others because their quality is better.

 What also has freedom got to do with the equation. You are trapped by your disbelief just as believer is trapped.  It i s clear that  you have no more freedom than a believer  

 I guess you see my comments as bragging  I wonder why that is?

I explain them to answer questions like yours, about how can a non existent god make a difference    Outside of these forums and the organisations concerned, for example, not a single soul knows what my wife and i have donated to help people and animals over the 40 plus years of  our marriage (oh i guess the tax office does)

We cant hide fostering homeless children or work in the community but it is a duty and a obligation, done out of love, as part of being human.

Ive never thought of taking pride in caring for my parents in law with alzheimer's for 6 years  for example  Others seem to think it was incredibly brave and noble.  For us it was just part of our obligation to our parents and a reflection of the love the y gave us as children.   .

If i say i live without fear, anger, jealousy, loneliness, or depression, that is not bragging. it is a simple truth,  and a result of how I live. I keep telling people about it, because all and every human can live a life without those terrible negative emotions which damage and destroy so many people.  People around me in the real world  can observe and learn from how i behave and live my life, and can judge me on that.

People on uM can only know about me what i tell them  So, if i want to tell peole they can live a life free from fear, anger, loneliness, depression etc. i need to explain how that is possible because they cant see me living it in action.  I am no more important than you but i do love and respect myself which allows me to love and respect others.

I suspect that if you had more love and respect for yourself, you would not feel so threatened or belittled by my life  ( otherwise i cant understand why you see it as bragging)  

(I base this on your own explanation that you feel life is pointless meaningless etc.   I assume you include your own life in that description. )

 I am the opposite. I was raised to make a difference, and to honour, respect, and have a duty to others.   All my life has had a point, and i am incredibly fortunate, as a teacher, to have had so much positive feedback from students This has been  ranging from  actually saving their lives, because my help stopped them committing suicide, through giving them a love of learning, to teaching them to love and respect themselves,. to simply giving them the skills to do well and get the jobs they want

  The deputy principal  and a quarter of my old schools staff, are now ex students of mine   My local butcher, many of the other shop owners, my banker, lawyer, conveyancer, and one of my doctors were all students of mine. My plumber  and electrician  are ex students .   I HAVE made a difference, and my life has had a point.  And i get incredible trade discounts and freebies  

I dont see others who tell me how to live (because the y have found a better way of living), as bragging. I thank them for contributing to my knowledge.and understanding. Thus i have picked up things from secular humanism christianity, judaism, buddhism, jainism,  and pagan philosophies, among many,  and integrated them into my way of living. 

Edited April 9, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

6 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Suffering for me would be living a lie that's based on false hope and empty promises. There is a scary level of personal freedom in my existential point of view. I don't have to make myself to be great, not having to constantly brag about how good a person I am, not continuously remind people of my achievements. Doing that would only show how self important I would be. I only know one person on UM that does this.

Maybe you SHOULD take pride in your achievements, and talk more often about them. They are important. They show how YOU have made a difference.  This is not a competition  i am not going to judge myself against you or vice versa.  But you need to honestly reflect on your achievements, the pride you can take in them, how you have made a difference,  what more you can do in life, and how you can make an even   bIGGER difference.

OR stop worrying about what i do with my life, and my achievements. .  

[+Sherapy]

16 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

No. it is an evolved cognitive property of a self aware mind. It evolved to help people cope, to provide ways to resolve guilt and conscience etc. It can be used for good or evil but this is always a free willed and informed choice by the person who makes the choice.

Humans are cognitively programmed by evolution not only to believe and have faith, but to be optimistic rather than pessimistic. This is how a self aware mind survives its awreness of the nature of itself and the world around it, without driving its self mad.

A meme is a social construct passed on via culture. While specific religions might be thought of as memes, the religion belief or faith of an individual is, by the nature of human cognition, a genetic cognitive imperative existing in all self aware beings ie we individually construct our own unique faith or belief as we do with everything in life based on the unique experiences of our lives and minds.

And then there is simply don't do the things that would lead to guilt or shame. It isn't nessecary for everyone to make a crutch of faith or anything for that matter as you are pimping, not that it is wrong to have a path, but people do just fine without religious filters. Take away the religion and you can still have optimism, find value in things, nurture relationships and have strong support systems.

  

Why not just say due to your life circumstances religion works best for you and then extend that same respect to all others and you would go along way in bridging the divide you have created with your online peers and maybe even make friends with people who walk all kinds of paths. For a person who preaches so much about optimism, you do not apply it, you see thru the lens of division. IMHO

[Mr Guitar]

God is an invention of a backward people who didn't understand their environment and, fearfully, explained it all away by laying the blame on a divine creator. The farce has been continued to this day by all organized religions that use this fear as a means of controlling the populace. Nothing divine involved.

[XenoFish]

9 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Maybe you SHOULD take pride in your achievements, and talk more often about them. They are important. They show how YOU have made a difference.  This is not a competition  i am not going to judge myself against you or vice versa.  But you need to honestly reflect on your achievements, the pride you can take in them, how you have made a difference,  what more you can do in life, and how you can make an even   bIGGER difference.

OR stop worrying about what i do with my life, and my achievements. .  

I don't really care about you or your achievements, but it's a distraction from a topic when all you do is talk about how great a person you are. No one cares. It's the same reason I hardly bring up any of my achievements. And who's to say that I don't take pride in what I've achieved? I just don't have a desire to talk about it. I can't write paragraphs about how "great" a person I am, because any "greatness" I might actually have is up to those whom I affect. If they consider me to be a great man, so be it. I'm just a guy who get's stuff done, a survivor.

A great man is not one who brags about himself, a great man is someone who is bragged about by others.

For all your supposed wisdom Walker, you have a short coming in humility. 

[XenoFish]

10 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

But of course if you were living it and believing it, they would not be FALSE hopes and promises.

 First there is no way you can KNOW they are false  This is a belief you hold just the same as a positive belief.   Second life is about living.  Even if the promises are false, belief in them improves the quality of life for us while still living

When was the last time God did something real. You would think that even by the tiniest shred of faith manna would fall from the sky and feed starving children. Prayers would be answered in abundance and there would be some truth to all of it. Yet there is none. The only thing that exist is a subjective delusion of a "powerful" god.

I am not sure of the relevance of the rest of your comments.  What has greatness go to do with anything?  I am talking about happiness, respect, love, quality of life, connection to others etc.

You can all of those and more without a need for religion or any spiritual belief/s.

 It is true that some lives are greater/better  than others because their quality is better.

Religion doesn't guarantee this. 

 What also has freedom got to do with the equation. You are trapped by your disbelief just as believer is trapped.  It i s clear that  you have no more freedom than a believer  

I have more free will than a believer, because my choices are not tempered by spiritual obedience. 

 I guess you see my comments as bragging  I wonder why that is?

Because you are arrogant and a narcissist.

I explain them to answer questions like yours, about how can a non existent god make a difference    Outside of these forums and the organisations concerned, for example, not a single soul knows what my wife and i have donated to help people and animals over the 40 plus years of  our marriage (oh i guess the tax office does)

I'm waiting on the right thread for you to explain how much money you give to others. 

We cant hide fostering homeless children or work in the community but it is a duty and a obligation, done out of love, as part of being human.

And? You do these things out of selfish motivation regardless of god or not. It makes you look good to everyone around you. 

Ive never thought of taking pride in caring for my parents in law with alzheimer's for 6 years  for example  Others seem to think it was incredibly brave and noble.  For us it was just part of our obligation to our parents and a reflection of the love the y gave us as children.   

Again you brag.

If i say i live without fear, anger, jealousy, loneliness, or depression, that is not bragging. it is a simple truth,  and a result of how I live. I keep telling people about it, because all and every human can live a life without those terrible negative emotions which damage and destroy so many people.  People around me in the real world  can observe and learn from how i behave and live my life, and can judge me on that.

If you live without emotions you are a sociopath. The problem with people like you is that by neglecting the darker aspect of life (the negative emotions) you have no growth as a human being. 

People on uM can only know about me what i tell them  So, if i want to tell peole they can live a life free from fear, anger, loneliness, depression etc. i need to explain how that is possible because they cant see me living it in action.  I am no more important than you but i do love and respect myself which allows me to love and respect others.

That's because no matter how disciplined the mind those emotions still exist and function, unless you have some mental health issue.

I suspect that if you had more love and respect for yourself, you would not feel so threatened or belittled by my life  ( otherwise i cant understand why you see it as bragging)  

The only thing I feel in regards to you in annoyance.

(I base this on your own explanation that you feel life is pointless meaningless etc.   I assume you include your own life in that description. )

 I am the opposite. I was raised to make a difference, and to honour, respect, and have a duty to others.   All my life has had a point, and i am incredibly fortunate, as a teacher, to have had so much positive feedback from students This has been  ranging from  actually saving their lives, because my help stopped them committing suicide, through giving them a love of learning, to teaching them to love and respect themselves,. to simply giving them the skills to do well and get the jobs they want

So you ignorantly think that because I see the meaninglessness of all things I am somehow unhappy? That life means nothing to me. I see the absolute freedom that I actually have. I don't have to become a "thing". I don't have to follow the crowd or become another sheep in the church. Again you are being the braggart. Like always. "Oh, I'm Mr.Walker look how great I am." 

  The deputy principal  and a quarter of my old schools staff, are now ex students of mine   My local butcher, many of the other shop owners, my banker, lawyer, conveyancer, and one of my doctors were all students of mine. My plumber  and electrician  are ex students .   I HAVE made a difference, and my life has had a point.  And i get incredible trade discounts and freebies  

La De Da.... Once again you're bragging. 

I dont see others who tell me how to live (because the y have found a better way of living), as bragging. I thank them for contributing to my knowledge.and understanding. Thus i have picked up things from secular humanism christianity, judaism, buddhism, jainism,  and pagan philosophies, among many,  and integrated them into my way of living. 

Here is where your arrogance comes through. Here you are telling me that you have the "better life". Because you think you are right. Religion gave you a divine boner that you want to whip out and show everyone. 

 

[godnodog]

On 4/5/2017 at 10:48 AM, kartikg said:

I was just thinking, if God does come down to earth, how would he prove that he is god. Without breaking any laws of nature.

He can materialize stuff "out of thin air", he can answer any real question

[Mr Walker]

5 hours ago, XenoFish said:

When was the last time God did something real. You would think that even by the tiniest shred of faith manna would fall from the sky and feed starving children. Prayers would be answered in abundance and there would be some truth to all of it. Yet there is none. The only thing that exist is a subjective delusion of a "powerful" god.

Just because god hasn't done anything real and physical for you doesnt mean he has not for me, or for others.  Individual experience differs in everything in life Prayers ARE answered in abundance, but god is also proactive; protecting and empowering, teaching and guiding, without the need for prayer.

Quote

You can all of those and more without a need for religion or any spiritual belief/s.

Of course a person can, but that wasn't what i said. I said I would never have done those things, and those people would never have benefitted if god had not physically manifested to me and redirected my life and my priorities. 

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Religion doesn't guarantee this. 

I never said it did.I said we can objectively assess lifestyle choices, based on lifestyle outcomes.

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I have more free will than a believer, because my choices are not tempered by spiritual obedienc

Your choices are tempered and confined by many things including your own beliefs. A believer is one, by an act of free will, and thus all further decisions fall within acts of free will. No believer is forced to do anything.they make choices as freely as oyu do Just different ones. 

Quote

Because you are arrogant and a narcissist.

That is just circular logic You see me as bragging because i am a narcissist but you see me a s a narcissistic because you see me as bragging. Why do you see a person telling simple truths about their life to answer questions and expalint heir way of living as bragging.  Dont compare me with your self Ie I am not setting myself up as better or superior to you.  You should not even think of yourself as in any way inferior to me. 

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I'm waiting on the right thread for you to explain how much money you give to others. 

Dont quite understand this. Ive explained  few times that since our marriage I have earned from about 50000 t 100000 dollars a year My wife has never worked r money since we married 40 years ago   Each year we have given away between  20 and 30 % of that income directly, and used more to support people we were caring for without any recompense.  In total while ive never worked it out, this is close to 1 million dollars.We now live comfortably on an income of $35000 of which we give away about  $5000 We have always lived a comfortable life, although only had one short holiday ( in our state) in the last 30 years or so. 

Quote

And? You do these things out of selfish motivation regardless of god or not. It makes you look good to everyone around you. 

ROFLMAO You have no idea, do you ?  This reflects and explains your own way of thinking  NO ONE KNOWS about the money  and  generally no one really knew or cared about the kids we looked after.  But basically i dont think you get it . We acted form concepts like love, duty, honour, compassion. And would have done what was right even if NO ONE knew about it.

But given your own sense of nihilism about the pointlessness of life, I think you are sincere in really not getting this. 

Quote

Again you brag.

Answered above

Quote

If you live without emotions you are a sociopath. The problem with people like you is that by neglecting the darker aspect of life (the negative emotions) you have no growth as a human being

Two comments First i chose to live without the negative and destructive elements of emotional response and to take responsibility for my behaviours That is the opposite of sociopathy.

Second I can see where you are coming from but to be angry, afraid, sad, jealous and lonely, etc is not a natural or inevitable human condition.

My growth and evolution is  from the darkness into the light.  Thus i grow and strengthen the emotions i mentioned above; love compassion connection  happiness and peace of mind.

 

Quote

That's because no matter how disciplined the mind those emotions still exist and function, unless you have some mental health issue.

Scientifically (and in practice)  it is the other way around.  Those who lack control over their emotional and behavioural responses are those with mental health issues 

 

Quote

The only thing I feel in regards to you in annoyance.

I am not responsible for how you choose to feel about me.  

Quote

So you ignorantly think that because I see the meaninglessness of all things I am somehow unhappy? That life means nothing to me. I see the absolute freedom that I actually have. I don't have to become a "thing". I don't have to follow the crowd or become another sheep in the church. Again you are being the braggart. Like always. "Oh, I'm Mr.Walker look how great I a

 I assess your responses based on information you have given us, and on   the nature of those responses Eg i ask myself  "why does xeno see me as bragging"  

You will have to explain why, if you feel life is pointless/meaningless, you manage to not only cope with that but remain happy.  Even in these words above,  there is negativity, anger ,and a sense of inadequacy that you have to establish your identity via difference. BUT  I have never met you, dont know you, and cant assess you accurately (even though you feel totally happy calling me everything from a braggart, through ignorant , to a sociopath  

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La De Da.... Once again you're bragging. 

Once again this was a simple explanation of how y life has had meaning and purpose ad the difference it has made Why, again, do you see this as bragging. 

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Here is where your arrogance comes through. Here you are telling me that you have the "better life". Because you think you are right. Religion gave you a divine boner that you want to whip out and show every

Actually this section had nothing to do with any pf that I was explaining how my life has evolved and how i have learned from many beliefs. 

I have an excellent life i tis measurably better than most human beings, in part through good luck but also through good management.

 I have NEVER made any comparison with your own life. i don't know anything about  your life. It is YOU who is judging yourself less than me, not me judging myself better than you. You know a lot about my life and your own  so only you can make that judgement.  

Edited April 10, 2017 by Mr Walker

[XenoFish]

I'm tired of reading your nonsense. I knew there was a reason I had you on ignore. 

[Mr Walker]

23 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I'm tired of reading your nonsense. I knew there was a reason I had you on ignore. 

 Well that is a rational response I took some time and trouble to respond to questions and comments by you,  which also included direct personal insults about me  This all,  (my lengthy response)  goes to how god can prove himself to a person. But, naturally, as you adamantly  refuse to even countenance the possible existence of gods,  all my responses WOULD be perceived as nonsense by you.

   You have no freedom  to believe otherwise, being trapped within your own paradigm.

Happy ignorance. (pun on ignoring me)  

[XenoFish]

Your god is dead. 

[Mr Walker]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Your god is dead. 

lol What is that supposed to mean?  I thought you believed it never existed?

 I think this discussion has run its course, and while I disagree with you on some things,  and do point out that  (based on the real experiences in my life) you are wrong about the non existence of an entity humans call god, I feel that   further argument will only get more personal,  because it goes to identity and sense of self.  

You dont believe me, and have no good reason to.

I can respect that, if not the names you then apply to me.  probably BECAUSE my experiences threaten your disbelief, if you were to accept them as true. .  

Edited April 10, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Rlyeh]

On ‎8‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 11:00 PM, I hide behind words said:

For me truth is subjective and elusive, but more importantly it is revealed and revised, a composite and shared, yours is maybe revealed if using revelation being only the domain of scientific method, and shared if shared means science is and right and all else is wrong, that is kinda forced like religionist do it, and if you did look i am sure you could draw from several theories of truth to define how you view it, based on consenus and contained further by a strict system to proclaim it, for me it is more a force that entails that but really is about Revelation, that is from unreality into reality with the end goal of healing and moving together as a group because of it as the tide lifts all ships, and that it also constantly improves us as a  single being, none can contain all truth be it a person or a system, and any who try will fall short, and play judge seriously but childishly, and i am learning it is nothing to be fought over, so you are right, all i add on might be wrong, but if it work for you and yours i am glad, i don't discredit your version of truth, only the piggy back concept of declaring others of having falsehoods.

Truth then for you is how good you are at redefining words? To me this is just an attempt at saving face.

 

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i think much is to be revealed to me and you, but what we know is not falsehood no matter what, unless we are intentionally lyings and don't believe what we post, i bet if we went on forever you would break before me on our defintions of truths because my view also is based on power, not the kind we use to win and demolish the losers by force, soft power that when used adds and grows, empowers all, more power is made, while your form of power behind your concept of truth is using energy that will not be replenished. no worries there is a good intentions sink somewhere in shambalah and maybe your own local mystical kingdom, here we call it aztlan, and others here before us say a time is coming when the buffalo herds will return, mystically of course, we wont see the herds again i dont thinik, but the power and the way they thrived in the land by using it for the best way with all they had was lost by power plays that destroyed harmony, your truth is backed up by good stuff but then ends with right or wrong, which is bogus sucker choice, dualism, also behind god and the devil at odds lol, you are in their camp with this, and my truth lives and ignores right and wrong but knows both work together to bring truth, you telling others they are wrong point blank is somehow the right thing and right energy we need to keep all this going, but it wont be needed forever, and truth as you see it will be as if it never existed, and truth that comes from many sources, rivers, wells, and ocean full of it, is just a part of who we are.

The thing is the opposite of true is false. My true is based on reason while you admit yours is arbitrary.

 

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we talked but there was no conversation, sorry i used lingo that just seems bogus, but how far does your road go? as far as they say? mine goes on forever because eternal truth in the end transcends the limited lifespan of the truth we claim and talkeds about just now, all that yours and mine, wont survive the sun which was born and will die

Does yours go on forever or just until you run out of material?

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so if im right you get a win, and if i am wrong at least my version is polite in one form and open and wishing you the best, a gift in itself here and now, and i overdo it cause i accept the same from you even if you will offer it later, science wont always be discussed in coldness with yes no true false fallacy. MANY FORMS OF DUALISM BUT SCIENCE TELLS US THAT ONE IS BASED ON FIGHT OR FLIGHT, TWO OPTIONS, AND ANOTHER SPEAKS OF A TIME WHEN ZORHASTRIANISM MADE IT PART OF RELIGION, THE SEMITES PICKED IT UP WITH GOD AND DEVIL, GOOD AND EVIL, RIGHT AND WRONG BECAME SOMETHING OF WHAT WE SEE NOW, AND THAT IS STRONG IN HOW SOME CLAIM SCIENCE IS RIGHT AND ALL ELSE IS WRONG, DRAPER WHITE THESES SHOWS HOW SCIENCE AND RELIGION WORK IN TANDEM, AND ANOTHER SCIENTIFIC INSIGHT YOU MIGHT WANT TO RESEARCH IF PYSHCOLOGY  AND HSTORU IS YOUR THING, CAUSE UNSURE WHO SAID IT BUT THEY HAD CREDENTIALS, IS THAT RELGION IS 20 YEARS BEHIND SCIENCE, A LAG TIME, AND IN THEY AGREE ON THE END, DUE TO RELGION HOLDING TRADTION TO UPHOLD TRUTH, WHAT WORKED IS GOOD, SO IT IS RESISTANT TO CHANGE FAST, AND SCIENCE PUSHING AHEAD WITH FASTER REVISION AND BEING ON THE FOREFRONT, BUT ITS ALL TRUTH AND IF YOU CLAIM SCIENCE SO MUCH EVEN YOU WOULD AGREE

These have nothing to do with each other. Fight or flight isn't analogous to good or evil or God or Satan, neither fight nor flight is inherently good or evil.

Science supports it's theories, religion doesn't even have a stake in that game.

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but what i see is not real science which is limited and scientist know that but scientism and i leave you with an excerpt of an article penned by thomas burnett

not the theologian

Thomas is a former BioLogos Associate Editor. He currently works in science communications at the National Academy of Sciences, and he has also worked with the American Scientific Affiliation and the American Association for the Advancement of Science. He has degrees in philosophy and the history of science from Rice University and University of California, Berkeley. - See more at: http://biologos.org/author/thomas-burnett#sthash.0Xaj0p5t.dpuf

Scientism of Today

Scientism today is alive and well, as evidenced by the statements of our celebrity scientists:

“The Cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be.” –Carl Sagan, Cosmos

“The more the universe seems comprehensible, the more it also seems pointless.” –Stephen Weinburg, The First Three Minutes

“We can be proud as a species because, having discovered that we are alone, we owe the gods very little.” –E.O. Wilson, Consilience

While these men are certainly entitled to their personal opinions and the freedom to express them, the fact that they make such bold claims in their popular science literature blurs the line between solid, evidence-based science, and rampant philosophical speculation. Whether one agrees with the sentiments of these scientists or not, the result of these public pronouncements has served to alienate a large segment of American society. And that is a serious problem, since scientific research relies heavily upon public support for its funding, and environmental policy is shaped by lawmakers who listen to their constituents. From a purely pragmatic standpoint, it would be wise to try a different approach.

I don't see it that way, one definition of the universe is everything that has and will exist. So Sagan was correct.

Despite using "Scientism" as pejorative I don't have a problem with it, it has a far more solid foundation than any superstitious ideology.

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by Rlyeh

[Podo]

On 2017-04-08 at 5:54 PM, XenoFish said:

Religion is a memetic virus that's infected all of us at some point. And if left alone in certain minds psychosis develops. Delusions of grandeur, etc.

You've read Snow Crash, haven't you?

[GoldenWolf]

On 4/8/2017 at 6:07 PM, Mr Walker said:

1. And this of course would NOT be a memetic virus, delusion , mental safety mechanism? Human minds develop faith belief and even relgions in response to environmental stimuli and cognitive capacity, NOT by learning them from others (although this also occurs as one gets old enough to communicate)
2. People like you and mystic crusader have also combined modern societal memes, with conclusions your mind has reached based on your Previous experiences, to construct an alternative pov. Its natural, but also  wrong, to assume that your perceptions of faith, belief, and religion are right, and every one elses wrong. 
3. Your construction is exactly the same in form and function as a believers,  and serves the same psychological need for you as belief does for them.

 

You know nothing.

[XenoFish]

1 hour ago, Podo said:

You've read Snow Crash, haven't you?

Actually no. But after looking it up I'm going to have to track down/order a copy.

[+Sherapy]

18 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Just because god hasn't done anything real and physical for you doesnt mean he has not for me, or for others.  Individual experience differs in everything in life Prayers ARE answered in abundance, but god is also proactive; protecting and empowering, teaching and guiding, without the need for prayer.

Of course a person can, but that wasn't what i said. I said I would never have done those things, and those people would never have benefitted if god had not physically manifested to me and redirected my life and my priorities. 

I never said it did.I said we can objectively assess lifestyle choices, based on lifestyle outcomes.

Your choices are tempered and confined by many things including your own beliefs. A believer is one, by an act of free will, and thus all further decisions fall within acts of free will. No believer is forced to do anything.they make choices as freely as oyu do Just different ones. 

That is just circular logic You see me as bragging because i am a narcissist but you see me a s a narcissistic because you see me as bragging. Why do you see a person telling simple truths about their life to answer questions and expalint heir way of living as bragging.  Dont compare me with your self Ie I am not setting myself up as better or superior to you.  You should not even think of yourself as in any way inferior to me. 

Dont quite understand this. Ive explained  few times that since our marriage I have earned from about 50000 t 100000 dollars a year My wife has never worked r money since we married 40 years ago   Each year we have given away between  20 and 30 % of that income directly, and used more to support people we were caring for without any recompense.  In total while ive never worked it out, this is close to 1 million dollars.We now live comfortably on an income of $35000 of which we give away about  $5000 We have always lived a comfortable life, although only had one short holiday ( in our state) in the last 30 years or so. 

ROFLMAO You have no idea, do you ?  This reflects and explains your own way of thinking  NO ONE KNOWS about the money  and  generally no one really knew or cared about the kids we looked after.  But basically i dont think you get it . We acted form concepts like love, duty, honour, compassion. And would have done what was right even if NO ONE knew about it.

But given your own sense of nihilism about the pointlessness of life, I think you are sincere in really not getting this. 

Answered above

Two comments First i chose to live without the negative and destructive elements of emotional response and to take responsibility for my behaviours That is the opposite of sociopathy.

Second I can see where you are coming from but to be angry, afraid, sad, jealous and lonely, etc is not a natural or inevitable human condition.

My growth and evolution is  from the darkness into the light.  Thus i grow and strengthen the emotions i mentioned above; love compassion connection  happiness and peace of mind.

 

Scientifically (and in practice)  it is the other way around.  Those who lack control over their emotional and behavioural responses are those with mental health issues 

 

I am not responsible for how you choose to feel about me.  

 I assess your responses based on information you have given us, and on   the nature of those responses Eg i ask myself  "why does xeno see me as bragging"  

You will have to explain why, if you feel life is pointless/meaningless, you manage to not only cope with that but remain happy.  Even in these words above,  there is negativity, anger ,and a sense of inadequacy that you have to establish your identity via difference. BUT  I have never met you, dont know you, and cant assess you accurately (even though you feel totally happy calling me everything from a braggart, through ignorant , to a sociopath  

Once again this was a simple explanation of how y life has had meaning and purpose ad the difference it has made Why, again, do you see this as bragging. 

Actually this section had nothing to do with any pf that I was explaining how my life has evolved and how i have learned from many beliefs. 

I have an excellent life i tis measurably better than most human beings, in part through good luck but also through good management.

 I have NEVER made any comparison with your own life. i don't know anything about  your life. It is YOU who is judging yourself less than me, not me judging myself better than you. You know a lot about my life and your own  so only you can make that judgement.  

MW, a person who insists they do not have an emotional nature, don't feel guilt ( no conscience), have a grandiose sense of self or have no use for emotions is defined as either a sociopath or a psychopath, of course, I am not arguing you are a sociopath, but I really don't think you mean to say these things about yourself. I just don't think you connect to what you are actually implying. 

Taking care of others doesn't automatically make you an empathetic, compassionate person, lots of people take care of family out of obligation and they suck at it, or are overwhelmed by it., or are not suited to it. 

Giving away money doesn't mean you are generous and I'd say in your case if you give anything away it is to get something in return at least according to all of your posts saying this And, I have seen many posters ask you to use the incredible talents you brag about to help others, to make a better world  and you have refused. 

 

IMHO, You could benefit from a dose of humility, in fact, you say it is a flaw, you see it as you are somehow inferior, I think your understanding is the problem, humility acts as a checks and balance in social settings, come one we all get full of ourself at times, especially when our ego feels threatened, but humilty is the ability that reminds us to get over ourself, to understand at the end of the day we are all equal we all have strengths and flaws. I think you bring on a lot of the social issues you have in this area due to an aversion to humility, and I don't think your lack of emotional nature is helping you at all it seems it has depleted you of the ability to know when and where to leave yourself out of the argument, Being humble is a trait that knows when to remove competition and move towards unity and equality. 

 

[XenoFish]

22 hours ago, godnodog said:

He can materialize stuff "out of thin air", he can answer any real question

So he can tell us what created "him" and what existed before "him"?

[+Sherapy]

16 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

lol What is that supposed to mean?  I thought you believed it never existed?

 I think this discussion has run its course, and while I disagree with you on some things,  and do point out that  (based on the real experiences in my life) you are wrong about the non existence of an entity humans call god, I feel that   further argument will only get more personal,  because it goes to identity and sense of self.  

You dont believe me, and have no good reason to.

I can respect that, if not the names you then apply to me.  probably BECAUSE my experiences threaten your disbelief, if you were to accept them as true. .  

Certainly, as an ex Athiest you can appreciate an apathesits point of view.

I think it is you who is threatened by X's disbelief. 

Why would you insist that others should just accept your beliefs as true in the S vs. S forum? 

Intelligence in application seeks neutrality, compromise, and respect, not dogmatic righteousness. 

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by Sherapy