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How will God prove himself?

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Frank Merton

It seems to me fairly obvious that a God who proves himself is not God but some sort of fraud or maybe very advanced technology.  Were Jesus to appear one morning in the clouds surrounded by the choir of angels, I would probably go along with it all for safety's sake, but not believe a bit of it.  I might not be able to explain how the trick was pulled off, but I would know it was a trick.

Any real God knows that nothing he could do might not be duplicated with technology, so he doesn't engage in such things.  It would, shall we say, be "below" his dignity.

There have in history been efforts to "prove" the existence of God using logic.  The problem is logic is always subject to flaws and errors, so for something so absolute, no such proof would be sufficient.  (The proffered proofs haven't been very good anyway).

Asking for proof, then, is too much.  But of course that also means we can't believe -- we can only form a reasonable opinion of the chances that he is ""here" or he is not, based on evidences.  The evidence is overwhelming (from the nature of existence, the existence of suffering, the fact that existing religions are so stupid, and others) that there is no such thing, so I don't believe, and call myself an atheist.  It's on the same order of magnitude that I have the opinion that the earth an oblate spheroid -- the evidence is extremely convincing but the opinion remains no more than my opinion.

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Mr Walker
9 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

If you've got proof of aliens then share with the world Walker. Change everything with it. Do it. Prove it.

Even if there was an advanced alien race they still wouldn't be gods. They'd just be advanced aliens. Only an idiot would think they were gods.

Well then you believe that  most humans are idiots. About 90 % of modern humans still believe in a higher power  Given such a power is clearly not human, it is alien. You have just labelled 90% of humans as idiots.  God is just a name e attach to certin entities Like magic is a name we attach to technologies beyond our understanding. 

I am changing the world

I bet i have done far more than you ever will to change it for the better. if not for gods existence hundreds of children would have died from  starvation whom we have fed   thousands of villagers would have died from unsafe water and lack of sanitation.  Several young people would have never got an education in asia and africa, and a dozen young abandoned and homeless local people would not have been loved, cared for and given back their future.

  A dozen women would not have had seed funding to start businesses to make them independent and to provide for themselves and their families  Many animals would not have been saved or helped by our work and funding with several animal welfare groups.  By revealing himself to me, god has made a difference not only in my life but in the lives of thousands of others.  This could also have been accomplished if i simply believed , but i am incapable of belief and so god had to reveal  himself to me to change my life and to have me and my wife help all those people.

Your attitude is natural and understandable, but based on your own lack of exerince with this alien entity and its powers.   

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Mr Walker
5 minutes ago, Frank Merton said:

It seems to me fairly obvious that a God who proves himself is not God but some sort of fraud or maybe very advanced technology.  Were Jesus to appear one morning in the clouds surrounded by the choir of angels, I would probably go along with it all for safety's sake, but not believe a bit of it.  I might not be able to explain how the trick was pulled off, but I would know it was a trick.

Any real God knows that nothing he could do might not be duplicated with technology, so he doesn't engage in such things.  It would, shall we say, be "below" his dignity.

There have in history been efforts to "prove" the existence of God using logic.  The problem is logic is always subject to flaws and errors, so for something so absolute, no such proof would be sufficient.  (The proffered proofs haven't been very good anyway).

Asking for proof, then, is too much.  But of course that also means we can't believe -- we can only form a reasonable opinion of the chances that he is ""here" or he is not, based on evidences.  The evidence is overwhelming (from the nature of existence, the existence of suffering, the fact that existing religions are so stupid, and others) that there is no such thing, so I don't believe, and call myself an atheist.  It's on the same order of magnitude that I have the opinion that the earth an oblate spheroid -- the evidence is extremely convincing but the opinion remains no more than my opinion.

Fair comment frank but it comes form within a mind which has already revealed how it feels about the existence of gods All evidences are personal ie you  have to experience them to know they a re true Thus a person with no expernce of god has a choice of belief or disbelief  But a person confronted with absolute and compelling evidences for the existence of such an entity really has no choice other than to be practical and logical and let knowldge overrule disbelief.

 it is as if you were picked up by an alien and taken for a spin around the solar system You could know absolutely that this was a real experience but you  would have no hope of proving this to anyone who wasn't there.  Nonetheless it would immediately transform not only your whole word view, but your attitude to what was important and real in life. 

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Sherapy
13 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

LOL there goes therapy again doing her own psychological assessment of my needs and drivers, based on her own attitudes and values and harsh up bringing. She never reads a word i actually say but just sees things through her own life long experiences and beliefs.  Only problem is, sherapy that  ive been like this from  age 22 when god first butted into my life. i was a young handsome successful person just finishing uni.  i was fit healthy loved and totally well adjusted  i was popular and  life was good.    I was an atheist and a secular humanist. While moral and ethical i was not religious. i had no need for god and indeed his intervention was a real pain in the butt.  How do you fit that into your diagnoses.?  Also i simply don't see life as you d.o There IS no bad thing in my life. not one. Every thing which happens to me is life affirming and a chance to learn and grow. 

 

Your patronism and well wishes are equally noted sherapy  But to me your life has been much harder and stressful than my own .  While god has been good to me there is nothing in my life which makes me need a god . I have everything i need without god.  He is just a wonderful bonus.

As I said, your journey is more about you than any of us. 

 

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Mr Walker
24 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Your narcissism is showing Walker. 

Noted but dismissed  it might be narcissism if it wasn't reality.  What do you find to be particularly narcissistic remembering that i urge all humans to find a path to be everything the y can be and to contribute all the y can to others?  That i believe that only by human endeavour, wisely applied, can we create a  physical and emotional paradise on earth and survive to expand into our galaxy.

 ps for a peron who doesnt believe in gods you seem overly sensitive when i talk about how god has influenced my life. if it doesn't exist it couldnt influence me right it couldn't save my life empower me or make me "special". How does attributing all you have and all you aren to a god make one narcissistic?

Oh might it be that you are aggrieved that i might claim contact with  a god ?  (but no you dont believe in them, so why should that bother you?)  :) 

Edited by Mr Walker
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Sherapy
1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

Fair comment frank but it comes form within a mind which has already revealed how it feels about the existence of gods All evidences are personal ie you  have to experience them to know they a re true Thus a person with no expernce of god has a choice of belief or disbelief  But a person confronted with absolute and compelling evidences for the existence of such an entity really has no choice other than to be practical and logical and let knowldge overrule disbelief.

 it is as if you were picked up by an alien and taken for a spin around the solar system You could know absolutely that this was a real experience but you  would have no hope of proving this to anyone who wasn't there.  Nonetheless it would immediately transform not only your whole word view, but your attitude to what was important and real in life. 

All you are saying is you believe anything your mind thinks no questions asked. 

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Mr Walker
55 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

There is nothing that could convince me something is a god, because with each effort new questions would be presented. It would be pointless. 

Again there is nothing. God is just a figment of the imagination. 

Thats what i figured but i wanted to see if you had thought it through. It isnt a very wise position you appreciate?  You have set up a world view which precludes accepting any  future evidences which might change your mind.

Actually i have some sympathy with it I agree  that  there are no actual gods just as there is no such thing as actual magic  Only entities so wise and powerful that early,  and even modern, humans have made them into gods;. and only natural forces  or technologies which we do not yet understand and so call magic or supernatural.  I have no doubt that, given time and our own survival, eventually other species and races will one day think of us as gods, for the same reasons we think of certain entities as gods.  

Edited by Mr Walker

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MWoo7

Nothing profound I like knowledge.  I like facts not super-hyper-elaborated THEORETICAL jargon/lingo in your next book there prof or psychoanalyst shrink professor adding to your bible of job security and self centered security adding as many new spin words as you can, yes I've run into a few bravado types like that.
Recap: knowledge is nice, so are facts, not to say Gnostics had it all but they were certainly in better light than most at the time o f witch burning inquisition enlightening times of pun.

In my studies TOTALLY IGNORED! and I'm thinking ,? can they read or just notice a lady without mutiple Ph.D's?

A curiosity that, I'll never understand, for some papers, almost thrown out, others depicting the idiocy o f their bible/genre/course-books and received and A+, a true curiosity.  Oops talking away here and almost forgetting tact, hope this isn't deleted.

Edited by MWoo7
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Clarakore
10 hours ago, StarMountainKid said:

My friend Zarkor met God once, and all God did was complain about His working conditions, the long hours, the paperwork required in creating universes, the time spent away from His family, the incompetence His Angles tending to details, managing deadlines, cost over-runs, ...

But mainly, He said had never been satisfied with the results of all His tedious efforts. He could never get it quite right, no matter how many universes He created. There was always some flaw in the design. He blamed this on the poor quality of the raw materials He had to work with.

He also said all the  rules and regulations he was constrained with was limiting His imagination, and this obstinate quantum stuff He couldn't quite get a handle on or understand prevented Him from creating perfection, which was the original idea in His mind.

In a fit of frustration He did admit to an elusive Higher Power, which He called, "The Boss", who He considered responsible for this fundamental imperfections that constantly occurred in His creations.

God didn't go into details, but Zarkor assumed this "Boss" was a tricky fellow, probably some psychological defect in God's mind itself. Zarkor figured, being God would lead to a psychotic state of mind and felt sorry for HIm, as probably He had become schizophrenic, attempting perfection over and over again for eternity, yet never managing to accomplish His ideal aspiration.

 

lOVE THIS!!!!

Thank you for posting. And so much truth in it too. One word for boss in Spanish is patron. Which comes from the word father. Unsure why patron in English came about but I will find out.

We are the angels and It has been managing us for so long, when will we pick up the slack?

The multiverse and the variations of it is boggling. But we will bring about the perfect one. When we get more power on the other otherr side most likely, we will be able to run the simulation of all of Creation we know again and again. And the perfect version is always being brought about even now by the editors of the Akashic Records which is you too.

Getting to God with rules and regs or quantum all falls short eh?

The real God is not the one we have constructed a real Boss is about and she wants to promote you too.

And anyone attempting to learn all the mysteries. which can't be solved but pondered only, and can't be learned all, but try and go insane or die. None can stand in the Presence of God without cleansing. Thing is we got the process of it but few use it fully. Forgiveness is a gift no work required. One of the perks of being a low level laborer in the fields.

My name is Saturntosun and I will tell you all more later about life in the second world, where we go when we "die" but truly it is life part 2. Third heaven or bust!!! Together we will get there save the many who have been taken by the boss person directly.

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Clarakore
4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Noted but dismissed  it might be narcissism if it wasn't reality.  What do you find to be particularly narcissistic remembering that i urge all humans to find a path to be everything the y can be and to contribute all the y can to others?  That i believe that only by human endeavour, wisely applied, can we create a  physical and emotional paradise on earth and survive to expand into our galaxy.

 ps for a peron who doesnt believe in gods you seem overly sensitive when i talk about how god has influenced my life. if it doesn't exist it couldnt influence me right it couldn't save my life empower me or make me "special". How does attributing all you have and all you aren to a god make one narcissistic?

Oh might it be that you are aggrieved that i might claim contact with  a god ?  (but no you dont believe in them, so why should that bother you?)  :) 

Yesterdays reading from Upmost for His Highest agrees with Sheri. It said it is about you more than others until you fully have received a few more lessons. As a believer it is the system we should follow as others have their own. The verse discussed was Mark 9:9.John 6:2 was mentioned. Saint Augustine told us that the best form of being a witness is best done without even mentioning God.

Up to you to decide if you have already took part of the resurrection, died and come back to life? Few do here and continue the work after death or so we call it death but like the OT said not even the dead hear but NT tells us a time will come when even the dead will hear. Are you listening to God? Or just hearing Him? Does He tell you to defend Him? Or does He help you in other ways. Share bro, what does he say? If only it might help others if not I respect it.

My mom has a a drawing of an angel with her finger on her mouth. I got the lesson finally, shh. I share it with you. I still have not fully let it sink in. I fall short of Mark 9 and John 6.

And Sheri, she does the work of the kingdom in her own way and in many cases better than Christians. She might not agree but she would agree likely that she cares for you cause I doubt she would waste time talking to you so much if not. She respects the relationship you two have but you don't and it is OK. But any advice you give to one when not in a relationship will fail. Thus in the end you will keep your beliefs but realize she was right all along about so many things,

Speaking from experience here as a one time Christian. She is not narcissistic either because there is no pride in her deep convictions and she truly wants to help all or as many as possible. But she will do so with the same fierce determination without the hate that Christian men use. We are narcissistic Walker me and you. Sheri is your sister or maybe mother. Your friend. God sent her to us to change some things so we can better serve all and even get closer to God. God does use others outside of the narrow spectrum of Abrahamic faiths to do His work. His work is to believe. Believe in the best. The Bible was never meant to be law because true law is written on our heart. Romans 2:15 is me and you, gentiles, we don't follow Judaic law as some still do and they will be judged but it, we will be judged by our own conscience.

The Bible is written in your heart I have read a few scriptures but Sheri has a whole book that is part of the Bible I see in this world. I am not white knighting her cause she needs no defense. I am telling you be ready one day your heart of stone will melt. It will be struck with a staff and water will pour the living waters. Sheri is one of the staff holders. But she doesn't claim it for her like Moses did. One day you will be a staff holder. My staff work is for family really so don't think I will join the debates here between you two but it is fun to watch except for the pain it causes you or pain you wish to cause others, can't explain but I see it.

Back to the conversation between me and you now.

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Clarakore
6 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Why does god have to be a 'thing'? When we often discuss god it's a humanoid type construct. Even with the embodiment's such as Jesus. A god-like human, but that's not a god. If we can not define a god, then god can not be honestly discussed. The god we often had thread after thread about is human, a god with human qualities. So it is easy to assume that this god is one of our own creation. And god's word is just the world of man. There is nothing more to this because mankind has made god/s/ess's in our image, the angels and demons in our image, and all the entities in between in our image. 

Yes and yes. But I see another layer it is frivolous true, it is passe in that manner, but then it is serious business bro. Because human is powerful when working in groups. Because we have the power to be God. We have the power to create!!! That is godly and we will do so much more with it like learn what we created by science, create better science, and then create better creations. All religion was about rising from lower nature to higher. Now we must bring the higher, spiritual, into the lower, physical world.

Sorry if you are a reductionist. It is cool but ignores much. I do believe that when uniting our processing power of the frontal lobe we will evolve even more but in a different way like the way technology pushes evolution on another front. Without stone tools we would never have got the meat to develop critical thinking skills. Monkeys also got frontal lobes or some such I read. It is not the end all be all.

Right you are about us being the angels demons and god. We are also the single cell organism that our ancestors were and the thing that crawled out the ocean, the monkey in the tree, and now us.

The line blurs between me and you and also you and your parents and you and your kids. Between us Earth and us and the Sun and moon and stars. You know we are made of star dust. You know we are tied to this Earth now and like the water is 70% of the world so are we.

We disagree on you thinking our word is not that great. Our word and thinking is awesome. The creation of DNA was awesome. The intelligence of it is awesome even if not the standard view of what intelligence is.

Last point is about working in tandem, Studies show surgeons who work as a team work impossibly faster without words than one can work alone when factoring in all the data of how much our speed should be as a group. We become one thinking unit when operating on someone if a close bond exists between surgeons.

 

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Clarakore
4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Noted but dismissed  it might be narcissism if it wasn't reality.  What do you find to be particularly narcissistic remembering that i urge all humans to find a path to be everything the y can be and to contribute all the y can to others?  That i believe that only by human endeavour, wisely applied, can we create a  physical and emotional paradise on earth and survive to expand into our galaxy.

 ps for a peron who doesnt believe in gods you seem overly sensitive when i talk about how god has influenced my life. if it doesn't exist it couldnt influence me right it couldn't save my life empower me or make me "special". How does attributing all you have and all you aren to a god make one narcissistic?

Oh might it be that you are aggrieved that i might claim contact with  a god ?  (but no you dont believe in them, so why should that bother you?)  :) 

An analogy using myth, I see you more as Echo than Narcissus. Just saying lol. Would work best if Echo was male. But like Echo your love will grow because a point comes when love is not about our capacity but Love, a gift of the Spirit.

Edited by I hide behind words

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Clarakore
4 hours ago, Sherapy said:

All you are saying is you believe anything your mind thinks no questions asked. 

A good way to step and speak fallacy indeed. But insight based on intuition can be a powerful thing too and has been behind some of the pushing of the science. Likewise is is one tool that is shared between science and spirituality. True honest to goodness spirituality which has been improving as most Catholics don't go to war with Protestants now or treat non-Abrahamic believeIrs as not even human which Americans did during slavery not so long ago. At least it was a factor. And then came the atheists in full force and even they are learning about soft power too just as believers do. I think mothers knew all along but fathers wanted to run the show because they were the warriors most of the time. War is passe and so is the rule of men, The rule of women is here and their power is humanity.

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Mr Walker
40 minutes ago, I hide behind words said:

lOVE THIS!!!!

Thank you for posting. And so much truth in it too. One word for boss in Spanish is patron. Which comes from the word father. Unsure why patron in English came about but I will find out.

We are the angels and It has been managing us for so long, when will we pick up the slack?

The multiverse and the variations of it is boggling. But we will bring about the perfect one. When we get more power on the other otherr side most likely, we will be able to run the simulation of all of Creation we know again and again. And the perfect version is always being brought about even now by the editors of the Akashic Records which is you too.

Getting to God with rules and regs or quantum all falls short eh?

The real God is not the one we have constructed a real Boss is about and she wants to promote you too.

And anyone attempting to learn all the mysteries. which can't be solved but pondered only, and can't be learned all, but try and go insane or die. None can stand in the Presence of God without cleansing. Thing is we got the process of it but few use it fully. Forgiveness is a gift no work required. One of the perks of being a low level laborer in the fields.

My name is Saturntosun and I will tell you all more later about life in the second world, where we go when we "die" but truly it is life part 2. Third heaven or bust!!! Together we will get there save the many who have been taken by the boss person directly.

The latin for father is pater and patronus is a latin derivative meaning protector of clients, or defender.   Hence english words like paternal  and patron 

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Clarakore
4 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

It seems to me fairly obvious that a God who proves himself is not God but some sort of fraud or maybe very a dvanced technology.  Were Jesus to appear one morning in the clouds surrounded by the choir of angels, I would probably go along with it all for safety's sake, but not believe a bit of it.  I might not be able to explain how the trick was pulled off, but I would know it was a trick.

Any real God knows that nothing he could do might not be duplicated with technology, so he doesn't engage in such things.  It would, shall we say, be "below" his dignity.

There have in history been efforts to "prove" the existence of God using logic.  The problem is logic is always subject to flaws and errors, so for something so absolute, no such proof would be sufficient.  (The proffered proofs haven't been very good anyway).

Asking for proof, then, is too much.  But of course that also means we can't believe -- we can only form a reasonable opinion of the chances that he is ""here" or he is not, based on evidences.  The evidence is overwhelming (from the nature of existence, the existence of suffering, the fact that existing religions are so stupid, and others) that there is no such thing, so I don't believe, and call myself an atheist.  It's on the same order of magnitude that I have the opinion that the earth an oblate spheroid -- the evidence is extremely convincing but the opinion remains no more than my opinion.

I agree but don't forget God is always proving too, we just don't accept the miracles and want more proof. Believers themselves I am discussing. Even the apostles were chastised by Jesus according to the myth of Christianity. It was also a woman who first recognized and believed in the resurrection and knew it was Him. If Jesus could have chose women to be disciples He would have and also been born a She.

But amends were made for the culture then. And Paul was right, women don't speak in church, the real church is the home and they pull strings one way or another and keep it going when some men still think they are top dogs but their power is one of brute strength and not true power that does not become exhausted but grows and grows.

Jesus refused to join a church and one of His last acts was to go into the sanctuary and tell the priests that tax collectors and prostitutes will go to heaven before them. The veil was rent as a sign we have direct access to God and need no church who forgot their function of taking care of widows and orphans and are businesses still. Pigeons still are being sold metaphorically. Because you have to buy their crap, they got much good, but the crap is for sell, and we must buy to support their organizational approach, luckily we moved beyong the scheme of having to buy what is neeed to be sacrificed to atone for our sins, but the scheme now is a variant.

The real church is the home and the head has always been the woman.

Science shows a child fares better with a mother and grandmother if no father is around, than a father and mother alone. But what do good Christians do now? Send granny to the nursing home. We might be able to do without old fashioned values but a single mom cannot run it alone so her mom backs her up. Cause men are to busy divorcing now days. And those who pretend their marriage is OK when the woman suffers and the man exercises power is not the best environment now days. What does that say? Christians fail with the current approach but will catch up.

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Mr Walker
24 minutes ago, I hide behind words said:

Yesterdays reading from Upmost for His Highest agrees with Sheri. It said it is about you more than others until you fully have received a few more lessons. As a believer it is the system we should follow as others have their own. The verse discussed was Mark 9:9.John 6:2 was mentioned. Saint Augustine told us that the best form of being a witness is best done without even mentioning God.

Up to you to decide if you have already took part of the resurrection, died and come back to life? Few do here and continue the work after death or so we call it death but like the OT said not even the dead hear but NT tells us a time will come when even the dead will hear. Are you listening to God? Or just hearing Him? Does He tell you to defend Him? Or does He help you in other ways. Share bro, what does he say? If only it might help others if not I respect it.

My mom has a a drawing of an angel with her finger on her mouth. I got the lesson finally, shh. I share it with you. I still have not fully let it sink in. I fall short of Mark 9 and John 6.

And Sheri, she does the work of the kingdom in her own way and in many cases better than Christians. She might not agree but she would agree likely that she cares for you cause I doubt she would waste time talking to you so much if not. She respects the relationship you two have but you don't and it is OK. But any advice you give to one when not in a relationship will fail. Thus in the end you will keep your beliefs but realize she was right all along about so many things,

Speaking from experience here as a one time Christian. She is not narcissistic either because there is no pride in her deep convictions and she truly wants to help all or as many as possible. But she will do so with the same fierce determination without the hate that Christian men use. We are narcissistic Walker me and you. Sheri is your sister or maybe mother. Your friend. God sent her to us to change some things so we can better serve all and even get closer to God. God does use others outside of the narrow spectrum of Abrahamic faiths to do His work. His work is to believe. Believe in the best. The Bible was never meant to be law because true law is written on our heart. Romans 2:15 is me and you, gentiles, we don't follow Judaic law as some still do and they will be judged but it, we will be judged by our own conscience.

The Bible is written in your heart I have read a few scriptures but Sheri has a whole book that is part of the Bible I see in this world. I am not white knighting her cause she needs no defense. I am telling you be ready one day your heart of stone will melt. It will be struck with a staff and water will pour the living waters. Sheri is one of the staff holders. But she doesn't claim it for her like Moses did. One day you will be a staff holder. My staff work is for family really so don't think I will join the debates here between you two but it is fun to watch except for the pain it causes you or pain you wish to cause others, can't explain but I see it.

Back to the conversation between me and you now.

Sorry but i have sheri on ignore so in general I dont see her posts   i respect your connection to god but a s i said it will not and cannot correspond with my own.     I respectfully disagree with your character assessment of sheri.

Again she may treat you very differently  to how she treats me. I no longer believe any of her comments are sincere but even if they were she is so mistaken in her perceptions of me that her solutions for me  simply are not relevant. 

Like sheri, you seem quite ready to make judgements about a person you know nothing about, except for what is written here.  In a nicer way you are speaking what you believe, from your heart. But this is not necessarily correct in respects to me and my own relationship with god  This is one of the reasons i avoid organised religion. Everyone is an expert and they all want you to respond to god or the bible as they do.  All a human being needs is a connection to god itself. Books priests and other church people might be sources of comparison but it is the individual relationship between a human and god which is important.

 

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Clarakore
10 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

The latin for father is pater and patronus is a latin derivative meaning protector of clients, or defender.   Hence english words like paternal  and patron 

Thanks and yes patron can mean that in English I forgot. So where does patron come from, as a patron of a store. A customer. That is what I was thinking of instead of like a patron of the arts who supports it as is a boss.

I also like the modern definition of matronage.

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Mr Walker
13 minutes ago, I hide behind words said:

Thanks and yes patron can mean that in English I forgot. So where does patron come from, as a patron of a store. A customer. That is what I was thinking of instead of like a patron of the arts who supports it as is a boss.

I also like the modern definition of matronage.

The latin word patronus had quite few slightly different, but related meanings, and thus can apply to one who supports an artist or an organisation  literally a defender of, or one who advances the cause of, an individual or organisation Thus every client of a store is, in a small way, a patron of that store, because they are supporting it. (more common in the old days when customers were loyal and stuck to a particular store, and most definitions only allow patron for a regular customer, rather than any one who buys from a shop.  )  Patron also became a term of respect for customers and some stores prefered it to customer because it had a higher- class  association.

Not surprisingly, in male dominated societies, matronage did not take off in quite the same way, but one definition for matronage has always been  supervision  or care by a matron, which is very similar to the meaning of  patronage. 

Edited by Mr Walker
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GlitterRose
5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Well then you believe that  most humans are idiots. About 90 % of modern humans still believe in a higher power  Given such a power is clearly not human, it is alien. You have just labelled 90% of humans as idiots.  God is just a name e attach to certin entities Like magic is a name we attach to technologies beyond our understanding. 

I am changing the world

I bet i have done far more than you ever will to change it for the better. if not for gods existence hundreds of children would have died from  starvation whom we have fed   thousands of villagers would have died from unsafe water and lack of sanitation.  Several young people would have never got an education in asia and africa, and a dozen young abandoned and homeless local people would not have been loved, cared for and given back their future.

  A dozen women would not have had seed funding to start businesses to make them independent and to provide for themselves and their families  Many animals would not have been saved or helped by our work and funding with several animal welfare groups.  By revealing himself to me, god has made a difference not only in my life but in the lives of thousands of others.  This could also have been accomplished if i simply believed , but i am incapable of belief and so god had to reveal  himself to me to change my life and to have me and my wife help all those people.

Your attitude is natural and understandable, but based on your own lack of exerince with this alien entity and its powers.   

Argumentum ad populum. 

I bet i have done far more than you ever will to change it for the better.

And that one smacks of humongous ego.

There are plenty of organizations out there who do things just to help people, and not because they want to convert them. However wondrous your intentions, you have ulterior motives...and you obviously want bragging rights, after the fact.

Edited by ChaosRose
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Frank Merton
37 minutes ago, I hide behind words said:

I agree but don't forget God is always proving too, we just don't accept the miracles and want more proof. Believers themselves I am discussing. Even the apostles were chastised by Jesus according to the myth of Christianity. It was also a woman who first recognized and believed in the resurrection and knew it was Him. If Jesus could have chose women to be disciples He would have and also been born a She.

 

Just how is God "always proving" -- indeed, what does that even mean?  You agree miracles achieve nothing, but what more proof could there be?

I have difficulty figuring out where you are -- although that is not really important -- except I need more clarity if you are to be persuasive.

The business of Jesus' sex is not terribly important -- I understand that men are prejudiced and so would have difficulty following a female messiah -- so maybe God compromises to mitigate the prejudices of human beings.  (Actually, thinking about it, that statement is really seriously problematic -- the idea of God compromising because men are prejudiced).

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Clarakore
Just now, Mr Walker said:

Sorry but i have sheri on ignore so in general I dont see her posts   i respect your connection to god but a s i said it will not and cannot correspond with my own.     I respectfully disagree with your character assessment of sheri.

Again she may treat you very differently  to how she treats me. I no longer believe any of her comments are sincere but even if they were she is so mistaken in her perceptions of me that her solutions for me  simply are not relevant. 

Like sheri, you seem quite ready to make judgements about a person you know nothing about, except for what is written here.  In a nicer way you are speaking what you believe, from your heart. But this is not necessarily correct in respects to me and my own relationship with god  This is one of the reasons i avoid organised religion. Everyone is an expert and they all want you to respond to god or the bible as they do.  All a human being needs is a connection to god itself. Books priests and other church people might be sources of comparison but it is the individual relationship between a human and god which is important.

 

She treated me like you because I used to treat her like you do now. I realized she was not in error I was. You will see this one day. Soon as within a few years or less.

You avoid organized religion but carry their same prejudices but since you do you will also change before they do as I once did. And still am changing. And when you make it to heaven without realizing this here the joke will be when Sheri invites you to sit at her table and then she in turn will sit at your wife's and together at your mother's.

I am not judging you but convicting you without criticism based on the Bible. I see we both at one time or another did place ourselves and our belief in the Bible and God as deserving of the best seat. Jesus said better to sit in the back and be invited up front. But sorry mate the best seat in this feast is for Sheri, I too made that mistake lol and I won't convince you or convict you in reality, the Spirit will convict you as it did me.

And don't forget Paul said some say they are disciples of Jesus, or John the Baptist, or even him but let that go. He didn't know the argument was bigger because some said they were also disciples of Mithra, or Greek philosophy.

But he got it right by saying death has been defeated by Christ. Because back then all gods of Greek origin had temples except Hades cause none could defeat death. Jesus did defeat Hades without destroying any temples as none of Hades were to be found anyways but many for the first time had hope of a new life and death was not the end.

Last item here is all shall bow down before God, all, all is demons too, and non belivers as some consider them when their beliefs are just fine as is for now as much as ours, and we won't bow for beheadings but for blessings. All are going to heaven and somewhere that kernel of truth is hidden in the Bible but the authors didn't realize it. A time will come when even the dead will hear says one scripture. That means everyone who is spiritually dead. And do you really think all the Native Americans who died before Columbus will go to hell cause they had no Bible? No hell is what many are in now, their judgment was decided they are not spiritually renewed fully, the work is not complete until Jesus returns and the Return happens in piecemeal fashion and many other people from the past outside of Christianity have already made the goal and wait for us and help. If you don't do things now to make a better world for your descendants I would not believe it, and thus our ancestors did too.

Joel tells of a time that the Spirit will be poured on all flesh, all flesh. That means our carnal nature too as well as pagans, atheists, new agers, eastern religions, african and other folk systems, plus the average joe who can;t be bothers with any of that stuff and does the work in their own fashion including paying bills or holding on to sanity.

Unless you are the exception on this forum now and have already become part of the Bride of Christ but since you are married to your lovely wife I think that itself proves the other ceremony has not taken place.

You won't be a male or female either but become One with God as marriage symbolizes and will be perfected for its weaknesses and temporary status of our existence, when we also become One with our lovely partners if ever so lucky to marry once or more.

And you also should join a few of us non affiliated believers in having our own pop up churches here and there. PM if ever interested in praying together about something. When two or more are gathered He is there we cannot do it alone. If you pray with your wife already then lucky you but there still might be times you need to pray with someone else and I will be there always Master Walker. Cause sometimes men have to pray together just as women have to separated from their partners in life. But I am not down with bashing non believers knowing I am right cause I know that is wrong. I never bash you and sorry if it feels so but I discuss the Bible with you and hold you up to the standards I see in it. Edification brother. I would rather use my time discussing Bible with believers than non, as it makes more sense when considering the energy spent and how effective it will be,

We are commanded to leave the home of those who don't believe when we come as missionaries to convert and even do your shoes so not even the dust remains. That really is so we don;t ruin their homes with our crap that we need to convert the world with some system or church or religion and we are not allowed to take any of their blessings with us so that is the dust part.

And most Christians sadly still think it means something else that makes us good and them bad. No it is a rule to not spoil their good with our bad.

A real witness when having to actually enter conflict with non believers will always be on the side of the persecuted and crucified and they will do it with joy, Joy a gift of the Spirit, All the gifts will be given to you too but brother you are sounding a bit clangy now even though Angels speak to you in their tongue after translating in plain speech, I guess, unless they speak to you differently>>>>>

And when you go at believers you also do so out of the flesh and do not let Spirit speak for you and put words in your mouth. So remember when going to their feasts it is OK to eat as they do or some such if you are OK with it but if not still enjoy it and abstain from what you don't like, abstain not reject as wrong, and when it is your feast don't toss things in weaker ones cannot handle but make them stumble, that means God is right you are wrong spiels, cause God is not ours to claim as our and ours only, we are to be claimed. And God claims you always and will run to you when you finally come back home, will meet you before you get there with ring and coat signifying inheritance is yours even if you wasted it. And if that isn't you then oh my, being the brother who did it all right and says wait a minute they left and spent their inheritance and can't join again now and be part of salvation. And yes most of us are the brother and that was the real lesson of the prodigal son, the loyal son who followed every law but failed in honoring the father in the end when the other brother honored and was honored.

Don't be the worker from the first hour saying you deserve more than the last hour ones. God pays us all the same in the end and all will do the work in their own way and time. And the real shocker is to learn you were the last hour workers and atheists and pagans and old ladys with two mites did all the work before you. But hey beat your chest and show us all how you are so special because you make God special. In the end your wealth will be boiled down to one shekel buried and it will be taken away. The two mites turned into many more and were invested wisely and still became many more.

These are the women who must remain silent in the brick and mortar churches and those who carry their Pauline prejudices into their own homes.

Paul did not say nothing about women not speaking in their home. But hey we are right we are men and God chose us is what we think. But will be last to recognize Jesus and maybe even doubt until we demand proof and get it.

You got your proof of sorts I know you did but you don't see Jesus yet and recognize Him fully. Your doubt is plain as you try to convince others of the reality. If you had no doubt there would be no need to convince others and you would just do it and be it without having to argue about it in this way with non believers even if some of us are believers.

Will you sit on the right or the left of God in heaven? Which brother are you who debated that their mom had to ask Jesus which one would be the one to sit next to God,

My apostle archetype is Judas but I also have characteristics of John the Baptist cause I speak like a wild man crying in the woods and no good believers visit but only the lowest of the low. I wear odd clothes and live off honey and lost my head. And I am just here to say Jesus is coming be ready. And when He comes He will baptize with fire.

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Clarakore
44 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

The latin ka Wabiword patronus had quite few slightly different, but related meanings, and thus can apply to one who supports an artist or an organisation  literally a defender of, or one who advances the cause of, an individual or organisation Thus every client of a store is, in a small way, a patron of that store, because they are supporting it. (more common in the old days when customers were loyal and stuck to a particular store, and most definitions only allow patron for a regular customer, rather than any one who buys from a shop.  )  Patron also became a term of respect for customers and some stores prefered it to customer because it had a higher- class  association.

Not surprisingly, in male dominated societies, matronage did not take off in quite the same way, but one definition for matronage has always been  supervision  or care by a matron, which is very similar to the meaning of  patronage. 

This is my favorite definition.

2. A married woman, especially a dignified and sober-minded one of middle-age.

Though it fails on having to be married and needs updating but the flaw makes it beautiful aka Wabi-Sabi.

I also like Mexican Catholics, for them you never dishonor Virgin de Guadalupe, and you never talk bad about "jefita" which means female boss aka mother. But their machismo needs to be downgraded and their Marianismo better honored and for the power it has on it's own without having to be subservient any longer in society.

The lowest of the low now honor La Purissima Santa Muerte or Saint of Death. And if so you have to abandon all other saints and paths to God for she is a jealous one who will turn on you if you go back to the Virgin of Guadalupe and any other patron saints.

 

 

 

Edited by I hide behind words

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Hammerclaw

If there is a Creator, something that created the Universe, it would have to be greater than the Universe,  representing power and intellect and science on a scale so vast to be beyond our comprehension. Practically all human concepts of deity are quaintly anthropomorphic, from the pantheons of the ancient Greeks and Hindus to the Christ-eating cults of Christianity. Yes, ritual cannibalism is an integral part of Christianity, especially for Roman Catholics who believe in it literally not just symbolically, the hallmark of the primitive. To understand what we call God or Gods we remake them in our own image using the same primitive symbology my ancestors used back when they were herding swine in the forests of Britain. In the modern world, nursing a belief in a Creator requires a concept of being, vast, infinite, with power beyond conception and timeless existence, nothing at all like the minute specks of protoplasm  that humans are.

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Frank Merton

That the universe, through perfectly natural processes, created itself, is now not at all hard to picture, so the ultimate miracle cited for God's existence is no longer tenable.

I would never say such an entity could not exist, and on Mondays I have my doubts.

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Clarakore
1 hour ago, Frank Merton said:

Just how is God "always proving" -- indeed, what does that even mean?  You agree miracles achieve nothing, but what more proof could there be?

I have difficulty figuring out where you are -- although that is not really important -- except I need more clarity if you are to be persuasive.

The business of Jesus' sex is not terribly important -- I understand that men are prejudiced and so would have difficulty following a female messiah -- so maybe God compromises to mitigate the prejudices of human beings.  (Actually, thinking about it, that statement is really seriously problematic -- the idea of God compromising because men are prejudiced).

God comes down to our level like any good parent of a child.

Jesus said in heaven none will be male or female and maybe the spiritual act of creation purely outside of any entanglements with the physical act requires no gender.

Even on Earth life began with only females, parthenogenesis, and male was a mutation that was beneficial, half the work of creating progeny, more diversity, and we got two genders.

But females were first and thus are the elders of all males so the pecking order naturally goes to the first born. And while we needed competition we went overboard, but altruism gave us our greatest evolutionary leaps. And females have mastered it. Problem now is many females today show so much masculine energy they fight like dudes in pride and to destroy.

This is where males have a small chance to lead. To be the first to overcome the power the need to procreate had at times much bad for the good it does. The need to sow the field, we evolved to be so of course, when a woman goes through menopause the male no matter how old as a spouse will go through midlife crisis and look for another mate.

Sports car, male supplements, and other signals from wealth to peacock spreading of wings. Some are worse and always had the need to cheat.

Women have the same needs but can be more loyal if the male holds up his end and many fail and still they hold down the fort and take the brunt. That shows they are stronger and superior humans.

But we are good helpers and assistants and will also be the ones to push us past the fight or flight response because it affects us the most. Then we will be humanity without the prime directive of procreation (even reptiles have this) or the fight or flight (that too reptiles have but they usually strike so we have mammalized it) but these vestiges are not the ones we need to keep and should be shed. We need to rely more on critical thinking by rising above those two things.

Procreation is important but we should be sensible about it instead of running like chickens without heads, that means honesty, no need to hide it or brag about it as a male, and females cheat if need be but hide it better even from themselves if necessary, but there are other approaches of fulfilling the Oxytocin quota we need  to stop the dopamine train without the reward. It bonds humans and makes them caring.

Fight or flight is always an option but not the only one so again we control it not it us. It is also behind why people lie alot about important things. They flee and deny it or fight and guilt themse lves. Some even practice forms of asceticism without any plan or rewards such can offer. So much healing will happen when we become human 2.0.

Some believe in the singularity and tech and others in messiahs and a special day all will go to heaven, some in science and accept life is limited so they cherish it more but don't fully plan on being eternal cause the sun will die so will we. Colonizing the stars will not happen physically.

Aliens won't save us.

We are eternal because we are creators who can create ourselves. We will live always although science only recognizes extended life in limited form. Such as when you are last mentioned by someone in philosophy. Or when the neurons that make us persons in other people go out. So we die but live in them cause the pattern remains in the neurons. Why so many people claim can talk to the dead will be proven by science within the next 50-500 years.

But so much more awaits and learning never ends just leads to more questions to answer. Science itself is open-ended truly how religion should be. Religion lost that and has an end date.

True spirituality agrees we live in the NOW, the day of creation is here, the work of Jesus was done at the beginning of creation, and when we become less time oriented we will then move beyond that limitation.

Psychology is already coming out with techniques of changing the past by mediation or the way we think about memories. Many bad memories were good, but a few bad turns on the negative filter so new ones are also processed as bad even if they too were good. Another goal to pass to become human 3.0.

Your oil will end soon, your electricity will stop eventually, your data will be lost, but my theory purely pet of course, is one reason the Universe is expanding is because we are writing new data on it. It is a simulation we will one day exit and realize hey it was not reality, and a few now are finding the hidden controls to change tweak settings, and when humans can make the sky any colors they wish and the weather how they want, lol human 10.0 so I missed a few versions. Even evolution as the driving force of creation will slow and end when we take charge of the course it will take us. Then we are the masters and reach the end of the sim. A few are fortunate to have the system crash on em to understand this and wait for the good stuff to happen in more doses.

The best thing we can do now is just breathe, breathe, accept ourselves and thus others, and quit guilt tripping others and ourselves.

Continue the path from unreality into reality.

That is the main goal of science but the religious person can up their spirituality  and help bring it about with less work than science does by simply cooperating.

You kids, I am a brat and will leave soon, taking my toys and going home. But honestly I will leave the fun stuff here cause my toys were no fun after all.

Consider all this more a story, a narrative, my simple truth for me, I am open to all of your truths too and learn. But I won't play king of the hill when I know the best way to play hill is let jill lead and warn jack not to stumble, No crown will be lost and Jill won't tumble down after us on purpose so we won;t feel bad.

Even child nursery rhymes speak more truth than tomes of text that are mere records and need to be added onto to stay current while keeping the best of what they offered and remembering the worst to not repeat.

My job is folk historian with a bent on using it to heal and remind others the jig is up. And history is boring to most so I understand most of what I write will be repeated by others in better ways too and finally the story will be heeded. Many who claim spirituality should look at the fairytales of yore to not get eaten by wolves, not even recognize grandma is sick and needed help so we think the wolf is her, and not kill the witch by tossing her in the oven cause she was not going to eat them, silly kids. One day you will be grandma if lucky cause grandpas die first and don't exist in those stories. Kids are the dumbest of all. And we waste all our political and industrial capital, the bulk, on trying to fix humpty dumpty who is not an egg as most think and the original tale never claimed.

By the way Mr Merton thank you for helping my daughter spin straw into gold, I bluffed the king and put her in danger, and you taught her the secret of transmutation. AKA you are the closest in many ways to the end goal of being wise in spiritual matters. You are a brother of Confucius and Buddah but remain more secretive in your true knowledge and power. If we knew your true name we would try and destroy you my beloved Rumpelstiltskin.

Last two thoughts, Rapunzel got scissors and cut her hair, found a way to climb down on her own, stairs duh, they were hidden by facade but were left there when they were using them to construct, the frog is now a prince, and Turning Lead Into Gold happened already, if going by changing the molecules on an atomic level, look it up, now we can easily do it spiritually and you can tell me more later Frank. You the possessor of the philosophers stone and I have a hunch it is easy as see a stone, pick it up, put it back cause it belongs there, and enjoy the song it sings. I am probably way off but more onto you than you realize.

And my math is fine cause I can do 1+1=1 again and 2=5 if counting it as 2+3 when 2=1 and 3=1 thus 2=3=2. I did have two final thoughts. And general reader let it go it is gibberish now and not part of mathematics as we know but exists none the less.

Clue: husband and wife =1 so 1+1=1.

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