Trump weighing military options in Syria

[DarkHunter]

8 hours ago, Yamato said:

Yellow clouds caused by any number of things my ass.

Toxicity?   First responders with no masks, no gloves, no shoes, spraying naked babies down with a hose, with no followup.  And you believe every word you're told.   You're a card carrying member of the Sheeple, of that there is no doubt.

"If it was sarin."    "If Jesus walked on water how could he not be the son of God?"

I take you as someone with no knowledge about Chemistry but since you're still so unable to let go of your ball scratching contest, let me see your home library with your chemistry texts.   A photograph with a piece of paper that says "Yamato" will be sufficient for your evidence.  Good luck.

In smoke grenades to get any color you want, including yellow, a dye is used with the specific yellow dyes being Vat Yellow 4, Solvent Yellow 33, Solvent Yellow 16, Solvent Yellow 56, Oil Yellow R.  For another element that produce yellow besides chlorine there is sulfur.  Then there are the non chemical causes such as lighting and/or atmospheric conditions along with dust/debris color and camera quality/settings that can cause things to have a yellow color.  I'm sure if I spent more time researching I could find more chemical compounds then the dyes that produce yellow smoke/cloud but given your record it would be a waste of time but any of those would produce yellow smoke/clouds.

You either don't understand what I post on any level or you are purposefully ignoring it to protect your delusional world view.  You completely ignore the fact that for chlorine to of killed as many people in the latest chemical weapon attack, let alone all those who were wounded, that it would of had to of been a massive amount of chlorine.  I question if you even understand what toxicity means or understand just how large 435 to 600 liters is itself let alone understanding that those figures are a drastic understatement of the amount actually needed as it doesn't factor in the wounded or dispersion of the chlorine gas in the air all of which would exponentially increase the amount of chlorine gas needed.

And you further show just how delusional you actually are.  First just cause you refuse to admit that some of the first responders did in fact experience symptoms doesn't mean that it never happened, but with all the other evidence, you reject anything and everything that doesn't support what you want to so desperately believe.  Secondly if you would of done some research, had actual experience in chemistry, or even just learned anything at all from this thread then you would of known that you always spray down a suspected sarin use site and the victims with water since water breaks the phosphate bond in the sarin molecule and renders it inert.  Its not believing every world as its reported, its using logic, knowledge, and not doing everything possible to keep some twisted world view intact at any cost.

Once again it seems like more complete and utter nonsense keeps creeping into your post, I assume it was some vague, and rather poor, attempt at an insult.  Honestly if that is the best insults you can come up with its better not to even bother with them.

You really stick to it, even when embarrassed and largely proven that you have no experience you continue on, you must be terrible at gambling as even when your bluff is called you still continue on with it.  You must be getting really desperate about this chemistry experience, that you initially brought up, to try a last ditch attempt of requesting a picture.  I'm assuming you are hoping that I did what most college students do at the end of the semester and sell my books, the whole good luck thing heavily suggest that you are planning on me not being able to follow through, but unlike most college students I decided to keep all of my text books.  I rather like keeping books and after buying them for normally a few hundred each, selling them back for only about twenty dollars each if that just didn't seem right.  Instead of using your user name I used my own cause honestly I don't trust you at all, I tend not to trust the delusional, and I rather not run the risk of you trying to use this picture at some later time trying to prove you actually have chemistry experience when you don't.

Still waiting for you to say your chemistry experience which I am completely sure of is essentially zero, the only thing I am not sure of is if you took the worthless general education chem class in college, if you took a worthless chem class in high school, or if you even took chemistry at all.

[Yamato]

24 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Do you really respect Merc for his juvenile attitude, Astra?  It is a pity he's got like this; I too respect his experience as an aviator, being catapulted off a carrier in an F-14 is not something that an ordinary person could do, it's just a shame that he seems to have adopted this head-in-the-sand attitude of "I don't listen to those idiots [anyone who doesn't accept my natural; superior knowledge of any situation involving the Middle East automatically] except to slap them around a bit from time to time". And my point about being in possession if mission-critical information was just that; you'd have information essential to the mission, but that wouldn't necessarily mean that you'd automatically be in possession of Lawrence of Arabia-like knowledge of the Arab mind, and besides, there isn't just a homogenous "Middle Eastern mindset"; it's a whole lot of very different and often conflicting mindsets, as should surely be obvious from what we've seen everywhere from Libya to Afghanistan. 

Oh he's an F-14 pilot too then?   Making note.   That's a two-seater aircraft...was he in the front or the back?   Anyone know?

Oh and in the meantime I'm an Apollo Astronaut.   Why the hell not.

Based in part on what you're accurately explaining here, do you honestly think that Merc14 has the demeanor to be a fighter pilot?  Come now Manfred, be reasonable.  If one of the teletubbies on deck was a Democrat he'd have an aneurysm before he climbed into his seat. 

[Space Commander Travis]

2 minutes ago, Yamato said:

Oh he's an F-14 pilot too then?   Making note.   That's a two-seater aircraft...was he in the front or the back?   Anyone know?

Oh and in the meantime I'm an Apollo Astronaut.   Why the hell not.

Based in part on what you're accurately explaining here, do you honestly think that Merc14 has the demeanor to be a fighter pilot?  Come now Manfred, be reasonable.  If one of the teletubbies on deck was a Democrat he'd have an aneurysm before he climbed into his seat. 

I think he has said he was an RIO (back-seater). 

[Yamato]

1 minute ago, DarkHunter said:

In smoke grenades to get any color you want, including yellow, a dye is used with the specific yellow dyes being Vat Yellow 4, Solvent Yellow 33, Solvent Yellow 16, Solvent Yellow 56, Oil Yellow R.  For another element that produce yellow besides chlorine there is sulfur.  Then there are the non chemical causes such as lighting and/or atmospheric conditions along with dust/debris color and camera quality/settings that can cause things to have a yellow color.  I'm sure if I spent more time researching I could find more chemical compounds then the dyes that produce yellow smoke/cloud but given your record it would be a waste of time but any of those would produce yellow smoke/clouds.

You either don't understand what I post on any level or you are purposefully ignoring it to protect your delusional world view.  You completely ignore the fact that for chlorine to of killed as many people in the latest chemical weapon attack, let alone all those who were wounded, that it would of had to of been a massive amount of chlorine.  I question if you even understand what toxicity means or understand just how large 435 to 600 liters is itself let alone understanding that those figures are a drastic understatement of the amount actually needed as it doesn't factor in the wounded or dispersion of the chlorine gas in the air all of which would exponentially increase the amount of chlorine gas needed.

And you further show just how delusional you actually are.  First just cause you refuse to admit that some of the first responders did in fact experience symptoms doesn't mean that it never happened, but with all the other evidence, you reject anything and everything that doesn't support what you want to so desperately believe.  Secondly if you would of done some research, had actual experience in chemistry, or even just learned anything at all from this thread then you would of known that you always spray down a suspected sarin use site and the victims with water since water breaks the phosphate bond in the sarin molecule and renders it inert.  Its not believing every world as its reported, its using logic, knowledge, and not doing everything possible to keep some twisted world view intact at any cost.

Once again it seems like more complete and utter nonsense keeps creeping into your post, I assume it was some vague, and rather poor, attempt at an insult.  Honestly if that is the best insults you can come up with its better not to even bother with them.

You really stick to it, even when embarrassed and largely proven that you have no experience you continue on, you must be terrible at gambling as even when your bluff is called you still continue on with it.  You must be getting really desperate about this chemistry experience, that you initially brought up, to try a last ditch attempt of requesting a picture.  I'm assuming you are hoping that I did what most college students do at the end of the semester and sell my books, the whole good luck thing heavily suggest that you are planning on me not being able to follow through, but unlike most college students I decided to keep all of my text books.  I rather like keeping books and after buying them for normally a few hundred each, selling them back for only about twenty dollars each if that just didn't seem right.  Instead of using your user name I used my own cause honestly I don't trust you at all, I tend not to trust the delusional, and I rather not run the risk of you trying to use this picture at some later time trying to prove you actually have chemistry experience when you don't.

Still waiting for you to say your chemistry experience which I am completely sure of is essentially zero, the only thing I am not sure of is if you took the worthless general education chem class in college, if you took a worthless chem class in high school, or if you even took chemistry at all.

If I took chemistry in college would it make a difference?  To what?   What knowledge would I have that I'm missing that would be applicable to what post number?

Noting that you won't let go of the D measuring contest probably would feel like an insult to you I suppose.  

I'm not refusing to admit that first responders experienced symptoms, I just don't know their names, their symptoms, their fates, or what in the world they think that arriving with zero safety equipment and spraying babies on tables with hoses was supposed to accomplish.   "Duck and cover" becomes more reasonable than ever.

How do you deduce how much chlorine is necessary to do what?   I'm not concluding that everyone or even anyone was killed by chlorine.  But do explain how 435 to 600L of chlorine, or whatever massive amount is needed to produce this story with.

If you want to add yellow smoke grenades or yellow dye to the bombs that were dropped, if we're free to speculate then what the hell we're free to speculate that too.   But that doesn't produce the symptoms that you're relying upon for your sarin-by-Assad religious belief either.  And none of this religion you're so keen on asserting is in your principles/general/organic chemistry textbook either. 

But I'll accept your photo as legitimate so at least there's that. 

 

[Yamato]

13 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

I think he has said he was an RIO (back-seater). 

So he's an officer too then. 

[Yamato]

Quote

water breaks the phosphate bond in the sarin molecule and renders it inert.

That's one hell of a podunk molecule then!

Source, please.

[Merc14]

16 hours ago, Yamato said:

I don't understand this "natural inclination" either.   You can keep repeating it, but it still needs explanation. 

He just fantasized that he he was in the E "Med" in "the mid-80s" flying off the USS Eisenhower ostensibly on certain missions.  Please explain how that translates to therefore having knowledge about the people and the governments nearby.  

 Why would I fantasize that yammie and what would it matter to you?    In fact, during that cruise we worked with the IAF and the French  and visited both countries for port calls. I did three cruises on that ship, in the Med and Arabian Gulf and flew over Iraq on many occasions.  I know far more about the region and their armed forces than you and ANYONE who has been over there with the military knows right away that you haven't a clue what you are talking about.  When you fly in that area you are briefed on the people that are hostile towards the US and the ship itself and that is how I know about those things.  Now go back into you corner and mumble to yourself you wacko, know nothing because I truly hate having to converse with you.  It's liek talking to a mental patient on the wrong medication.  

[Phaeton80]

 

Body language analysis Al Assad

 

And one of the 'Syrian gas survivor', demanding the US to step in.

 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Phaeton80

[+DieChecker]

22 hours ago, Yamato said:

Toxicity?   First responders with no masks, no gloves, no shoes, spraying naked babies down with a hose, with no followup.  And you believe every word you're told.   You're a card carrying member of the Sheeple, of that there is no doubt.

Sarin has a half life measured in hours or less. Within 24 hours in an environment similar to Syria, it should have been almost completely inactive.

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/emergencypreparedness/guides/nerve.html

[+and-then]

18 hours ago, Captain Risky said:

Like Manfred rightly pointed out, the base was up and running within hours

Roughly 60 K lbs of high explosives, placed with a couple of meters accuracy on targets over a hundred miles away is impressive by the standards of most world militaries.  As to being ineffective, the decision not to use a million dollar piece of ordnance to create a hole in a runway that a bulldozer could fill in an hour seems well thought out to me.  The "base" was rendered useless except as an emergency landing field.  If you have no fuel tank farm or power or radars, you have nothing but a landing strip.  Did you notice that those "old" Sukois were destroyed inside their blast shelters?  Think about the precision timing of the detonation as well as the placement of the projectile that would place the blast energy inside such a structure, and remember that the device just traveled over a hundred miles, undetected.  Nah, nothing impressive to see there  .  The US Navy destroyed what they were told to destroy and nothing else.  If I was on the ground being subjected to such fire from the US or Russia and had a choice, I'd be a US Navy fan!

[Unusual Tournament]

30 minutes ago, and then said:

Roughly 60 K lbs of high explosives, placed with a couple of meters accuracy on targets over a hundred miles away is impressive by the standards of most world militaries.  As to being ineffective, the decision not to use a million dollar piece of ordnance to create a hole in a runway that a bulldozer could fill in an hour seems well thought out to me.  The "base" was rendered useless except as an emergency landing field.  If you have no fuel tank farm or power or radars, you have nothing but a landing strip.  Did you notice that those "old" Sukois were destroyed inside their blast shelters?  Think about the precision timing of the detonation as well as the placement of the projectile that would place the blast energy inside such a structure, and remember that the device just traveled over a hundred miles, undetected.  Nah, nothing impressive to see there  .  The US Navy destroyed what they were told to destroy and nothing else.  If I was on the ground being subjected to such fire from the US or Russia and had a choice, I'd be a US Navy fan!

...and in what way does your argument take anything away from mine? I never said that the strike was a failure or that it was ineffective. The opposite is true. Trump ordered the military to send a message that the U.S. will not be a witness any longer. In no way did it hamper the war effort of Assad. It was a one off strike. That's it. It destroyed 4 fighters and damaged the airbase. The airbase was flying sorties in and out hours latter. 

Have no illusions, and then. If Trump wanted that and every other airbase and Assad military units dead then the strike would have resembled GW1/2 and not bruising Assads ego cause that's all the air strike did in my opinion. 

[+and-then]

25 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

...and in what way does your argument take anything away from mine? I never said that the strike was a failure or that it was ineffective. The opposite is true. Trump ordered the military to send a message that the U.S. will not be a witness any longer. In no way did it hamper the war effort of Assad. It was a one off strike. That's it. It destroyed 4 fighters and damaged the airbase. The airbase was flying sorties in and out hours latter. 

Have no illusions, and then. If Trump wanted that and every other airbase and Assad military units dead then the strike would have resembled GW1/2 and not bruising Assads ego cause that's all the air strike did in my opinion. 

 

I was pointing out the fact that 20+ aircraft were destroyed and that it was NOT an operational base the day after unless you define operational as nothing more than a place to land aircraft.  They could not be independently fueled or armed, let alone guided or managed from that base.

Additionally, it may have led to far more serious consequences since Russia and its allies are talking about creating their own version of "no-fly" zones in the north. " De-escalation areas"  http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/05/06/us-dismisses-russia-s-ban-on-military-aircraft-over-syria-safe-zones.html

Basically, Iran and Russia are calling northern Syrian areas a no-fly zone for the US.  Care to guess how that's going to work out?

[Unusual Tournament]

58 minutes ago, and then said:

I was pointing out the fact that 20+ aircraft were destroyed and that it was NOT an operational base the day after unless you define operational as nothing more than a place to land aircraft.  They could not be independently fueled or armed, let alone guided or managed from that base.

Additionally, it may have led to far more serious consequences since Russia and its allies are talking about creating their own version of "no-fly" zones in the north. " De-escalation areas"  http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/05/06/us-dismisses-russia-s-ban-on-military-aircraft-over-syria-safe-zones.html

Basically, Iran and Russia are calling northern Syrian areas a no-fly zone for the US.  Care to guess how that's going to work out?

Your link says nothing about how many planes were destroyed. In fact the Russians claimed that of the 59 missiles fired only 23 found their way to the airbase. Assuming that the Russians are telling the truth and there is no reason not to think so since the U.S. has not disputed the claims I don't see how 20 aircraft could be destroyed in the hangers and have enough missiles to destroy the runways, radars and fuel depots.

As for the no fly zone, the U.S. has made it perfectly clear they want the war to end. The no fly zones are supposed to allow the people to stay without being bombed by Turkey, Russia and the tiny Syrian airforce. It's a compromise that advantages the U.S. more than anyone else since the U.S. Is friends with all non government forces with the exception of ISIS. I don't think that the U.S. will do anything to break the no fly zone and if they do I believe it will be with the consent of Russia. But even if they wanted to who would stop them? No one.  

As for whether the no fly zones will work out or not it's hard to say. If they don't it won't be because of the Russians (who have got what they want) nor Assad who will be in power. Nor Iran who have acted with immunity from U.S. strikes to date... but rather NATO ally, Turkey. Which it seems is on a collision course with U.S. interests. 

So if the No Fly zone collapses then all hell will break loose and the U.S. won't be bombing anyone but the Turks. Or do you think they'll bomb the Russians and start WW3?

[Astra.]

23 hours ago, Yamato said:

Oh this story is a glaring case of guilty until proven innocent, a violation of international law and of the US Constitution.   That's not my belief, that is a fact. 

So go picket your protest sign on the front lawn of the WH Yam.

Quote

If you don't want to discuss, don't discuss!   That's what I do.  Works every time.

No idea what you're talking about.

Quote

Why would you want to keep repeating that Assad is guilty over and over again?

Because he is guilty. And I don't go over it and over it btw.

If anybody sounds more like a broken record...it's you.

Quote

If Merc did said he flew jets to the moon some people would believe that too (highly correlated with also believing everything they hear in the mainstream media), but even then, he wouldn't be more knowledgeable about lunar politics for it.

..

Edited May 8, 2017 by Astra.

[Yamato]

1 hour ago, Astra. said:

So go picket your protest sign on the front lawn of the WH Yam.

No idea what you're talking about.

Because he is guilty. And I don't go over it and over it btw.

If anybody sounds more like a broken record...it's you.

..

Uh huh well you can just keep repeating to yourself over and over that he's guilty but you have nothing but the parroted ad nauseum words of crooks to back it up.   France would be the one exception but when they're telling us that Hexamine means Assad did it, they discredited themselves.  That's not "analysis" that's deceit.

If you keep repeating the accusation over and over, I'm going to sound like a broken record then while calling you out for it, get used to it.

I find the gullibility of some of you folks to be fascinating at this late hour.   How long can you folks get fooled?   Forever?   I was playing The Who 13+ years ago as far as these fake terrorist stories from the Middle East go.   A "terrorist" is someone who gets in the way of our greasy geopolitical ambitions, that's all it takes to get shoehorned into the false narrative.

Like we say over here "Here's your sign":

 

[Yamato]

6 hours ago, and then said:

I was pointing out the fact that 20+ aircraft were destroyed and that it was NOT an operational base the day after unless you define operational as nothing more than a place to land aircraft.  They could not be independently fueled or armed, let alone guided or managed from that base.

"I was pointing out the fact that 20+ aircraft were destroyed..."  Can you point your laser to your reference for the fact?

Quote

Basically, Iran and Russia are calling northern Syrian areas a no-fly zone for the US.  Care to guess how that's going to work out?

Well you're the one arguing for the escalation, either you're happy with it or not.   I don't care to guess anything you're arguing for yet is going to work out.

[Space Commander Travis]

15 hours ago, Merc14 said:

  When you fly in that area you are briefed on the people that are hostile towards the US and the ship itself and that is how I know about those things.  Now go back into you corner and mumble to yourself you wacko, know nothing because I truly hate having to converse with you.  It's liek talking to a mental patient on the wrong medication.  

Well exactly then. (I know you won't bother replying to this, since you're totally preoccupied with this kind of feud you have with Yam (And I notice that Astra seems not to be replying to my points either; this is disappointing.)) "you are briefed on the people that are hostile towards the US and the ship itself". That's hardly going to be a full download of everything there is to do about all the nuances of the situation involving all the complexities of the various ethnic and religious groups, is it. It's going to be "They hate us". (And Israel, of course. Everyone hates them.)

Edited May 8, 2017 by Manfred von Dreidecker

[Yamato]

17 hours ago, Merc14 said:

 Why would I fantasize that yammie and what would it matter to you?    In fact, during that cruise we worked with the IAF and the French  and visited both countries for port calls. I did three cruises on that ship, in the Med and Arabian Gulf and flew over Iraq on many occasions.  I know far more about the region and their armed forces than you and ANYONE who has been over there with the military knows right away that you haven't a clue what you are talking about.  When you fly in that area you are briefed on the people that are hostile towards the US and the ship itself and that is how I know about those things.  Now go back into you corner and mumble to yourself you wacko, know nothing because I truly hate having to converse with you.  It's liek talking to a mental patient on the wrong medication.  

You're perhaps the hottest headed poster I've ever had the pleasure of having intercourse with.  Fighter pilots are generally some very cool customers, not easily flustered by pressures orders of magnitude worse than what I put on you here.

"You know far more..", sure you do Merc.  That's why you'd fantasize.   How does knowing about their hostility towards the US influence your opinions on Middle Eastern politics today?   You're inferring that people in that region are all of one mind, that they feel hostility to American military forces in the area.   Do you think that stating this obvious fact is something that I didn't already know and needed to hear?   What did I write that indicated on your backseat radar that I didn't already know that?  

The question you should ask yourself once in a while is WHAT WE SHOULD DO about that hostility.   Are they not hostile enough towards our aircraft carriers yet?   How much more hostile would you like "the people" to get?  

ETA:  Israel and France are two major contributors to our eternal problems in the Middle East.   "You wacko."      It's almost an effortless affair for me to turn you into a mouth frothing insult throwing mess.   Granted I'm not even trying to.  If I was trying to, you'd have a stroke.

Edited May 8, 2017 by Yamato

[Yamato]

10 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Sarin has a half life measured in hours or less. Within 24 hours in an environment similar to Syria, it should have been almost completely inactive.

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/emergencypreparedness/guides/nerve.html

Okay?

[Yamato]

1 hour ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Well exactly then. (I know you won't bother replying to this, since you're totally preoccupied with this kind of feud you have with Yam (And I notice that Astra seems not to be replying to my points either; this is disappointing.)) "you are briefed on the people that are hostile towards the US and the ship itself". That's hardly going to be a full download of everything there is to do about all the nuances of the situation involving all the complexities of the various ethnic and religious groups, is it. It's going to be "They hate us". (And Israel, of course. Everyone hates them.)

He's probably repeated 40 or 50 times how he ignores me.  So he's not a man of his word.  This makes claims he makes about himself that much more difficult to believe.  Not to mention the insults in every reply.

I'm getting tired of the low level discussion where some people think that getting personal is the way to go.   If members make it all about the person they're having a discussion with?   In the act of debating someone, what's lamer than that?   

[Phaeton80]

7 hours ago, Yamato said:

He's probably repeated 40 or 50 times how he ignores me.  So he's not a man of his word.  This makes claims he makes about himself that much more difficult to believe.  Not to mention the insults in every reply.

I'm getting tired of the low level discussion where some people think that getting personal is the way to go.   If members make it all about the person they're having a discussion with?   In the act of debating someone, what's lamer than that?   

 

Maybe it has something to do with:

Quote

You're perhaps the hottest headed poster I've ever had the pleasure of having intercourse with.

You really, really shouldnt have done that Yam, you know better than that. Might well find yourself in one of those self destructive infatuation / stalker cases. Best beware, protect ya neck kid!

[DarkHunter]

On 5/7/2017 at 3:40 AM, Yamato said:

If I took chemistry in college would it make a difference?  To what?   What knowledge would I have that I'm missing that would be applicable to what post number?

Noting that you won't let go of the D measuring contest probably would feel like an insult to you I suppose.  

I'm not refusing to admit that first responders experienced symptoms, I just don't know their names, their symptoms, their fates, or what in the world they think that arriving with zero safety equipment and spraying babies on tables with hoses was supposed to accomplish.   "Duck and cover" becomes more reasonable than ever.

How do you deduce how much chlorine is necessary to do what?   I'm not concluding that everyone or even anyone was killed by chlorine.  But do explain how 435 to 600L of chlorine, or whatever massive amount is needed to produce this story with.

If you want to add yellow smoke grenades or yellow dye to the bombs that were dropped, if we're free to speculate then what the hell we're free to speculate that too.   But that doesn't produce the symptoms that you're relying upon for your sarin-by-Assad religious belief either.  And none of this religion you're so keen on asserting is in your principles/general/organic chemistry textbook either. 

But I'll accept your photo as legitimate so at least there's that. 

 

Taking chemistry in college would make a difference.  First off you would have some idea how utterly insane some of the ideas that you been suggesting are along with understanding relatively simple chemical principles, examples being like the rebels being able to produce or store sarin, that chlorine is a suitable substitute in terms of people killed or wounded, that chlorine gas is the only thing that can produce yellow smoke, how/why water breaks the phosphate bond in sarin rendering it inert, and I'm sure if I went through the post I could find more examples of how your complete lack of understanding of chemistry would make a difference.  Secondly if you would of took chemistry in college you wouldn't need me to explain the conversions and assumptions used to get the volume of chlorine gas needed to kill 74 to 100 people, the conversions and making simple assumptions are covered by the 100 level chem classes that aren't general education classes.

You still won't admit that you have absolutely zero chemistry experience, now trying to paint this as me having some kind of character flaw even though you were the one who brought up experience initially and tried to pretend that you actually knew anything on the subject before I called you on your bluff.

Since I'm lazing im also going to cover your post calling sarin as you put it as a "podunk molecule".

From the OPCW https://www.opcw.org/about-chemical-weapons/types-of-chemical-agent/nerve-agents/ under physical and chemical properties.

"The most important chemical reactions of nerve agents take place directly at the phosphorus atom. The P-X bond is easily broken by nucleophilic reagents, such as water or hydroxyl ions (alkali). In aqueous solution at neutral pH the nerve agents decompose slowly, whereas the reaction is greatly accelerated following the addition of alkali. The result is a non-toxic phosphoric acid."

Since you probably don't know this a source of alkali is soap, basically water will break sarin down, soap and water will break sarin down a lot faster.  

As for how much chlorine it would take, that is a very simple calculation.  You start with how much chlorine gas it would take to kill a single person, 19,000 mg-min/m^3.  From there, since this is a drastic underestimate like I said, you make some assumptions.  The first assumption is that a cubic meter of volume that is holding the chlorine gas is somehow just around the victims head and no where else, with that assumption you are removing the cubic meter from the units leaving 19,000 mg-min.  The second assumption is that it will take one minute for the person to die which would leave it just as 19,000 mg of chlorine gas.  You could change the time it takes for the person to die but it has no effect on the total chlorine gas required to kill the person, for example if you wanted the person dead in 30 seconds you would double the chlorine gas and if you wanted the person dead in 2 minutes you would halve the chlorine gas but need to keep it at that concentration, as long as extremely long or short times aren't used the total amount of chlorine needed will stay the same.  From having 19,000 mg of chlorine gas its really easy to go from weight to volume.  Chlorine gas at STP has a density of 3.214 g/l so converting the mg to g gives 19 g of chlorine gas and to get volume you simply divide the 19 g by 3.214 g/l to get 5.91 l of chlorine gas.  That 5.91 l of chlorine gas is just to kill one person so to get the amount to kill 74 people would multiple 5.91 by 74 to get approximately 435 l (exactly its 437.5 l) or for 100 people approximately 600 l (exactly 591 l).

But like I said that is a very bad estimate as it drastically undercuts the amount of chlorine gas needed.  A better estimate would be to assume that the 74 or 100 people were standing in a area of 60 m by 60 m, or about half of a soccer field.  Once again assumptions will have to be made to keep the calculations simple cause if not then the calculations will get extremely complex very quickly and would need to go into pretty high level mass transfer and calculus to solve.  The first assumption will have to be that there is some barrier that keeps everyone in this 60 m by 60 m location, the second assumption that the chlorine gas will not have to any higher then 2 m to kill everyone, and lastly that the gas is uniformly distributed through out the location.  Even then this estimate is also going to drastically underestimate the amount of chlorine gas needed.  Given the toxicity of chlorine gas being 19,000 mg-min/m^3 its following most of the same steps as before.  Instead of assuming a 1 cubic meter of volume around the victims head it would be multiplying by the volume of this area since one of the assumptions is a uniform chlorine gas distribution.  Since the area of this assumption is 60 m by 60 m and another assumption is that the chlorine gas doesn't have to be higher then 2 m that gives a volume of 7,200 m^3.  Multiplying the 7,200 m^3 by the 19,000 mg-min/m^3 you would get 136,800,000 mg-min of chlorine gas and like before its best to just assume 1 minute leaving just 136,800,000 mg of chlorine in this area which when converted to volume would be approximately 42,564 l of chlorine gas.  There is a problem in this estimate, besides the barrier keeping the chlorine gas in one location instead of letting is spread freely, and its that chlorine gas has a density of 3.214 g/l while the density of air is 1.225 g/l, chlorine gas is 2.63 times as dense as air so an even distribution of chlorine gas won't happen and instead it will sink to the ground rather quickly.  A better estimate would be to assuming the first meter of height would be purely chlorine gas and that the 1 m to 2 m height has an equal distribution of chlorine gas, only to avoid having to deal with mass transfer and calculus.  With this new estimate the total volume of chlorine gas needed would instead be 3,621,282 l of chlorine gas.  Once you start factoring in the injured and the total area of the attack, which is definitely going to be bigger then 60 m by 60 m, the amount of chlorine gas needed just becomes massive.  There is a reason why in WW1 chlorine gas was only used for a very short period of time and its largely because to kill people with it over some area you will an absurd amount of it compared to other chemical weapons plus it is really easy to filter out chlorine gas by gas mask.

My initial estimate of 435 to 600 liters of chlorine gas, which was a drastic under estimate as I stated before, alone proves that chlorine couldn't of been used let alone the more realistic estimate of 3,621,282 liters of chlorine gas.  

The point is a lot of things can produce yellow smoke and its not that hard to attach said items to any weapon, while true that the stuff that produces yellow smoke would not cause the symptoms seen, sarin would produce those exact symptoms.

Finishing your post with complete nonsense and an attempted insult.  The symptoms of the victims were clearly viable and the symptoms of sarin exposure are well known, you don't really need a book to match the two.  Even then autopsies done showed the by products of sarin use but you continue to ignore or refuse that evidence along with all other evidence as you desperately cling to anything, no matter how utterly insane, to keep your delusional world view intact.

[Yamato]

LOL I just like making you type as much as possible, say I have absolutely zero chemistry experience and spew more insults.  

The majority of the body is water.  That doesn't render sarin harmless and spraying it with a hose after this amazing tale about Assad's Sarin you read about in your beginner's chemistry book isn't on the To-Do list on Sarin attacks because it's useless.   Since you also strongly believe you can neutralize a sarin attack with a garden hose, no wonder you're trying so hard to word over your shattered credibility. 

Your latest bumbledumb assertion your "chemical experience" taught you resulted in ignoring duration.   Let's entertain your nonsense further:   A baby inhaled sarin nerve gas and it's allegedly dying, convulsing on a table.   What to do in Darkhunter's World of Chemistry?   Leave the baby on the table and keep spraying water on her for how long then?   Until the water absorbs through her skin and travels all the way to her lungs where the poor precious child breathed in the gas?   You want to throw the baby into water, fill her lungs with water and drown her then leave her corpse underwater for how much longer than that?    How much longer when you don't drop the soap?

Like water sprayed on a body is going to chemically alter a sarin molecule that a victim breathed is ludicrous.   That you're even saying this stupid **** at all shows you really don't have helpful "chemistry knowledge".    This is one of the stupidest claims a poster on UM has pumped so far this year.     You've said a lot of dumb **** on this thread already, like how the sarin would have been exposed to 5500K temperatures and was thus rendered harmless for that reason too.   Do you even believe yourself?   Some people aren't stupid enough for you to fool with these forceful dreams of yours, DH.   You don't know nearly as much as you think you do, and people who do think they know it all?   Nobody knows less than the man who knows everything.

And now!   What every anti-Sarin First Aid Kit needs!   If you're a beloved rebel, be sure to stock up today!   

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Yamato

[RavenHawk]

On 5/7/2017 at 11:09 AM, Phaeton80 said:

 

Body language analysis Al Assad

 

And one of the 'Syrian gas survivor', demanding the US to step in.

 

And neither clip shows who’s lying.  The chem attack survivor would be saying the same thing in the same manner whether the attack happened or not.  For him it doesn’t matter what the truth is, he is just interested in getting his POV across.  With Assad, I now wonder if he is really in charge of the military?  It seems that he wasn’t forthright on everything.  It’s clear that it was deception but for what?  Hiding the fact that he used gas or that he doesn’t know the full story?  That wouldn’t be the first time, especially in the ME.

[DarkHunter]

4 hours ago, Yamato said:

LOL I just like making you type as much as possible, say I have absolutely zero chemistry experience and spew more insults.  

The majority of the body is water.  That doesn't render sarin harmless and spraying it with a hose after this amazing tale about Assad's Sarin you read about in your beginner's chemistry book isn't on the To-Do list on Sarin attacks because it's useless.   Since you also strongly believe you can neutralize a sarin attack with a garden hose, no wonder you're trying so hard to word over your shattered credibility. 

Your latest bumbledumb assertion your "chemical experience" taught you resulted in ignoring duration.   Let's entertain your nonsense further:   A baby inhaled sarin nerve gas and it's allegedly dying, convulsing on a table.   What to do in Darkhunter's World of Chemistry?   Leave the baby on the table and keep spraying water on her for how long then?   Until the water absorbs through her skin and travels all the way to her lungs where the poor precious child breathed in the gas?   You want to throw the baby into water, fill her lungs with water and drown her then leave her corpse underwater for how much longer than that?    How much longer when you don't drop the soap?

Like water sprayed on a body is going to chemically alter a sarin molecule that a victim breathed is ludicrous.   That you're even saying this stupid **** at all shows you really don't have helpful "chemistry knowledge".    This is one of the stupidest claims a poster on UM has pumped so far this year.     You've said a lot of dumb **** on this thread already, like how the sarin would have been exposed to 5500K temperatures and was thus rendered harmless for that reason too.   Do you even believe yourself?   Some people aren't stupid enough for you to fool with these forceful dreams of yours, DH.   You don't know nearly as much as you think you do, and people who do think they know it all?   Nobody knows less than the man who knows everything.

And now!   What every anti-Sarin First Aid Kit needs!   If you're a beloved rebel, be sure to stock up today!   

From everything you have said, and continue to say for that matter, and the fact that you do everything possible to avoid saying what, if any, chemistry experience that you have the only conclusion is that you have absolutely zero knowledge or understanding of chemistry at any level.  A lot of people don't have chemistry experience, there is nothing wrong with it inherently, but most people will accept and admit what they don't know instead of believing in some delusion.  A rational person by now would be trying to learn more by this point instead of desperately trying to defend a delusion.

You are the only person on here who can be shown a direct quote and link that says sarin breaks down in the presence of water and breaks down even faster if an alkali (soap) is included and continue to outright deny it, that is pure and utter insanity.  There can be no actual discussion with you till you are willing to let go of your delusions and accept scientific facts instead of denying them to keep your twisted world view intact.  

Way to use a straw man argument and attempted character assassination, judging by how you are starting to focus more on personal attacks and pure logical fallacies you must be getting desperate as your world view continues to fall apart around you.  Given that you know nothing of chemistry and outright refuse scientific facts that don't validate your world view its not surprising you resort to logical fallacies, but in your delusional mind they are probably solid and valid arguing points.  

First off once sarin has been absorbed of course spraying the person down with water won't help and I never said it would.  If you would of done any research, which you clearly haven't, or if you known any chemistry, which you also clearly don't know, then you would know that sarin is a liquid at STP, since you are clearly unfamiliar with chemistry that is Standard Temperature and Pressure, basically room temperature at sea level.  Sarin is a volatile liquid, but a liquid none the less.  The significance of sarin being a liquid at STP is that when it is deployed as a weapon it is sprayed as an aerosol and not as a gas, to put it in terms you will understand an aerosol are very fine, tiny, liquid droplets.  These tiny liquid droplets can be inhaled, absorbed through the skin, or be absorbed through mucous membranes.  While it is possible for a person to inhale enough sarin in its aerosol form to kill them outright a significant number also won't have inhaled enough but will either hit the fatal dose by the sarin absorbing through the skin/mucous membranes or by the sarin liquid turning into sarin gas by vaporization and being breathed in.  To give an idea of how fast sarin evaporates it is slightly faster then water, water has a vapor pressure about 10 times higher then sarin so initially it would appear that it would evaporate faster, as higher vapor pressures corresponds to faster evaporation rates, but cause there is generally water vapor present in the air already it slows down the evaporation rate of water but to explain more would have to get into vapor-liquid equilibrium.  Despite how much you want to refuse to accept it, any rational person by now, especially after the link I posted, would accept that water breaks down the sarin molecule to harmless compounds.  The point of washing a person down is to remove the sarin from their body and clothes before it has a chance to absorb or be turned into a gas.  The people who inhaled enough sarin to kill them out right would already be in the later stages of the sarin symptoms before first responders could even show up or already dead, spraying people down is to save those who were exposed to sarin before it can reach a fatal level in their body.

When the United States destroys chemical weapons, including nerve agents such as sarin, there are two main methods that are used and they are incineration and neutralization.  In incineration the United States burns the chemical weapon at 2,000 F (1,093 C or 1,366 K) all significantly less then the heat produced by a bomb blast.  In neutralization, which was used to destroy large quantities of mustard gas and VX quickly, it was just mixing the agent with hot water with or without sodium hydroxide.  

http://www.defencetalk.com/us-destroying-chemical-weapon-stockpiles-24069/

About halfway down the page they talk about the temperature the incinerators operate at, but if you don't believe that you are more then willing to do more research on your own, which I know you won't do.

For more mobile applications the US military uses the EDS (Explosive Destructive System) which uses a few pounds of explosives (1.9 lbs for the earlier model and 9 lbs for the later model) to destroy chemical weapons.

https://www.cma.army.mil/RCMD/Destruction/EDS/Pages/EDSHome.aspx

At least you are persistent, no matter how many times you are proven blatantly wrong and embarrassed you continue to desperately hold onto and defend your twisted and delusional world view at all cost.  Also like how when proven wrong about chlorine gas you just decide to drop it all together and focus on fallacies such a straw man and character assassination. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by DarkHunter
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