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imrunningthismonkeyfarm

Is North Korea really a problem?

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Dumbledore the Awesome
2 hours ago, DieChecker said:

It appears nothing big has happened so far. Could just be more hyperbole from the Liberal Media and more blowing of smoke from Kim.

I'm beginning to think that's what Team Trump's foreign policy is going to be about (like with Syria). Everything's a distraction to divert attention from the fact that there are no policies anywhere in the entire administration and his entire way of doing business is to play it by ear as he goes along and some compromise will be arrived at and he'll be able to claim all the credit. 

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DieChecker
13 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

I'm beginning to think that's what Team Trump's foreign policy is going to be about (like with Syria). Everything's a distraction to divert attention from the fact that there are no policies anywhere in the entire administration and his entire way of doing business is to play it by ear as he goes along and some compromise will be arrived at and he'll be able to claim all the credit. 

Perhaps. He's already got a more Conservative Supreme Court Justice installed, so that's like 50% of what many people already wanted. In the long run, a President that gets nothing done is really not so bad. It is those who throw a wrench into the works who's names live on in infamy.

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Dumbledore the Awesome
Just now, DieChecker said:

Perhaps. He's already got a more Conservative Supreme Court Justice installed, so that's like 50% of what many people already wanted. In the long run, a President that gets nothing done is really not so bad. It is those who throw a wrench into the works who's names live on in infamy.

Quite right, there was a quote i saw yesterday that said "Some people criticize him for playing golf so much. I wish he'd play a lot more golf and not try to do anything". 

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Merc14
17 hours ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

I'm beginning to think that's what Team Trump's foreign policy is going to be about (like with Syria). Everything's a distraction to divert attention from the fact that there are no policies anywhere in the entire administration and his entire way of doing business is to play it by ear as he goes along and some compromise will be arrived at and he'll be able to claim all the credit. 

I have your dumb **** on ignore too because of inane, know-nothing posts like this one.   Compromise is how government is designed to work, know-nothing, that is why the US has three branches.  Whydon't you stop commenting on things you are ignorant of, I mean you have been completely wrong about everything since Trump got elected. :rolleyes:

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Dumbledore the Awesome
6 hours ago, Merc14 said:

Whydon't you stop commenting on things you are ignorant of,

Yes, why don't people stop commenting on things that they know nothing about but Merc does. In fact why does anyone else bother saying anything at all? Merc knows all. You really do have difficulty with anyone who doesn't share exactly your opinion on any particular matter, don't you. That post, for example, was merely a speculative suggestion; what about it was so dumb or ignorant, in view of what we've seen of the Trump administration so far? I wasn't even attacking him really. And being so ultra-defensive (or offensive) to what you see as any criticism of your current favorite, don't you see that's absolutely identical to the way that you've often described "Libs" and "Dems" as being about Obama? 

If you do have my dumb ass on ignore, Merc, how come you always so eagerly jump up and explain how dumb everyone is who's so stupid as not to know what Merc does? It seems rather a contradiction. Unless of course it's as you said to Yam, that you like to "slap these idiots around a little from time to time." Well, I think that says more about your state of mind than the idiots who don't know as much as Merc does. Certainly about your level of maturity.

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Dumbledore the Awesome

And the real funny thing is, Merc, as I don't suppose you'd noticed, I was actually quite pro-Trump both before and after he was elected. So I'm afraid from the point of view of ignorance and know-nothing, it's your patronizing arrogance that's rather in error. 

Edited by Manfred von Dreidecker

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Hammerclaw

Play purty, children.

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and then
On 5/9/2017 at 11:08 PM, DieChecker said:

It appears nothing big has happened so far. Could just be more hyperbole from the Liberal Media and more blowing of smoke from Kim.

It is NOT OK that the US nuked Japan, though there was justifications aplenty. That means zero compared to today, almost 70 years later. Kim should not have nukes, and neither should we, or anyone. The second best thing is for NO ONE else to get nukes... looking at you Iran. 

I think we should figure out a way to relieve North Korea of their nuclear weapons. More of buying it off them, or tricking them out of them, rather then invasion. Military force should be the last way to try doing so. We basically gave Iran $30 billion in cash, right? Why can't we give North Korea something they would want, that would make the Dear Leader look like a People's Hero? Diplomacy is about being diplomatic, right? Not about being a bully.

Latest news appears to be just more insults and talk, coming at the issue from both ends.

 

Clinton took that approach in the 90's.  He paid the thugs off until he could leave office.  They took the money and food and continued working on their bombs.  At some point, his scientists and engineers will perfect a delivery system and miniaturize their warheads.  His threats won't just be insane bluster any longer.  I guess at that point the council will be to give him what he needs FHS!  Or maybe we should stand NOW and tell Xi that he can stop the little tyrant or we'll end him and his regime AND set up some shiny new cruise missiles for our buds in SK.  It can be amazing what even the threat of the exuberant application of high explosives can accomplish.  Failing that, follow through and totally destroy him and his military once, for all.  The US does not OWE millions of lives sacrificed to avoid casualties in another country.  It's just absurd.

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Merc14
6 hours ago, and then said:

Clinton took that approach in the 90's.  He paid the thugs off until he could leave office.  They took the money and food and continued working on their bombs.  At some point, his scientists and engineers will perfect a delivery system and miniaturize their warheads.  His threats won't just be insane bluster any longer.  I guess at that point the council will be to give him what he needs FHS!  Or maybe we should stand NOW and tell Xi that he can stop the little tyrant or we'll end him and his regime AND set up some shiny new cruise missiles for our buds in SK.  It can be amazing what even the threat of the exuberant application of high explosives can accomplish.  Failing that, follow through and totally destroy him and his military once, for all.  The US does not OWE millions of lives sacrificed to avoid casualties in another country.  It's just absurd.

A war with NK would be disastrous for the region and that includes China.  KJU is dug in very, very deeply with everything form long range artillery up to antiaircraft built in mountain shelters.  This gives him a nearly untouchable and massive first strike capability that would kill hundreds of thousands just in South Korea alone.   I'm not even talking about nukes but throw those into the equation and it gets much worse. 

Trump getting China to see how terrible a conflict would be for their economy (which is what I assume he did) was a very smart move, IMHO, and really the only viable way to rein this lunatic in.  Unfortunately they may not have the control they once had as KJU sees himself as invulnerable due to his nukes but you are right, this can only get worse ad his missile technology improves, which it is.  Know-nothings laugh at the possibility of a missile strike as KJU's new missiles blow up regularly but he has a whole lot of tried and proven missiles and the ones blowing up are new equipment being tested.  The NKs will fix the bugs and he will soon have that long range capability..

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and then
25 minutes ago, Merc14 said:

A war with NK would be disastrous for the region and that includes China.  KJU is dug in very, very deeply with everything form long range artillery up to antiaircraft built in mountain shelters.  This gives him a nearly untouchable and massive first strike capability that would kill hundreds of thousands just in South Korea alone.   I'm not even talking about nukes but throw those into the equation and it gets much worse. 

Trump getting China to see how terrible a conflict would be for their economy (which is what I assume he did) was a very smart move, IMHO, and really the only viable way to rein this lunatic in.  Unfortunately they may not have the control they once had as KJU sees himself as invulnerable due to his nukes but you are right, this can only get worse ad his missile technology improves, which it is.  Know-nothings laugh at the possibility of a missile strike as KJU's new missiles blow up regularly but he has a whole lot of tried and proven missiles and the ones blowing up are new equipment being tested.  The NKs will fix the bugs and he will soon have that long range capability..

 

I think that this war, should it come, would have nearly unimaginable casualties.  If he managed to detonate a nuke - or more - near or in Seoul it would be horrific.  I pray it never comes to having this showdown but you know that at some point he will have to be dealt with.  It's just the nature of this kind of beast.  It mystifies me how any human being could be this evil and still raised to such a level of power.  I actually feel as badly for the people in the North as I do for our allies.  I feel worst of ALL for our men and women who will surely be mauled if this begins.  He may leave no other choices but I think maybe he isn't crazy enough to risk his own death.  The south Koreans just elected a new president and he seems ready to talk with China and the Norks.  I still believe that China is the key.  They created this dog and now he seems to have gone rabid.  If Xi believes he could see a new, angry enemy on his southern border, maybe he'll act to stop it.

I saw one estimate, can't remember the source, that mentioned a 6-month time frame to conclude this if it went hot.  From your experience, does that seem possible?  I can't imagine that the issue could be in doubt for that long.  I guess some insurgency might be possible but surely we and the ROK forces could eliminate the worst of his destructive power in a matter of a couple of weeks?  I only know what I read and the idea of another meat grinder like we experienced in the 50's, sickens me.

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Merc14
1 hour ago, and then said:

I think that this war, should it come, would have nearly unimaginable casualties.  If he managed to detonate a nuke - or more - near or in Seoul it would be horrific.  I pray it never comes to having this showdown but you know that at some point he will have to be dealt with.  It's just the nature of this kind of beast.  It mystifies me how any human being could be this evil and still raised to such a level of power.  I actually feel as badly for the people in the North as I do for our allies.  I feel worst of ALL for our men and women who will surely be mauled if this begins.  He may leave no other choices but I think maybe he isn't crazy enough to risk his own death.  The south Koreans just elected a new president and he seems ready to talk with China and the Norks.  I still believe that China is the key.  They created this dog and now he seems to have gone rabid.  If Xi believes he could see a new, angry enemy on his southern border, maybe he'll act to stop it.

I hope so and I see no advantage of a hostile NK to a modern China but then again, they above a very different outlook on the world than America.

1 hour ago, and then said:

I saw one estimate, can't remember the source, that mentioned a 6-month time frame to conclude this if it went hot.  From your experience, does that seem possible?  I can't imagine that the issue could be in doubt for that long.  I guess some insurgency might be possible but surely we and the ROK forces could eliminate the worst of his destructive power in a matter of a couple of weeks?  I only know what I read and the idea of another meat grinder like we experienced in the 50's, sickens me.

I never did a Pacific cruise so was never briefed directly on NK but I remember discussing the difficulties of using air power over NK when I went to Fighter Weapons School.  They have hidden everything in underground enclosures and basically pop open the doors and launch and A/G missile at you and then shut the doors back up.  Same thing with their artillery and troops which means it is very difficult to soften them up before a land attack.  Given the variables I'd simply be guessing about how long it would take to defeat them and then you have the big variable, China.

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RoofGardener

Artillary guns in the mountains ? Fine.... the SK and US forces have high-frequency radar systems that can track a shells trajectory, and trace it back to the source within seconds, and relay that information back to their OWN counter-battery artillary. 

A "pop up" anti-aircraft missile hidden behind an automatic door ? No problem.... you can hide a missile that way, but you can't hide the detection/targeting radar. Knock THAT out, and the missiles stay in their holes. And so on. And so forth. 

NK is a paper tiger. Its armed forces look good on paper, but that's about it. Sure, they could ripple-fire pre-positioned artillery against Seoul, and it WOULD kill many hundreds of people. But they can only do that once or twice before the guns are destroyed. Leave it for another decade, and it will be atomic bombs landing on Seoul, not artillery shells. "We" should grasp the nettle NOW, and stop hiding behind liberal-left hand-wringing. 

We don't need to mess around with regime change or promoting democracy or transitional occupation. Just kick the heck out of his military until they revolt against him. And if they don't, kick them some more, destroy all the artillery pieces, flatten the mountains, and then leave !

 

Edited by RoofGardener

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Merc14
17 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Artillary guns in the mountains ? Fine.... the SK and US forces have high-frequency radar systems that can track a shells trajectory, and trace it back to the source within seconds, and relay that information back to their OWN counter-battery artillary. 

A "pop up" anti-aircraft missile hidden behind an automatic door ? No problem.... you can hide a missile that way, but you can't hide the detection/targeting radar. Knock THAT out, and the missiles stay in their holes. And so on. And so forth. 

NK is a paper tiger. Its armed forces look good on paper, but that's about it. Sure, they could ripple-fire pre-positioned artillery against Seoul, and it WOULD kill many hundreds of people. But they can only do that once or twice before the guns are destroyed. Leave it for another decade, and it will be atomic bombs landing on Seoul, not artillery shells. "We" should grasp the nettle NOW, and stop hiding behind liberal-left hand-wringing. 

I think it would be more on the order of tens of thousands and billions in property loss.  Also, this discussion I had was back in the 80's so who knows what systems they have now.

17 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

We don't need to mess around with regime change or promoting democracy or transitional occupation. Just kick the heck out of his military until they revolt against him. And if they don't, kick them some more, destroy all the artillery pieces, flatten the mountains, and then leave !

We may have to go to war to stop him but I see little taste for that amongst the American public.    I am sure that there are plans in place for handling this lunatic and our weaponry is far more powerful than when I was in but the Chinese getting rid of this guy would be the best thing for all parties involved. 

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The Caspian Hare

ARtillery threat to Seoul is overstated. 90% of their artillery can't range Seoul. Dud rate when they shelled the ROK island a few years ago was about 25% :blink: which is abysmal. They would be subject to attrition from counterbattery fire and mechanical breakdown. Firing rate also goes down as the supply system gets disrupted.

It would be bad but not apocalyptic.

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Merc14
29 minutes ago, The Russian Hare said:

ARtillery threat to Seoul is overstated. 90% of their artillery can't range Seoul. Dud rate when they shelled the ROK island a few years ago was about 25% :blink: which is abysmal. They would be subject to attrition from counterbattery fire and mechanical breakdown. Firing rate also goes down as the supply system gets disrupted.

It would be bad but not apocalyptic.

I should have been more clear, when I said artillery I was including the ground to ground rocket forces.  

Edited by Merc14

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The Silver Thong

and yet nothing, what a shock. We always need a bad guy otherwise Ironman would be out of work.

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bee

.

they don't seem to be sure what it was....
 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4503382/N-Korea-fires-unidentified-projectile-S-Korea-military.html

US Pacific Command says the flight was not consistent with an intercontinental ballistic missile. 

Japan's defense minister Tomomi Inada told reporters there is a possibility that it was a new type of ballistic missile, saying it flew Sunday for about 30 minutes and at an altitude exceeding 1,240 miles. She says more analysis was needed.

.

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Dumbledore the Awesome

It was probably one of Kim Kardashian's minions who'd undercooked his pizza. 

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Dumbledore the Awesome

Like I've asked before though, when most countries do missile tests they do it in clearly defined exclusion zones where shipping and aircraft and so on are given plenty of notice and warned to keep clear. Does Kim J just lob them in the general direction of sort of over that way somewhere with no idea where it'll actually end up? That seems rather irresponsible.

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bee
7 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

It was probably one of Kim Kardashian's minions who'd undercooked his pizza. 

.

:lol:

I lolled

 

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bee
2 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Like I've asked before though, when most countries do missile tests they do it in clearly defined exclusion zones where shipping and aircraft and so on are given plenty of notice and warned to keep clear. Does Kim J just lob them in the general direction of sort of over that way somewhere with no idea where it'll actually end up? That seems rather irresponsible.

.

'''someone''' probably took control of it and tried to make it hit Russian soil... 

all these high tech weapons and missiles are dependent on computer programs and hacking is the new front line I think...

:wacko:

.

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Hammerclaw
5 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Like I've asked before though, when most countries do missile tests they do it in clearly defined exclusion zones where shipping and aircraft and so on are given plenty of notice and warned to keep clear. Does Kim J just lob them in the general direction of sort of over that way somewhere with no idea where it'll actually end up? That seems rather irresponsible.

Yeah, well China's pet tyrant bangs his own drum and marches to the beat.

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Dumbledore the Awesome
1 minute ago, bee said:

.

'''someone''' probably took control of it and tried to make it hit Russian soil... 

all these high tech weapons and missiles are dependent on computer programs and hacking is the new front line I think...

:wacko:

.

I bet it uses Windows XP. 

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