Tell me it ain't so

[+and-then]

On 4/21/2017 at 7:21 PM, Frank Merton said:

So then what is their purpose?  

Voting registration should be automatic for all residents -- this is one of the reasons US voter turnout tends to be lower -- people are discouraged by the red tape and waiting in line and delays the clerks seeing a black face create.  Get real.

ANYONE who wants to vote in the US can vote after filling out a basic form.  If they cannot fill out demographic info on a form - or have someone help them if they are illiterate - then they probably shouldn't vote.  Frank you are totally disconnected from reality on this issue and you are embarrassing yourself.  The ONLY reason for not wanting to show a simple photo ID is to enable vote fraud.    And there is evidence of it as well:  http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/12/records-many-votes-detroits-precincts/95363314/

[Merc14]

2 hours ago, and then said:

ANYONE who wants to vote in the US can vote after filling out a basic form.  If they cannot fill out demographic info on a form - or have someone help them if they are illiterate - then they probably shouldn't vote.  Frank you are totally disconnected from reality on this issue and you are embarrassing yourself.  The ONLY reason for not wanting to show a simple photo ID is to enable vote fraud.    And there is evidence of it as well:  http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/12/records-many-votes-detroits-precincts/95363314/

Frank is certifiable, unfortunately.  Very sad.  My advice is put him on ignore as arguing with mental merton can only get you banned

[Frank Merton]

On 4/20/2017 at 0:59 AM, Ellapennella said:

President Trump does so believe in democracy, we are not a 3rd world country whereas when you do not win an election you riot and destroy everything. Our democracy is very important to us.

So you claim over and over and over.  That doesn't prove much.

[Frank Merton]

The concept of first past the post is problematic, since someone can win with a minority.  What is needed is what most countries have -

15 minutes ago, Merc14 said:

Frank is certifiable, unfortunately.  Very sad.  My advice is put him on ignore as arguing with mental merton can only get you banned

- a series of primaries until someone gets a majority.   Odd that piece of nastiness somehow got inserted there.  Because  I support genuine democracy and he supports something else makes me "certifiable." 

[Frank Merton]

Making it difficult to register to vote is what the racists want, so they can maintain power.  Until they show actual widespread voter fraud -- which they demonstrably have not -- they are just hypocrites trying to avoid real democracy in favor of systems that keep them in power.

[Frank Merton]

By the way, there is nothing "sad" about me.  I am just telling the truth and some people don't like their little lies pointed out.

[Frank Merton]

3 hours ago, and then said:

ANYONE who wants to vote in the US can vote after filling out a basic form.  If they cannot fill out demographic info on a form - or have someone help them if they are illiterate - then they probably shouldn't vote.  Frank you are totally disconnected from reality on this issue and you are embarrassing yourself.  The ONLY reason for not wanting to show a simple photo ID is to enable vote fraud.    And there is evidence of it as well:  http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/12/records-many-votes-detroits-precincts/95363314/

Largely that is true.  The problem is that in many states there are efforts to change it using the fiction of voter fraud as an excuse.  The real frauds in the US occur during the counting process, not by actual voters.

[Frank Merton]

8 minutes ago, Frank Merton said:

Largely that is true.  The problem is that in many states there are efforts to change it using the fiction of voter fraud as an excuse.  The real frauds in the US occur during the counting process, not by actual voters.

I find it odd that someone with the views of "and then" tells me I'm out of contact with reality.  That is a personal insult if ever there was one, but this thread seems to be nothing but Americans angry at having the fact that they are not really a democracy pointed out -- with proof they can't refute so they resort to insults.  

[.ZZ.]

13 minutes ago, Frank Merton said:

Largely that is true.  The problem is that in many states there are efforts to change it using the fiction of voter fraud as an excuse.  The real frauds in the US occur during the counting process, not by actual voters.

You speak of proof. Can you provide it here?

[Frank Merton]

7 hours ago, .ZZ. said:

You speak of proof. Can you provide it here?

It seems to me you are the people claiming you need all sorts of voter controls because of widespread voter fraud, but have yet to produce even one example.  Don't be such obvious hypocrites -- the agenda is to reduce Black and similar voter turnout.

As for putting  me on "ignore," that would be great.  I realize that this was not from you but from one of your clique, but isn't it childish and self-defeating.  If I'm on your ignore list you won't know what I say to respond to giving me a huge debating advantage.  My experience  with ignore lists is this is one of the last threats brought by those losing it.

[Farmer77]

Just now, Frank Merton said:

It seems to me you are the people claiming you need all sorts of voter controls because of widespread voter fraud, but have yet to produce even one example.  Don't be such obvious hypocrites -- the agenda is to reduce Black and similar voter turnout.

The agenda absolutely is to reduce minority voter turnout. I think the piece that is missing here though is intent. The intent isnt to disenfranchise any race in particular, the party itself isnt racist nor are the majority of those we debate here on UM. They simply want to give their party the greatest advantage possible.

Its well known that democrat voters dont work as hard to vote as republicans, i.e less dems turn out on rainy election days, so by putting up obstacles such as voter ID laws (which for the record if they make the ID's free for all im all for) and strategically realigning voting precincts they can lower democrat voter turnout. 

Someone else said this about jeff sessions (the evil gnome) and I think its largely true of him and many republicans in general , paraphrasing : "I dont think he's a racist in his heart but he sure works for racist results" . Its not an intentional act done out of hate but the end result ends up being the same. 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Farmer77

[Frank Merton]

2 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

The agenda absolutely is to reduce minority voter turnout. I think the piece that is missing here though is intent. The intent isnt to disenfranchise any race in particular, the party itself isnt racist nor are the majority of those we debate here on UM. They simply want to give their party the greatest advantage possible.

Its well known that democrat voters dont work as hard to vote as republicans, i.e less dems turn out on rainy election days, so by putting up obstacles such as voter ID laws (which for the record if they make the ID's free for all im all for) and strategically realigning voting precincts they can lower democrat voter turnout. 

Someone else said this about jeff sessions (the evil gnome) and I think its largely true of him and many republicans in general , paraphrasing : "I dont think he's a racist in his heart but he sure works for racist results" . Its not an intentional act done out of hate but the end result ends up being the same. 

And you consider that promoting democracy?

[Frank Merton]

3 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

The agenda absolutely is to reduce minority voter turnout. I think the piece that is missing here though is intent. The intent isnt to disenfranchise any race in particular, the party itself isnt racist nor are the majority of those we debate here on UM. They simply want to give their party the greatest advantage possible.

Its well known that democrat voters dont work as hard to vote as republicans, i.e less dems turn out on rainy election days, so by putting up obstacles such as voter ID laws (which for the record if they make the ID's free for all im all for) and strategically realigning voting precincts they can lower democrat voter turnout. 

Someone else said this about jeff sessions (the evil gnome) and I think its largely true of him and many republicans in general , paraphrasing : "I dont think he's a racist in his heart but he sure works for racist results" . Its not an intentional act done out of hate but the end result ends up being the same. 

And you think this is a way to promote democracy?

[Frank Merton]

Often countries go for long periods of time with huge voter apathy and low voter turnout.  What they end up with is government that represents the interests of big money and lawyers.  This is somewhat deliberately the policy in some states.  In the end, though, the end up losing all traces of democracy as it is gradually eroded away.  They may end up with a Hitler or they may end up with a government so deadlocked it can't do anything.  Sometimes the first comes before the deadlock, but usually it is the other way round.

[Farmer77]

Just now, Frank Merton said:

And you consider that promoting democracy?

No but it adds perspective and kind of humanizes the conversation. I think that if we dont dig beyond the headlines to figure out why people do and believe the things they do we're just perpetuating the "Kardashian- instagram"  hot take culture. 

Just now, Frank Merton said:

And you think this is a way to promote democracy?

 Well No. Its a mess , a horrible horrible mess. 

[Farmer77]

Just now, Frank Merton said:

Often countries go for long periods of time with huge voter apathy and low voter turnout.  What they end up with is government that represents the interests of big money and lawyers.  This is somewhat deliberately the policy in some states.  In the end, though, the end up losing all traces of democracy as it is gradually eroded away.  They may end up with a Hitler or they may end up with a government so deadlocked it can't do anything.  Sometimes the first comes before the deadlock, but usually it is the other way round.

Our nation has already slipped into an oligarchy Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens , the deadlock is here ....hmmm wonder whats next for the US of A? 

[Frank Merton]

One important way is to get rid of institutions, like the Electoral College, that obviously give certain groups more voting power than others,  There are a lot of things that can be done -- California has taken major steps to contrtol incumbency power, money power, party power, Gerrymandering, 

There is an old maxim, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Until evidence of massive voter fraud is produced, that part of the law should be as open and liberal as possible.

[Frank Merton]

6 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Our nation has already slipped into an oligarchy Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens , the deadlock is here ....hmmm wonder whats next for the US of A? 

In the US it is money factions, and you always have those.  Perfection is not attainable by mankind, but we don't need to make things worse.

[quiXilver]

15 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

Of course. God knows it couldn't have anything to do with him being probably the worst president ever. lol

The man gave assault rifles to drug cartels. Intentionally.

Robert Anton Wilson puts that same sentiment very succinctly.

 

Every national border that we recognize, represents a place where two rival gangs finally got tired of killing each other and decided to stop.

 

[Soccergirl13]

14 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Well we could demonize Erdogan, then beat the drum loudly for regime change. It worked so well in Libya, Egypt and Syria. Oh, let's not! We have to cultivate cordial relations with all sorts of distasteful leaders all around the world, so why single him out for persecution? The only ones who would gain from such overt hostility is Russia and Iran. Why would anyone in their right mind want to do that?

Because there are innocent journalist imprisoned just because they are reporting something Erdogan doesn't like.

Because he wants to reinstate the death penalty  (I am not entirely against it but it should be for convicted murderers and all those baby rapist and if you see point one it's not entirely too far off to think he would use it on anyone he pleases).

Because he just made himself a Sultan with total power over everything. (Maybe also a reason why Trump called to ask how he achieved sth that Trump wishes to achieve as well. He obviously didn't like the fact that a democracy was able to overturn his decision) 

Because he is still part of nato and having such a nut job on "your" side might be dangerous. Enemy from within. Because he is still trying to join the EU. Even though I'm pretty sure that ship has sailed for good now. And and and

[+Hammerclaw]

5 hours ago, Soccergirl13 said:

Because there are innocent journalist imprisoned just because they are reporting something Erdogan doesn't like.

Because he wants to reinstate the death penalty  (I am not entirely against it but it should be for convicted murderers and all those baby rapist and if you see point one it's not entirely too far off to think he would use it on anyone he pleases).

Because he just made himself a Sultan with total power over everything. (Maybe also a reason why Trump called to ask how he achieved sth that Trump wishes to achieve as well. He obviously didn't like the fact that a democracy was able to overturn his decision) 

Because he is still part of nato and having such a nut job on "your" side might be dangerous. Enemy from within. Because he is still trying to join the EU. Even though I'm pretty sure that ship has sailed for good now. And and and

Better our side as somebody else's. You see, bringing democracy to Islam is a two-edged sword. Turkey is a case-in-point. We have no control who the people choose and the alternative to Erdogan could be even worse. Better to deal with the devil we know.

[Frank Merton]

15 hours ago, Farmer77 said:

Our nation has already slipped into an oligarchy Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens , the deadlock is here ....hmmm wonder whats next for the US of A? 

There are things that can be done.

First, stop worrying so much about monopoly per se and start worrying about monopolistic behavior.  In the States there are laws to prevent the formation of monopolies (known as anti-trust laws) that always result in years and years of litigation (if the parties are determined and so is the Dept of Justice).  Monopolies happen many other ways besides combination, and laws to break up any monopoly, no matter how formed, are needed.  Therefore even if the would-be monopoly prevails in court, when it starts acting like a monopoly it can still be stopped.  Prices that seem to follow each other in a given industry are achieved via signals, rarely via the already illegal conspiracy to set prices, and need legal suppression regardless.  When profits in a given industry are consistently better than one would expect, this needs attention.

Also laws against price gouging (use of a special situation -- usually a temporary monopoly -- to extract an excessive profit.  If the special situation causes costs to be higher, then there is a defense, but not beyond the higher costs.

Free trade (the availability of foreigners to compete always helps, but you also then need cooperation with the foreign government agencies there to prevent multi-national monopolies (not a bad idea anyway).

Eliminate tax-loss carry-forward -- probably the single most egregious aspect of the US tax law and one that only rewards the inefficient instead of forcing them into the bankruptcy they should be in.  It is also how people like Trump screw the public.  The argument for it is one of "justice."  Economic efficiency should be a goal of corporate taxes -- let the stockholders worry about justice by selling the stock of losers.

In fact, though, (although now Trump may, with his elimination of the line between his personal wealth and the assets of the nation, upset this) the US is nowhere near in as bad a shape in this regard as are most countries.  You will be ruled by the wealthy -- there is no other choice -- it just happens.  The point is to control the wealthy and put those who get there illegitimately in jail.  A flat-out wealth tax can help, but such a thing does distort the economy a lot and so has to be a small part of such an effort.

[Frank Merton]

Let me add that the real problem with money and politics is not buying votes, directly or via media campaigns, as many a millionaire had leaned the sad way, but the ability to indirectly buy access, so you have a chance to state your case better than your opponent who hasn't the ability to "buy" access has.

[Only_]

At this point I'd say the interests of the U.S. and Turkey seem to align quite well. Except for the Kurds which their views differ, they both want to remove the Syrian regime, pretend to fight ISIS, and eventually install their own puppet regime in it's place.

Edited April 24, 2017 by TruthSeeker_

[+and-then]

On 4/22/2017 at 11:29 PM, Frank Merton said:

Largely that is true.  The problem is that in many states there are efforts to change it using the fiction of voter fraud as an excuse.  The real frauds in the US occur during the counting process, not by actual voters.

 

So we have a precinct where there are more votes than registered voters and you blow past that like it's no problem?  Whatever, Frank.