Theresa May calls General Election for June 8

[Setton]

5 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

Yes, it got many of us. But Labour + Liberal + SNP still isn't a majority. Corbyn needs to go as does May.

Why would Corbyn go? Sure his party didn't win but he as a leader undeniably did. He's begun to make progress on Milliband's disaster and 20+ seats gained on a snap election is no small thing. Don't forget, May chose when this election would happen. To be in a position with that kind of advantage and still lose so many seats is disastrous leadership.

Put simply, in terms of parties, the Tories still won.

In terms of leaders, Labour won.

[Space Commander Travis]

1 hour ago, Setton said:

Why would Corbyn go?

There's no point arguing with fanaticism. The argument apparently goes "T. May completely wiped out her majority and only manages to cling on to the position of PM by the skin of her teeth, having spectacularly misjudged the entire campaign, which depended entirely on her personality only for her to discover that according to a sizeable proportion of the electorate, she didn't, as far as they were concerned, have one, and is now a lame duck limping along unable to push anything through knowing that any plans that she might have (if she has any) could be blocked by Labour with a snap of their fingers, but she's nevertheless a winner and the right and worthy Leader to lead Britain into a Brighter Tomorrow, while J. Corbyn won more seats than anyone possibly imagined (indeed, many thought he'd lose many of what he already had), and wiped out the majority that the other party had, but because he didn't manage to get an overall majority he failed and should go". There is logic in this argument somewhere, I think that CERN have some time booked on the Large Hardon Collider next time they fire it up in an attempt to find it. 

Edited June 9, 2017 by Manfred von Dreidecker

[Space Commander Travis]

What we're seeing, of course, is exactly the same as from the Remain camp post-Brexit referendum and most spectacularly from the "Democratic" Party post-last November. It seems to be quite normal now, it seems to be impossible for any side to concede with any grace and they must construct elaborate towers of conspiracy theory or explain through tortuous logic that the side that wiped out your majority and now hold the whip hand is in fact the one that failed. It won't be long before Russian Hacking begins to be blamed, you wait and see. 

[Space Commander Travis]

4 hours ago, Essan said:

Rumours are that Labour's better than expected showing was down to a big increase in the number of 17-22 year old voting.   The demographic that is both the most gullible and has no experience of what living under a socialist govt is like. 

Oh dear, and I'd just clicked like for one of your previous posts, now you come out with this crushing condescension. "They're too naive and gullible to understand all the complexities that we understand". All the sophisticated complexities apparently amounting to "Brexit means Brexit" and "Strong and Stable" and "if in doubt, have more police with machine guns striding about". The conservative case wasn't really very sophisticated was it? 

[Space Commander Travis]

6 hours ago, bee said:

 

The people have spoken - now we have to respect and accept the results - and the compromises
that might come from that -

one good thing at least the spectre of another Scottish Independence referendum and a break up
of the United Kingdom has faded away (for now)

 

you're about the only one who was on the whole pro-Ms. May who's acknowledged this with any grace, it does make a change from all the sour grapes and condescension we see all around.

[Space Commander Travis]

3 hours ago, LV-426 said:

People should be careful what they wish for though. Corbyn will not be PM. Mathematically he simply can't form an alliance with a large enough majority, whereas with DUP support, the Tories can. If people inside or outside the Tory party put enough pressure on May, and she resigns, expect someone such as Boris Johnson to take over. Does anyone on either side of the political spectrum actually want that?

Well exactly, i think this is about the optimum result that could have been hoped for given (a) that the Conservatives apparently had no policies beyond slogans, and (b) Mr. Corbyn, while he did have policies, were not exactly realistic (nationalization of everything and power back to the Unions), and with the looming spectre of Brexit. Now at least the Conservatives will have to come up with something concrete about Brexit rather than just relying on slogan-chanting, while the Opposition will be strong enough to keep check on her more fiercely draconian ideas, and either way, far, far rather Ms. May than Britain's slightly younger version of Mr. Trump. 

[+and-then]

7 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

Corbyns delusional, i've just watched him claim on tv he's won the Election, ready to serve and negotiate brexit but even stranger John Mc Donnell saying Conservative needs to step aside because the people have spoken?

That kind of delusional behavior seems to be spreading and it could mean serious changes on the horizon, depending on how far one group or other is willing to take it.  Just look at the absolute meltdown/soft coup being attempted by the Progressives over here.  When Democracies' populations become unhinged on the core tenets of respecting the vote, and I'm not saying that is the UK's issue, (yet) unpleasant outcomes can be expected with high confidence.  Frankly, I was shocked that a man like Corbyn was elevated within his party.  If he manages to finagle his way into 10 Downing, I suspect that his constituents will be elated about the spit in the eye it will mean for UK/US relations but the rest of the nation might not be so sanguine about it.  

[keithisco]

The reasons "why" people voted the way they did is probably now irrelevant. Corbyn did pull a trump card with his immediate abolition of tuition fees-if I was at Uni I would also vote for him. May seemed intent on snatching defeat from the jaws of victory with ridiculous announcements (Fox-Hunting anyone?), a half-baked social care announcement etc etc.

Anyway, the next event will be the Brexit negotiations-I hope we get to learn what the EU27 demands are before accepted or rejected, and to know what the UK counter-offer will be.

[stevewinn]

Well what happened there then, the landslide didn't materialise, and the media get their sounds bites.

I am surprised the Tories didnt do better and get a majority something along the lines of 340 MP's but, then we have to take the positives of the situation.

The Tories remain as the Government.

Corbyn and Labour are not in power, and never done very good in the grand scheme of things, just because they never hit the basement floor as expected, for some funny reason the 261 MP's they did get although poor its being held up as some achievement, Elections are a results business, Labour failed to Win the election and thus get the result.

Brexit remains on course.

The SNP was dealt a real blow, Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson losing their seat was a bonus. and Indyref2 dead in the water.

The fact still remains, although opportunist by Teresa May this election needed to be held just on the Brexit time line alone, Leaving the EU would have been 2019. just when Government would be preparing for the next election held in 2019 or 2020.

 

[spartan max2]

As always a little confused by U.K goverment system.

Can someone explain to me how this was a big deal if the same party still holds majority afterwords?

[skookum]

59 minutes ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Oh dear, and I'd just clicked like for one of your previous posts, now you come out with this crushing condescension. "They're too naive and gullible to understand all the complexities that we understand". All the sophisticated complexities apparently amounting to "Brexit means Brexit" and "Strong and Stable" and "if in doubt, have more police with machine guns striding about". The conservative case wasn't really very sophisticated was it? 

Well my step daughter visited last night and announced she had voted Labour.  Not sure she understood what a secret ballot was but there you go.  Her mum asked in a constructive way what she liked about Labour.

The answer was "All the cool people are voting Labour it is all over Facebook". She couldn't name one policy in their manifesto.

[Setton]

1 hour ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

There's no point arguing with fanaticism. The argument apparently goes "T. May completely wiped out her majority and only manages to cling on to the position of PM by the skin of her teeth, having spectacularly misjudged the entire campaign, which depended entirely on her personality only for her to discover that according to a sizeable proportion of the electorate, she didn't, as far as they were concerned, have one, 

I'm reminded of that line in Blackadder: 

"We're going to fight this election on issues not personalities... because our candidate hasn't got one."

Of course, May also forgot to say anything on the issues too...

29 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

Corbyn and Labour are not in power, and never done very good in the grand scheme of things, just because they never hit the basement floor as expected, for some funny reason the 261 MP's they did get although poor its being held up as some achievement, Elections are a results business, Labour failed to Win the election and thus get the result.

It's being held up as an achievement due to the improvement on the disastrous 2015 election. With the rise of the SNP last time and the short time to prepare for this election and constant personal attacks and in-party division, Labour still managed to gain ground. They never expected to win, it was more about reining in the Tories and laying the groundwork for the next general election when they might be in a position to actually win.

You might not like him, but no-one honest can deny Corbyn has pulled off a successful campaign. To turn a predicted Tory landslide into a lost majority is no small achievement.

9 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

As always a little confused by U.K goverment system.

Can someone explain to me how this was a big deal if the same party still holds majority afterwords?

That's basically it: they don't hold a majority anymore. May just threw it away.

The house of commons is made up of 650 seats so a party needs at least 326 to have a majority. Conservatives had a majority but now only hold 318. They can only form a government by working with another party. So rather than relying on their own MPs support, they're aiming to get the DUP to support them as well (another 10 seats). This gives them a majority but means they will have to make concessions to the DUP on certain policies (Brexit likely one of them). Even then, they only have 328 seats together. I.e. if just 3 MPs don't vote with the party line, they will lose a vote.

[Space Commander Travis]

So the only solution for this disaster is to raise the voting age to, what, 25? Perhaps 30 for women, as it was originally, and only then if they can show sufficient wisdom to vote the right way, i.e. Conservative.

 

On the subject of naming one policy in their manifesto., can anyone name any specific policies, i.e. concrete plans what to do about things, in the Conservative one other than "Brexit Means Brexit", "Strong and Stable"? Anyone? Oh wait, they'll keep the Nuclear Deterrent, because that will of course protect the nation against the most plausible current threats, won't it. 

 

[Space Commander Travis]

38 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

Well what happened there then, the landslide didn't materialise, and the media get their sounds bites.

I am surprised the Tories didnt do better and get a majority something along the lines of 340 MP's but, then we have to take the positives of the situation.

The Tories remain as the Government.

Corbyn and Labour are not in power, and never done very good in the grand scheme of things, just because they never hit the basement floor as expected, for some funny reason the 261 MP's they did get although poor its being held up as some achievement, Elections are a results business, Labour failed to Win the election and thus get the result.

Brexit remains on course.

The SNP was dealt a real blow, Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson losing their seat was a bonus. and Indyref2 dead in the water.

The fact still remains, although opportunist by Teresa May this election needed to be held just on the Brexit time line alone, Leaving the EU would have been 2019. just when Government would be preparing for the next election held in 2019 or 2020.

 

Oh come on Steve, do you remember your predictions several pages back by now? Wasn't it that Ms. May would have a majority of 100 or more? Why do you too find it so hard to admit reality? This is just the same thing I was talking about above, trying to find a bright side is one thing but this completely turns all logic on its head. Ms. May did not get what she wanted - a comfortable majority that would give her the authority she wanted - and completely lost the majority she had. She's a lame duck. She's John Major the second, not the Mrs Thatcher the second she wanted to be. Actually JM did better than her because he did have a majority, thin as it may have been. She's only been able to hang on to office by begging the blinkin' Ulster Unionists for help. This is a monumental failure by any standards. Why hide your head in the sand? 

[Space Commander Travis]

Piers Morgan may frequently be an unpleasant piece of work, but I think he's got his finger on the pulse here:

Dear Theresa, you are a discredited dead duck

[Torchwood]

 

Sooooo...the DUP eh? 

Anti-Gay

Anti-abortion

Links with Terrorists

Want to bring back the death penalty

Wasted masses of public money

How we all feeling about them running the country?

 

When someone who sells weapons to Terrorist supporting Regimes and tells us not to vote for a terrorist sympathiser so she can take a hard line against terrorism by destroying Human Rights, jumps into bed with a bunch of Terrorist Sympathisers funded by a regime that Supports Terrorism...something has gone ****-wreckingly wrong.

 

 

Oh but dont forget the thing that we can all agree on- Last night Corbyn put the final nail in New Labours coffin! You will never hear from that smug git Blair again because Stormin Corbyn has him chained up in a basement somewhere!  Woohoo!  No More Tory-Lite, just the left keeping the right in check!

Edited June 9, 2017 by Torchwood

[Space Commander Travis]

Does anyone detect a touch of irony in the phrase "Coalition of Chaos" now? 

[stevewinn]

1 hour ago, Manfred von Dreidecker said:

Oh come on Steve, do you remember your predictions several pages back by now? Wasn't it that Ms. May would have a majority of 100 or more? Why do you too find it so hard to admit reality? This is just the same thing I was talking about above, trying to find a bright side is one thing but this completely turns all logic on its head. Ms. May did not get what she wanted - a comfortable majority that would give her the authority she wanted - and completely lost the majority she had. She's a lame duck. She's John Major the second, not the Mrs Thatcher the second she wanted to be. Actually JM did better than her because he did have a majority, thin as it may have been. She's only been able to hang on to office by begging the blinkin' Ulster Unionists for help. This is a monumental failure by any standards. Why hide your head in the sand? 

I do remember my prediction, and i did admit in a post shortly afterwards and well before the result or exit poll i got carried away with the numbers. it was just a bit of fun.

Theresa May thought the polls where with her she took a political gamble, as you do in politics, I mean think of past elections they are in the main called when they are convenient to the governing party, - riding high in the polls. Theresa done nothing different.

The reality is The Tories still won and are still the Government, Corbyn got ahead of himself and is on record stating he's preparing for Government, a minority Government well, he got carried away because even if you add up, Labour, Lib Dems, Greens, SNP, combined they still don't have more seats than the Tories.

combined Lab, Lib Dem etc.. 313. Tories 318, add the DUP to the Tories total 328. before the election Theresa had a 17 majority now with the DUP the majority is 15. The DUP campaigned to Leave the EU, so in theory she should have no problems with Brexit votes in the House of Parliament.

We are where we are, Theresa might be replaced over the coming days or weeks or even survive. i hope she does, but either way the fact remains, The Tory Party are the Government, the largest party, and with support from the DUP  Brexit will continue, the big plus is the SNP in Scotland being put in their place, they lost more than a third of their seats (21 seats) Tories took 13, Labour 7, Lib dem's 4. The big fear with Brexit was breakup of the United Kingdom Union. the issue of a second Scottish referendum is dead in the water.

to sum it up.

Continuation of a Tory Government.

Corbyn (Labour) no nearer power than before the election. the next chance he'll get at being Prime minister will be 2022, he'll be age 73. Worth mentioning, Corbyn had amassed maximum support from his supporters and only got 261 seats. this is his high water mark. does labour now split or rally behind him, with the high possibility he wont even be labour leader in 2021/22.

The SNP damaged, Union protected.

Brexit continues as before.

I'd say the election was a waste of time, because not much as really changed - except for the blow to the SNP, (saving the Union) and if Theresa hadn't called this election we'd have been holding a general election in the middle of the EU negotiations or the signing of a possible EU deal, which means the Governing party that negotiated the deal might not be the same government in office when it come to signing the deal.

i've repeated myself a lot but i want to stress the bigger picture. listening to the media and wanting their pound of flesh, a few people thought this was a second chance to stop Brexit means Brexit, they failed, and much of what we seen in the fallout from the referendum we are seeing again. standby for Gina Miller et'al to be back on our screens, and chief quisling Nick Clegg got his marching orders. but the fact these losers lost they'll still be put on our TV screens.

Alex Salmond gone.

Angus Robertson gone.

Clegg gone.

I love it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Setton]

10 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

 

combined Lab, Lib Dem etc.. 313. Tories 318, add the DUP to the Tories total 328. before the election Theresa had a 17 majority now with the DUP the majority is 15. The DUP campaigned to Leave the EU, so in theory she should have no problems with Brexit votes in the House of Parliament.

328-325 is 3. She has a majority of 3. And with the famed reliability of tory backbenchers she is attached to another surface by an inclined plane = screwed. And I am loving it :-D

As for brexit, DUP was leave but they're very against having a hard border with republic of Ireland. Possibly problems for her controlling immigration there. But she's never managed to hit a target yet so no surprise really. 

Edited June 9, 2017 by Setton

[Torchwood]

3 minutes ago, Setton said:

328-325 is 3. She has a majority of 3. And with the famed reliability of tory backbenchers she is attached to another surface by an inclined plane = screwed. And I am loving it :-D

As for brexit, DUP was leave but they're very against having a hard border with republic of Ireland. Possibly problems for her controlling immigration there. But she's never managed to hit a target yet so no surprise really. 

This- Theres rebellion in the air, and with it comes another GE, and the Tories don't have the stomach for another one! 

[stevewinn]

8 minutes ago, Setton said:

328-325 is 3. She has a majority of 3. And with the famed reliability of tory backbenchers she is attached to another surface by an inclined plane = screwed. And I am loving it :-D

As for brexit, DUP was leave but they're very against having a hard border with republic of Ireland. Possibly problems for her controlling immigration there. But she's never managed to hit a target yet so no surprise really. 

Your not loving it i can tell from your post. i did warn you Labour supporters you wouldn't be happy on the morning of June 9th. Next people will be starting to talk about another election in the Autumn. some people cannot except defeat and when it comes to political ideals  they are in the minority and once again on the wrong side of History.

Tories, 318 seats.

DUP, 10 seats.

Tory, & DUP combined, 328.

Labour, Lib Dems, Greens, SNP combined. 313.

Who'd win in a commons vote.

Dont worry about Ireland, if the UK gets a bad deal from the EU or No deal, Ireland will be Leaving the EU in much the same way they had no choice but to join once the UK decided to join. Its not a coincidence Ireland is not part of schengen and as a opt out the same as the UK, if a Hard border is going to exist it wont be with the UK it will be enforced by the Republic of Ireland at her frontiers with the EU

 

 

[Setton]

9 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

Your not loving it i can tell from your post.

Oh, am I not? Thanks for clearing that up for me. Guess that means I haven't spent all day laughing after all then.

Actually, this is exactly the outcome I was hoping for (minus DUP involvement, I'll admit). Corbyn's secure as leader, there's a genuine 2 party system on the horizon again, the Tories won't be able to press ahead with their more extreme policies and either Brexit is a success or the Tories will suffer the consequences.

Quote

i did warn you Labour supporters you wouldn't be happy on the morning of June 9th. Next people will be starting to talk about another election in the Autumn. some people cannot except defeat and when it comes to political ideals  they are in the minority and once again on the wrong side of History.

I hope not. Like I've said above, I'm happy to see the Tories attempt to make this work now.

Quote

 

Tories, 318 seats.

DUP, 10 seats.

Tory, & DUP combined, 328.

Labour, Lib Dems, Greens, SNP combined. 313.

Who'd win in a commons vote.

 

You're forgetting Plaid Cymru, the speaker and 1 independent. They might not vote against the government but they can't be relied on for support either. And, as I said, it relies on every tory MP voting in line with the party. I'll give you a little concession, Sinn Fein don't take their seats so minus their 7 means the Tory + DUP working majority is 5. 

That means to guarantee passing anything, they need can only afford 4 rebels. Take Brexit for example. If you were a Tory MP in a strongly remain seat, would you vote for a hard brexit?

Quote

Dont worry about Ireland, if the UK gets a bad deal from the EU or No deal, Ireland will be Leaving the EU in much the same way they had no choice but to join once the UK decided to join. Its not a coincidence Ireland is not part of schengen and as a opt out the same as the UK, if a Hard border is going to exist it wont be with the UK it will be enforced by the Republic of Ireland at her frontiers with the EU

Whether accurate or not, that's just speculation on your part. It won't be enough to convince the DUP to abandon their own stance just to help out the Tories.

[Space Commander Travis]

Has the department of Putting a Brave Face on Things tried yet to explain to us how the Coalition of - oh no sorry, not a Coalition of anything, coalitions are bad things, the Alliance of Parties that share Common Values with the forward looking and progressive DUP is yet another triumph for Ms. May's unprecedentedly successful campaign?

[Space Commander Travis]

10 minutes ago, Setton said:

Actually, this is exactly the outcome I was hoping for (minus DUP involvement, I'll admit).

I think that's the icing on the cake that hammers the final nail into the coffin* for the argument the Department for Putting a Brave Face on Things have tried to put forward that this is really a triumphant victory for Ms.May and shows how the utterly defeated M. Corbyn should resign immediately. It shows just how desperate she is to cling to power. 

 

(* this was brought to you by the Department of Confused Metaphors (just down the corridor from the Department for Putting a Brave Face on Things.) 

[stevewinn]

2 minutes ago, Setton said:

Oh, am I not? Thanks for clearing that up for me. Guess that means I haven't spent all day laughing after all then.

Actually, this is exactly the outcome I was hoping for (minus DUP involvement, I'll admit). Corbyn's secure as leader, there's a genuine 2 party system on the horizon again, the Tories won't be able to press ahead with their more extreme policies and either Brexit is a success or the Tories will suffer the consequences.

I hope not. Like I've said above, I'm happy to see the Tories attempt to make this work now.

You're forgetting Plaid Cymru, the speaker and 1 independent. They might not vote against the government but they can't be relied on for support either. And, as I said, it relies on every tory MP voting in line with the party. I'll give you a little concession, Sinn Fein don't take their seats so minus their 7 means the Tory + DUP working majority is 5. 

That means to guarantee passing anything, they need can only afford 4 rebels. Take Brexit for example. If you were a Tory MP in a strongly remain seat, would you vote for a hard brexit?

Whether accurate or not, that's just speculation on your part. It won't be enough to convince the DUP to abandon their own stance just to help out the Tories.

No, believe me Setton your gutted. Its called denial 

I did not forget Plaid, SF, they are an irrelevance. You forget to mention Labour have many of their own rebels, which includes the entire Labour Parliamentary Party still bristling with Anti-Corbyn members, that's why their is a strong possibility labour will split or oust Corbyn between now and 2022.   261 seats is a poor performance, he didn't win the election. Therefore Corbyn didn't do enough to convince the voters that he should be PM. I thought Labour existed to be elected to Government not mere opposition. How many elections have they now lost?  3 on the bounce. I've lost count. by my reckoning it could possibly be 12 years as opposition.

plenty of twists and turns ahead for both parties.