Theism and Atheism Vs Agnosticism

[markdohle]

7 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I think this is well said. I wonder, do you think it can be measured, in how we each believe or don't believe, in our behaviors and actions within ourselves and to others? 

 

I do believe that faith has to be deepened, if not it stays shallow or ceases to be faith at all.  Unless we are 'out of control' and some are, I do believe that what we do does point to what we actually believe......you judge a tree by its fruits.

peace
mark

[XenoFish]

50 minutes ago, markdohle said:

I do believe that faith has to be deepened, if not it stays shallow or ceases to be faith at all.  Unless we are 'out of control' and some are, I do believe that what we do does point to what we actually believe......you judge a tree by its fruits.

peace
mark

Why do you think this?

Plus does it have to be your brand of faith or any spiritual belief/paradigm? 

I'm honestly curious. As I once had faith in more spiritual things I could never really figure out why. So you as a believer might educate me to your perspective as why faith is important and if there is any real carry over in life because of it. Some people take there beliefs too far and end up "strange". 

[markdohle]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Why do you think this?

Plus does it have to be your brand of faith or any spiritual belief/paradigm? 

I'm honestly curious. As I once had faith in more spiritual things I could never really figure out why. So you as a believer might educate me to your perspective as why faith is important and if there is any real carry over in life because of it. Some people take there beliefs too far and end up "strange". 

 

I put no limits on how God works in each life.....anything that is important for an individual needs to be studied and understood.  The more one understands, the less strange they become I believe.  My faith is important because I believe that the Risen Lord is a reality.  Others from other paths need to follow their consciences and deepen their faith as well.  Christians do not own God, no copyright is possible.  Christ Jesus came for all men and identifies with all men and women. Atheist and agnostics are also obliged to seek a deeper understanding of their beliefs.....to the shame of many believers, they actually do.  Perhaps it is because they are a minority and have to face plenty of prejudices.

Peace
mark

[XenoFish]

5 minutes ago, markdohle said:

I put no limits on how God works in each life.....anything that is important for an individual needs to be studied and understood.  The more one understands, the less strange they become I believe.  My faith is important because I believe that the Risen Lord is a reality.  Others from other paths need to follow their consciences and deepen their faith as well.  Christians do not own God, no copyright is possible.  Christ Jesus came for all men and identifies with all men and women. Atheist and agnostics are also obliged to seek a deeper understanding of their beliefs.....to the shame of many believers, they actually do.  Perhaps it is because they are a minority and have to face plenty of prejudices.

Peace
mark

But what of the man who searched for the eternal and only found themselves? A man who push through all the boundaries of what he thought he knew and found no gods, no angels, no demons, no bidding spirits, only the sounds of his own voice. Echoing into the void, alone. And in that solitude found that he was the only spirit, in conscious, and only chaos before him. What of that man. Even crying deeply for god to say a word and yet met with only silence. Trapped within the cycle of life in the waking world and the abstract inner reality, a prisoner that only death itself can free. What of that man?

Edited May 10, 2017 by XenoFish

[markdohle]

9 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

But what of the man who searched for the eternal and only found themselves? A man who push through all the boundaries of what he thought he knew and found no gods, no angels, no demons, no bidding spirits, only the sounds of his own voice. Echoing into the void, alone. And in that solitude found that he was the only spirit, in conscious, and only chaos before him. What of that man. Even crying deeply for god to say a word and yet met with only silence. Trapped within the cycle of life in the waking world and the abstract inner reality, a prisoner that only death itself can free. What of that man?

 

 

That man has found God.  Jesus said, those who seek will find because they are open to the truth.   On the Cross Jesus prayed "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me!"  A prayer of deep pain, but Psalm is also a Psalm of faith and hope as well.  The reality of God has nothing to do with one's present inner struggles, doubt, lack of faith, it is a given.  So is God's love.  You are seeking my friend, never give that up.

Peace
Mark

Edited May 10, 2017 by markdohle

[markdohle]

6 minutes ago, markdohle said:

double post, don't know how that happens, I know that I did not do it......well I think so

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2017 by markdohle

[XenoFish]

Just now, markdohle said:

That man has found God.  Jesus said, those who seek will find because they are open to the truth.   On the Cross Jesus prayed "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me!"  A prayer of deep pain, but Psalm is also a Psalm of faith and hope as well.  The reality of God has nothing to do with one's present inner struggles, doubt, lack of faith, it is a given.  So is God's love.  You are seeking my friend, never give that up.

Peace
Mark

A paradox perhaps. Faith without faith, belief without belief. Finding god yet finding no one. The Finite Infinity. A most assured belief to live confidently knowing that all things work out in the end. Meaningful meaninglessness. The atheist believer. No path as path, to simply live for the enjoyment of life.

[markdohle]

Just now, XenoFish said:

A paradox perhaps. Faith without faith, belief without belief. Finding god yet finding no one. The Finite Infinity. A most assured belief to live confidently knowing that all things work out in the end. Meaningful meaninglessness. The atheist believer. No path as path, to simply live for the enjoyment of life.

 

To live for the seeking of truth.  To live just for enjoyment I believe leads to a deep inner emptiness. 

Peace
Mark

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, markdohle said:

To live for the seeking of truth.  To live just for enjoyment I believe leads to a deep inner emptiness. 

Peace
Mark

Empty thy cup so that it may be filled.

[markdohle]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Empty thy cup so that it may be filled.

There is always paradox at work in our lives my friend.....

Peace
mark

[+Nuclear Wessel]

3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

But what of the man who searched for the eternal and only found themselves?

I sought for strength from the eternal at one point in my life and then realized that the strength came from within the whole time. 

[Davros of Skaro]

20 hours ago, markdohle said:

I understand your position, my friend, like you, it is hard for me to accept anything outside my own belief system. 

Oh contraire. All I need is evidence. Pleading, confirmation bias, and wishful thinking is not it.

Quote

There are literally millions of people walking around who have had NDEs from all belief systems and that includes atheist. 

The critical factor is that all of us have a fallible Brain.

"In an article in the Atlantic last December, Sacks explains that the reason hallucinations seem so real “is that they deploy the very same systems in the brain that actual perceptions do. When one hallucinates voices, the auditory pathways are activated; when one hallucinates a face, the fusiform face area, normally used to perceive and identify faces in the environment, is stimulated.” Sacks concludes that “the one most plausible hypothesis in Dr. Alexander's case, then, is that his NDE occurred not during his coma, but as he was surfacing from the coma and his cortex was returning to full function. It is curious that he does not allow this obvious and natural explanation, but instead insists on a supernatural one.”

The reason people turn to supernatural explanations is that the mind abhors a vacuum of explanation. Because we do not yet have a fully natural explanation for mind and consciousness, people turn to supernatural explanations to fill the void. But what is more likely: That Alexander's NDE was a real trip to heaven and all these other hallucinations are the product of neural activity only? Or that all such experiences are mediated by the brain but seem real to each experiencer? To me, this evidence is proof of hallucination, not heaven."

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-near-death-experience-isnt-proof-heaven/

Quote

I doubt bigfoot has had that many sighting ;-)..

Yet you would jump up and down if it was a Jesus, or Mary sighting by a kid.

Quote

I don't expect you to ever to believe in any God or an afterlife, you are convinced. 

I challenge you to find a qoute by me saying that "There is no God", or "There is no afterlife. 

Quote

Even if there are experiences that people have that you think are impossible, they still have them, and they are changed by them....and that includes atheist

It's possible to have a NDE, and believe it as if it was not a product of a fallible mind.

People change converting to Islam, or Buddhism. Are those true too.

Quote

 

(http://www.near-death.com/religion/atheism.html).  Maybe they are, but people still have them.   Thanks for your reply ;-).

Remember when you finished giving a talk once and a voice in your head said something like "This is not true"?

What's the likely cause that you believe?

1) An evil spirit was trying to stir doubt in you.

2) A subconscious thought was trying to form as a conscious thought. Your compartmentalized belief blocked it. Instead of dissipating it got thrown into your audible neural pathway surfacing as an hallucination having nothing to do with an actual soundwave heard.

Edited May 11, 2017 by davros of skaro
Link

[Mr Walker]

7 hours ago, XenoFish said:

But what of the man who searched for the eternal and only found themselves? A man who push through all the boundaries of what he thought he knew and found no gods, no angels, no demons, no bidding spirits, only the sounds of his own voice. Echoing into the void, alone. And in that solitude found that he was the only spirit, in conscious, and only chaos before him. What of that man. Even crying deeply for god to say a word and yet met with only silence. Trapped within the cycle of life in the waking world and the abstract inner reality, a prisoner that only death itself can free. What of that man?

That man needs a new construct  The old one is very clearly failing him, and not meeting his needs as a human being. 

How can anyone,  who has found themselves, not also have found the eternal, which exists with a mind.? The human mind alone/ by itself, can travel and explore all eternity, of both time and space,  and will never have enough time to complete the exploration.  

 How can a man, who truly knows himself, not also know the;   gods, angels,  demons, etc which exist as a part of his self awareness?

What man, who truly understands the nature of self, and other, can EVER  feel disconnected, alone or   in a void?

While one can select solitude for comfort, we exist in a universe of  self aware consciousness and are thus NEVER truly alone.

Our own self awareness connects us to everything else; both the things we know from close at hand, and the things we can imagine existing  on the other side of the galaxy. (just to take the other extreme)    

What man will not shape chaos into forms which please and comfort him, and sustain him, and those he loves?.

No man with a mind is a prisoner, and there is nothing which can confine such a man. Even locked in stone walls, by iron bars, he is free.

 (and yes this applies to women, equally. i am using man as human kind here) 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Frank Merton]

25 minutes ago, davros of skaro said:

Oh contraire. All I need is evidence. Pleading, confirmation bias, and wishful thinking is not it.

The critical factor is that all of us have a fallible Brain.

"In an article in the Atlantic last December, Sacks explains that the reason hallucinations seem so real “is that they deploy the very same systems in the brain that actual perceptions do. When one hallucinates voices, the auditory pathways are activated; when one hallucinates a face, the fusiform face area, normally used to perceive and identify faces in the environment, is stimulated.” Sacks concludes that “the one most plausible hypothesis in Dr. Alexander's case, then, is that his NDE occurred not during his coma, but as he was surfacing from the coma and his cortex was returning to full function. It is curious that he does not allow this obvious and natural explanation, but instead insists on a supernatural one.”

The reason people turn to supernatural explanations is that the mind abhors a vacuum of explanation. Because we do not yet have a fully natural explanation for mind and consciousness, people turn to supernatural explanations to fill the void. But what is more likely: That Alexander's NDE was a real trip to heaven and all these other hallucinations are the product of neural activity only? Or that all such experiences are mediated by the brain but seem real to each experiencer? To me, this evidence is proof of hallucination, not heaven."

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-near-death-experience-isnt-proof-heaven/

Yet you would jump up and down if it was a Jesus, or Mary sighting by a kid.

I challenge you to find a qoute by me saying that "There is no God", or "There is no afterlife. 

It's possible to have a NDE, and believe it as if it was not a product of a fallible mind.

People change converting to Islam, or Buddhism. Are those true too.

Remember when you finished giving a talk once and a voice in your head said something like "This is not true"?

What's the likely cause that you believe?

1) An evil spirit was trying to stir doubt in you.

2) A subconscious thought was trying to form as a conscious thought. Your compartmentalized belief blocked it. Instead of dissipating it got thrown into your audible neural pathway surfacing as an hallucination having nothing to do with an actual soundwave heard.

Regarding the reality of hallucinations, I appreciate the information; it explains a few things.  The one thing that I would like explained is that when I hallucinate, it is always the same lamp being the same person.  There is no variation, and it is so stereotyped as to be a recording, except different (albeit in similar vein) things are said.  I think I have a "catch" somewhere in my brain.

Still, the reality is certainly there -- so much so that I think it just be my mother and I am respectful -- even though I know better.

[jmccr8]

4 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

I sought for strength from the eternal at one point in my life and then realized that the strength came from within the whole time. 

I guess that because I don't see god in a religious sense I believe that god made me to be the answer to my doubts, fears, etal through the ability to think constructively and abstractly. I can believe in myself and learning and having challenges is my experience of god if I perceive god as everything. I know it sounds weird but it's just my way of living each day.

jmccr8

[eight bits]

Frank

Quote

There is no variation, and it is so stereotyped as to be a recording, except different (albeit in similar vein) things are said.  I think I have a "catch" somewhere in my brain.

For what it's worth (which is less for you because it's coming from me), that could be word-for-word what somebody with a kind of recurrent dream would report. Dream content and hallucination content are known to be similar, maybe the underlying mechanisms are, too.

The report is not the "usual thing," but it is common enough to be recognized as "Oh, another report about that." If this were the dream board, I'd ask you whether you like the recurrence or not. If you do, then relax, there's no special "catch" in this, go with it. If you don't, then do something different when it happens next time. If it were mine, then I'd ask a question. There are lots of possibilities; maybe "Do I know you?" is a good ice-breaker.

davros

Quote

But what is more likely: That Alexander's NDE was a real trip to heaven and all these other hallucinations are the product of neural activity only?

If you're going to ask a question, then you do well to think about how it looks from the other side, the perspective of whomever you might be asking.

This where all the mumbo-jumbo about "neural pathways" and "brain chemicals" and "neocortices..." gets in the way. Your question isn't about the wetware that's trying to solve the problem, it's about the problem itself.

Example: I have a right triangle. The two shorter sides are 3cm and 4cm respectively. How long is the longest side? The answer is 5 cm, not because of anything in your neocortex, but because of what a right triangle is.

The math of your question is this: You and mark have two competing hypotheses. This is a special case (= most problems are harder than this). If hallucination were true, it would completely explain the report. Equally, if heaven were true, the trip actually happened, then that would also completely explain the report. The evidence, the reports about Alexander, cannot decide between heaven and hallucination.

What's left then? With or without the evidence, how inherently likely are hallucinations, and how inherently likely are trips to heaven? And there, brother davros, is where you and mark disagree. Not about the neocortex, not about the holy dopamine fix, but about the prior likelihood of the hypotheses as you individually assess them.

What "is" more likely? One is more likely to you, the other is more likely to him. How do you resolve disagreements like that about uncertain contingencies? Find evidence that does distinguish between his view and yours, and see which way it turns out. (Actually, mark thinks there is also another way to know contingent facts, but you needn't concede that to him and wouldn't anyway.)

What do you do in the meantime? Celebrate diversity. Lol.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

16 hours ago, markdohle said:

I do believe that faith has to be deepened, if not it stays shallow or ceases to be faith at all.  Unless we are 'out of control' and some are, I do believe that what we do does point to what we actually believe......you judge a tree by its fruits.

peace
mark

  Yes, I agree.   

15 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Why do you think this?

Plus does it have to be your brand of faith or any spiritual belief/paradigm? 

I'm honestly curious. As I once had faith in more spiritual things I could never really figure out why. So you as a believer might educate me to your perspective as why faith is important and if there is any real carry over in life because of it. Some people take there beliefs too far and end up "strange". 

I think that is a very good question. Makes me wonder the difference between those, like myself, who have their own spiritual beliefs to encourage them, and those who follow something with set tenets and such to follow. 

13 hours ago, markdohle said:

I put no limits on how God works in each life.....anything that is important for an individual needs to be studied and understood.  The more one understands, the less strange they become I believe.  My faith is important because I believe that the Risen Lord is a reality.  Others from other paths need to follow their consciences and deepen their faith as well.  Christians do not own God, no copyright is possible.  Christ Jesus came for all men and identifies with all men and women. Atheist and agnostics are also obliged to seek a deeper understanding of their beliefs.....to the shame of many believers, they actually do.  Perhaps it is because they are a minority and have to face plenty of prejudices.

Peace
mark

I first want to say, I don't know how Atheists seek a deeper understanding of something they don't believe in. But, that could be me, and I feel I will have some responses that will answer that.  But, I wonder at, and feel, that I think we all feel prejudices at some points in our lives. Some more than others. I think, that also deepens those who are are stronger in their beliefs, because I seem to see and think, that even in mainstream and in unorthodox beliefs, no matter of any amount of prejudices could sway someone who truly believes from what they believe. They just know in their heart what is true to them. I think even that is built on instinct to a point. I just think it's the level how mainstream their belief and the amount of the prejudices would have them hide it or show it. I don't think any would behave in a contradict manner, just not show it. In which, it seems I'm saying the same thing like in your last sentences in your post here. 

I just wonder, if it's a shame when some hide within it.

13 hours ago, XenoFish said:

But what of the man who searched for the eternal and only found themselves? A man who push through all the boundaries of what he thought he knew and found no gods, no angels, no demons, no bidding spirits, only the sounds of his own voice. Echoing into the void, alone. And in that solitude found that he was the only spirit, in conscious, and only chaos before him. What of that man. Even crying deeply for god to say a word and yet met with only silence. Trapped within the cycle of life in the waking world and the abstract inner reality, a prisoner that only death itself can free. What of that man?

Isn't that what a lot go through? Doesn't that make one grow?

13 hours ago, markdohle said:

That man has found God.  Jesus said, those who seek will find because they are open to the truth.   On the Cross Jesus prayed "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me!"  A prayer of deep pain, but Psalm is also a Psalm of faith and hope as well.  The reality of God has nothing to do with one's present inner struggles, doubt, lack of faith, it is a given.  So is God's love.  You are seeking my friend, never give that up.

Peace
Mark

To seek, is part of the belief behavior?

13 hours ago, XenoFish said:

A paradox perhaps. Faith without faith, belief without belief. Finding god yet finding no one. The Finite Infinity. A most assured belief to live confidently knowing that all things work out in the end. Meaningful meaninglessness. The atheist believer. No path as path, to simply live for the enjoyment of life.

Believe it or not, I have had that, plenty. I sometimes have to ride on that until I find it again.

Sometimes, I find that ok, it forks into another path that elates me.  

10 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

I sought for strength from the eternal at one point in my life and then realized that the strength came from within the whole time. 

For some reason, after reading this post, I kept hearing and wanting to quote Spock's "There are always possibilites" line. You understand, right?       

6 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

On 5/10/2017 at 5:38 AM, markdohle said:

I understand your position, my friend, like you, it is hard for me to accept anything outside my own belief system. 

Oh contraire. All I need is evidence. Pleading, confirmation bias, and wishful thinking is not it.

I think it should be noted, that everyone is different, and it's up to them or it ends up subjectively showing them in one way or another how they meet the spiritual challenges. If it's agreed, that it hasn't reached out to effect negatively on others, and it's just within them, then that's ok.      

6 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

The critical factor is that all of us have a fallible Brain.

"In an article in the Atlantic last December, Sacks explains that the reason hallucinations seem so real “is that they deploy the very same systems in the brain that actual perceptions do. When one hallucinates voices, the auditory pathways are activated; when one hallucinates a face, the fusiform face area, normally used to perceive and identify faces in the environment, is stimulated.” Sacks concludes that “the one most plausible hypothesis in Dr. Alexander's case, then, is that his NDE occurred not during his coma, but as he was surfacing from the coma and his cortex was returning to full function. It is curious that he does not allow this obvious and natural explanation, but instead insists on a supernatural one.”

The reason people turn to supernatural explanations is that the mind abhors a vacuum of explanation. Because we do not yet have a fully natural explanation for mind and consciousness, people turn to supernatural explanations to fill the void. But what is more likely: That Alexander's NDE was a real trip to heaven and all these other hallucinations are the product of neural activity only? Or that all such experiences are mediated by the brain but seem real to each experiencer? To me, this evidence is proof of hallucination, not heaven."

I feel that this should be duly noted.  And that's true, I don't think we can 100% rely entirely on our brains for total recall or anything else. If we are pretty much sure, cool. As one who received a mild concussion in a 1989 car accident, and finding out through out the years of events that I forgot and agreed it has happened by being reminded by others, it's amazing what my brain is capable of. And I often reflect on the comparing what is the possibility and what my brain will do to me. 

6 hours ago, Frank Merton said:

Regarding the reality of hallucinations, I appreciate the information; it explains a few things.  The one thing that I would like explained is that when I hallucinate, it is always the same lamp being the same person.  There is no variation, and it is so stereotyped as to be a recording, except different (albeit in similar vein) things are said.  I think I have a "catch" somewhere in my brain.

Still, the reality is certainly there -- so much so that I think it just be my mother and I am respectful -- even though I know better.

Good points, I feel, Frank.    Even if it's something to acknowledge just within one's self.

5 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

I guess that because I don't see god in a religious sense I believe that god made me to be the answer to my doubts, fears, etal through the ability to think constructively and abstractly. I can believe in myself and learning and having challenges is my experience of god if I perceive god as everything. I know it sounds weird but it's just my way of living each day.

jmccr8

Niice! I sometimes feel that I was given this gift of my belief, by a higher power, and if it's the mainstream God, so be it.  

 

[Only_]

6 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Niice! I sometimes feel that I was given this gift of my belief, by a higher power, and if it's the mainstream God, so be it.  

 

A god who offers gifts with one hand and pain, suffering and pestilence with the other is no true God.

Edited May 11, 2017 by TruthSeeker_

[+Liquid Gardens]

11 hours ago, eight bits said:

The math of your question is this: You and mark have two competing hypotheses. This is a special case (= most problems are harder than this). If hallucination were true, it would completely explain the report. Equally, if heaven were true, the trip actually happened, then that would also completely explain the report. The evidence, the reports about Alexander, cannot decide between heaven and hallucination.

What's left then? With or without the evidence, how inherently likely are hallucinations, and how inherently likely are trips to heaven? And there, brother davros, is where you and mark disagree. Not about the neocortex, not about the holy dopamine fix, but about the prior likelihood of the hypotheses as you individually assess them.

What "is" more likely? One is more likely to you, the other is more likely to him.

It seems though that this isn't strictly a math problem, it's more an application of math.  To say that different people assess different likelihoods to questions doesn't seem very fruitful, the question I think refers to an objective likelihood.  Lots of gamblers who play craps and the slots will provide some intricate theories about why they are sometimes more likely to hit because the dice or table or machine are 'hot' or 'due to pay'; that is interesting, and I like indulging in that kind of thinking too, but it doesn't have squat to do with the actual likelihood and is usually plain false.

Davros seems to me to be asking a perfectly cromulent question that needs no embiggening.  (thank you Simpsons)  Your flow to me takes a little jump that I'm not getting, "With or without the evidence, how inherently likely are hallucinations, and how inherently likely are trips to heaven?"  I'm having trouble parsing that, I'm not sure what it means to discuss 'likelihoods' 'without evidence', although I guess we do it when we apply it to things like 'who wins in a fight, Darth Vader or Spiderman?'.  With evidence, this question has a pretty clear answer: hallucinations are inherently more likely than trips to heaven.  That's not just 'to me', anyone can look into it themselves, hallucinations are just plain more frequent than claimed trips to heaven, NDE or not.  Hallucinations are something that exists, it's been firmly established, you are the right hookup + 1 hour away from having one voluntarily if you so desired or were in doubt.  If we want to just focus on the evaluation of likelihood within the context of an NDE, wow, some of the physiological effects of near-death just happen to cause hallucinations in non-near-death situations too.  Like not breathing.

I agree that the evidence cannot decide between heaven and hallucination, but for that matter it can't decide between a quick trip to the astral plane or the Twilight Zone working in its Serlingian ways or Professor X exercising his powers.  An actual trip to heaven explains the report no better than The Matrix.  Out of all those and endless other explanations that totally explain the experience, we have good evidence that precisely one of them even exists.

[jmccr8]

2 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

A god who offers gifts with one hand and pain, suffering and pestilence with the other is no true God.

That only works for people that believe that god has a personality and within the religious concept of god. I don't think that god gets angry and punishes people, people punish people  by teaching that god will take retribution. To me god just is just like I am or that rock or tree or other people are. We are the gift and how we use ourselves and interact with the world around us determines the good or bad. I can't blame god when things aren't right I am the one that has the options to do better or worse I have to be responsible for it just like you and you and you and you too, to me religion confuses our responsibilities to ourselves and each other.

jmccr8

[eight bits]

LG

Quote

To say that different people assess different likelihoods to questions doesn't seem very fruitful,

Maybe not. Don't shoot the messenger, kay?

Quote

the question I think refers to an objective likelihood.

Yes. The two opposing hypotheses, if true, would explain what is observed (the report) equally well. That's probably objective, or nearly so. Thus, each person's posterior plausibility for each hypothesis is the same or nearly the same as their prior plausibility - that's based on "what makes sense to them" instead of evidence. It's subjective.

Quote

but it doesn't have squat to do with the actual likelihood and is usually plain false.

Probably. Different problem, though.

Look, I read through your post. I'm not the one making the report, and I'm not the one interpreting the report as a trip to heaven.

Davros seemed interested in changing the other poster's mind. I'm not, because I know I can't. Neither you nor davros nor I can change the other poster's mind here: we lack evidence that the other poster hasn't already considered +/- similar evidence while arriving at his estimate of the plausibility that trips to heaven are a real thing.

Of course, he lacks evidence that we haven't already considered while reaching conclusions opposite to his. That's an impasse; an embiggened one.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

7 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

A god who offers gifts with one hand and pain, suffering and pestilence with the other is no true God.

 

 

What exactly are you trying to tell me? I feel, considering it's subjective and that I did base my earlier post that you replied to as my feeling, my opinion, it's up to me, how I see it as God or or higher power. Your subjective opinion is just that, a subjective opinion.

 

[Mr Walker]

8 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

A god who offers gifts with one hand and pain, suffering and pestilence with the other is no true God.

And why do you assume that the pain  suffering and pestilence are either the product of such a god or its desire for us ?

WE create these things in our lives (and in the lives of our fellow human beings,) They are  not god(s) work or creation, and thus we are responsible for them, and for eliminating them, not a god. .

 A God may chose to help us, but cannot do it "himself",  for obvious reasons.

How does a god eliminate greed, or hate, or anger, and thus violence and inequality, without making humans into something NON human ?

Only by teaching us to change ourselves is this possible.  Humans are quite capable of living equitably, and in peace, and creating a paradise for all on earth.

Many "gods" and their human spokesmen  have tried to impart this wisdom and knowledge to us, but too many humans refuse to listen or to act.  

Edited May 12, 2017 by Mr Walker

[Davros of Skaro]

22 hours ago, eight bits said:

What do you do in the meantime? Celebrate diversity. Lol.

I'm fighting back the spread of bad ideas, not unlike adding a bit of chlorine in a water supply.

You being the foil I come to understand your motivation. Everyone likes to be clever, but in turn being a refuge to what is not is unbecoming. 

Mark

Not all atheists are the same, and belief even though if personality changing is not proof of belief. 

Frank

I feel everyone has a touch of OCD. If I bump my one elbow, I'm compulsed to bump the other. This, and your own psychological make up is probably the root to your situation? 

[Frank Merton]

6 minutes ago, davros of skaro said:

I'm fighting back the spread of bad ideas, not unlike adding a bit of chlorine in a water supply.

You being the foil I come to understand your motivation. Everyone likes to be clever, but in turn being a refuge to what is not is unbecoming. 

Mark

Not all atheists are the same, and belief even though if personality changing is not proof of belief. 

Frank

I feel everyone has a touch of OCD. If I bump my one elbow, I'm compulsed to bump the other. This, and your own psychological make up is probably the root to your situation? 

First, I wish you were on more.

I don't think my schizophrenic tendencies has anything to do with my situation in life.  It's incidental and I probably wouldn't have mentioned it except to maybe help counter some extravagant claims that were being made.  I am by local standards comfortable and wealthy.   The only problems with my health even have been pretty much cured.  Last time my doctor took a good listen he said he could hear no difference between my heart and one of someone much younger who had never had problems.