Mr Walker Posted May 9, 2017 #76 Share Posted May 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, Frank Merton said: I don't know is not and never will be a dead end. It is a starting place. If one assumes one knows, then one is at the dead end. No The first is simply not true. By ITSELF, a statement of "i dont know" is one of defeat and an ending Only when we go on from there to say, "But i intend to look at this further." does a new path open up Actual knowledge is not a dead end either, as knowledge is an expanding sphere. As you gain more knowldge the surface of the sphere, where it interfaces with what you do not know, grows larger, opening up more possibilities Even an assumption of knowldge is only a beginning, as all knowledge forms a foundation or scaffold for further, deeper, or connected, knowledge. If i know my three times tables that means i don't have to work on them anymore and that particular search for knowledge is completed, but the y lead into other forms of maths, from harder tables, up to advanced mathematical theory. Saying "I cant tell you the answer to 9 times 3, because i don't know my tables." is the end of that discussion UNTIL the tables are learned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dhurfjooydig Posted May 9, 2017 #77 Share Posted May 9, 2017 46 minutes ago, Mr Walker said: BY itself, " I dont know" is a dead end, which produces nothing constructive, and no way forward. It then requires a further thought of imagination or creativity to move past accepting that you do not know, to look for answers. If there IS no data to provide knowledge, then only imagination, creativity, logic, and extrapolation remain "I don't know" is a fertile space ... there's potential and possibility in uncertainty. Belief is a calcification of certainty ... a barrier against possibility. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted May 9, 2017 #78 Share Posted May 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said: "I don't know" is a fertile space ... there's potential and possibility in uncertainty. Belief is a calcification of certainty ... a barrier against possibility. "I do not know' is not a statement of uncertainty but certainty. Otherwise i agree with you. Given that i've lost track of how/why this debate began i will leave it a t that, except to point out that if a person's final comment is " i don't know.", that is not much use to anyone They MUST go on to offer some other suggestion, to be constructive. This is often the additional statement. " I do not know, but i believe...". or " I do not know, but in my opinion.....". Going back to my point that belief and opinion fill gaps where knowledge does not, and cannot, exist. eg " What happens when I die daddy?" " I dont know, but in my opinion......" "Why is there a law against killing, mummy? " " i dont know, but i believe it is because........" Stop with the first part of either statement and you add nothing to the child's knowledge or understanding of its world. Add the second part, and a t least you give it something to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted May 9, 2017 #79 Share Posted May 9, 2017 6 hours ago, Frank Merton said: I find nothing uplifting about religion. Most serious religions are bigoted, closed-minded, self-righteous and judgmental types. Now there is something very uplifting about the idea of a beneficent God, but that is a different question than religion. Consider religion as just a piece of spiritual software. Not all programs are beneficial to all people. There are good Christians and bad Christians. Someone might benefit from prayer and another meditation or even spell-craft. Yet there is always that "Gone to far" aspect of any belief system. I have no problem with spirituality which is why I don't get irritated by pagans. As most of them are more spiritual than religious. Depending on the view it can almost be a form of agnostic spirituality, which seems like an oddly paired set of terms but mostly in means the pagan is focused on life. Instead of keeping their eyes to the sky they look around them. I think Stubbly and Greenman could answer better than I could. From my perspective though, spirituality can generate hope/optimism even when in the greatest doubt. Which can lead to a better level of confidence in handling a situation. Again this is subjective and it also depends on the situation as well. Structured religions do not really have the spirituality edge. It's just a metaphysical government really. Do this, don't do that. Act this way, dress this way, The worst thing a religion can do is give people a superiority complex, while this effect isn't universal among all believers it sure get's close sometimes. Our people are better than those people because "God" said so. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbly_Dooright Posted May 9, 2017 #80 Share Posted May 9, 2017 9 hours ago, XenoFish said: 19 hours ago, Stubbly_Dooright said: I often feel that way with all beliefs and religions. I often wonder why I even post an argument on things anymore. Seems on some deeper level pointless. Well, if I'm getting your point to what I said, you made a good point about not able to prove any aspects of religion and such for anyone. And that's the case that I understand about your point of not caring. It's understandable, and those who would want you to care, can't do anything about it because of how they really cannot prove it positively to anyone, which means you too. And the thought of what ever is on a deeper level, it's not pointless, but it is subjective. If some feel that they can 'encourage' others to feel that way, how the hell are they going to do that? Just as you feel strongly of what you feel, it's yours and no one else can can get to it, because of not knowing what you feel and what they cannot prove. ( I hope I'm making sense, and that I understood you.) And I'm a bit confused. Do you feel it's pointless to post an argument, because some don't see it despite it being obvious or they don't want to see it? ( Again, I hope I understood you. *cringe* 9 hours ago, Grandpa Greenman said: That is because you don't care whether or not there is a god, so it becomes a pointless argument. My thing is, I want to know how it all works and how it all came in to being. To say god did it is just to simple, plue if there is a high power running the show he must be one first class dick to let people suffer like they do sometimes. It is much easier for me to believe there isn't a higher power running the show or one that is aware of us anymore, than we are aware of our gut bacteria. Ah, I see. And I think I understand. Now, I feel, it is a little complicated, if indeed there is a higher power and 'allows' this all to happen. I have feelings sometimes of it's 'limits' and that it's a partnership between it and us. But, I do feel that is what I believe and not push onto anyone else. I also do feel that your points make sense too. 9 hours ago, XenoFish said: I want to know how it all came to be but I just can't use the god excuse. Even if there is a higher power running the show it might not even be sentient. Something that doesn't play favorites or chooses only one select group of "special people". That part has never made any sense to me. Me neither. I don't understand a religion that shouts love for all, but some were chosen. Would parents want to only choose certain offspring to save to all of their children they 'love'? 9 hours ago, XenoFish said: I can understand the uplifting aspects of religion from a therapeutic perspective. As a stress reliever, a way to focus the mind, and as a means of feeling a part of something, but there is a very thin line between belief and fanaticism. My problem is people abusing others because of their religious beliefs. I honestly could careless what someone believes on a spiritual level it's that I don't want people harmed because of it. Religion is a lot like a gun. A gun can be used to kill for food or to take a life. Choice is always yours. Also consider how I never go after pagans on here. There's a reason for that. And this is why I think your points should be mentioned. Those that see themselves in this, could see how they are treating others. 2 hours ago, Frank Merton said: I don't know is not and never will be a dead end. It is a starting place. If one assumes one knows, then one is at the dead end. Exactly!!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbly_Dooright Posted May 9, 2017 #81 Share Posted May 9, 2017 11 minutes ago, XenoFish said: Consider religion as just a piece of spiritual software. Not all programs are beneficial to all people. There are good Christians and bad Christians. Someone might benefit from prayer and another meditation or even spell-craft. Yet there is always that "Gone to far" aspect of any belief system. I have no problem with spirituality which is why I don't get irritated by pagans. As most of them are more spiritual than religious. Depending on the view it can almost be a form of agnostic spirituality, which seems like an oddly paired set of terms but mostly in means the pagan is focused on life. Instead of keeping their eyes to the sky they look around them. I think Stubbly and Greenman could answer better than I could. From my perspective though, spirituality can generate hope/optimism even when in the greatest doubt. Which can lead to a better level of confidence in handling a situation. Again this is subjective and it also depends on the situation as well. Structured religions do not really have the spirituality edge. It's just a metaphysical government really. Do this, don't do that. Act this way, dress this way, The worst thing a religion can do is give people a superiority complex, while this effect isn't universal among all believers it sure get's close sometimes. Our people are better than those people because "God" said so. "Consider religion as just a piece of spiritual software." Oh My Gawd!!!! I love that!!! I really love that!!! And the rest of your post rang something within me. Very good post, Xeno!!! (and the record hitting moment of being better than my coffee this morning!! : ) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markdohle Posted May 9, 2017 #82 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, XenoFish said: I want to know how it all came to be but I just can't use the god excuse. Even if there is a higher power running the show it might not even be sentient. Something that doesn't play favorites or chooses only one select group of "special people". That part has never made any sense to me. We are sentient, we live in a universe that is based on laws, and we actually have brains that can understand the Universe, at least in part...points to an infinite intelligence. I doubt God plays favorites. Revelation can only be received at the level the receiver is at. To say that we live in such a universe and think that the 'creator' is not sentient to me is absurd. For others, of course, it is not. Also, from my perspective and from what you write about, you do care very much for what is the truth.....so I think the whole God question is an important question for you....again just my opinion. Writing is a good way to communicate, but without words and gestures, it is hard to really know. peace mark Edited May 9, 2017 by markdohle 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markdohle Posted May 9, 2017 #83 Share Posted May 9, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, XenoFish said: Consider religion as just a piece of spiritual software. Not all programs are beneficial to all people. There are good Christians and bad Christians. Someone might benefit from prayer and another meditation or even spell-craft. Yet there is always that "Gone to far" aspect of any belief system. I have no problem with spirituality which is why I don't get irritated by pagans. As most of them are more spiritual than religious. Depending on the view it can almost be a form of agnostic spirituality, which seems like an oddly paired set of terms but mostly in means the pagan is focused on life. Instead of keeping their eyes to the sky they look around them. I think Stubbly and Greenman could answer better than I could. From my perspective though, spirituality can generate hope/optimism even when in the greatest doubt. Which can lead to a better level of confidence in handling a situation. Again this is subjective and it also depends on the situation as well. Structured religions do not really have the spirituality edge. It's just a metaphysical government really. Do this, don't do that. Act this way, dress this way, The worst thing a religion can do is give people a superiority complex, while this effect isn't universal among all believers it sure get's close sometimes. Our people are better than those people because "God" said so. Actually, this is quite good my friend, thank you. Though your picture.....you need to gain some weight Any system can be taken tooooooooo far, just look at the political climate in the United States.....geez cry me a river!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Peace Mark Edited May 9, 2017 by markdohle 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted May 9, 2017 #84 Share Posted May 9, 2017 Mark you are among the few believers I enjoy conversing with. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted May 9, 2017 #85 Share Posted May 9, 2017 24 minutes ago, markdohle said: We are sentient, we live in a universe that is based on laws, and we actually have brains that can understand the Universe, at least in part...points to an infinite intelligence. I doubt God plays favorites. Revelation can only be received at the level the receiver is at. To say that we live in such a universe and think that the 'creator' is not sentient to me is absurd. For others, of course, it is not. Also, from my perspective and from what you write about, you do care very much for what is the truth.....so I think the whole God question is an important question for you....again just my opinion. Writing is a good way to communicate, but without words and gestures, it is hard to really know. peace mark Its the difference between a personal god and a impersonal god. Even the idea of god not being sentient can be seen as the yet unknown first cause. That the universe wasn't intended it just happened. It's that great mystery. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markdohle Posted May 9, 2017 #86 Share Posted May 9, 2017 6 minutes ago, XenoFish said: Mark you are among the few believers I enjoy conversing with. And I with you, my friend. Peace Mark 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markdohle Posted May 9, 2017 #87 Share Posted May 9, 2017 5 minutes ago, XenoFish said: Its the difference between a personal god and a impersonal god. Even the idea of god not being sentient can be seen as the yet unknown first cause. That the universe wasn't intended it just happened. It's that great mystery. Yes, it is, but I believe the mystery leads to something more, not less. Peace mark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted May 9, 2017 #88 Share Posted May 9, 2017 11 minutes ago, markdohle said: Yes, it is, but I believe the mystery leads to something more, not less. Peace mark Truly a matter of perspective. Maybe the less is more?!? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markdohle Posted May 9, 2017 #89 Share Posted May 9, 2017 1 minute ago, XenoFish said: Truly a matter of perspective. Maybe the less is more?!? LOL, perhaps Peace Mark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted May 9, 2017 #90 Share Posted May 9, 2017 51 minutes ago, markdohle said: We are sentient, we live in a universe that is based on laws, and we actually have brains that can understand the Universe, at least in part...points to an infinite intelligence. We are sentient therefore infinite intelligence.. What? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markdohle Posted May 9, 2017 #91 Share Posted May 9, 2017 7 minutes ago, Rlyeh said: We are sentient therefore infinite intelligence.. What? I believe that to be sentient, conscious, is not an accident. I also doubt that if the universe just happened, and was based on some blind, unintelligent process, is a very big jump to believe that a product of that process would be superior. Also, the one "hard question" is about the nature of consciousness. There are many books on the nature of our 'self-awareness' but really, they are just opinions. It will be interesting to see where this goes if I live long enough. peace mark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted May 9, 2017 #92 Share Posted May 9, 2017 40 minutes ago, markdohle said: I believe that to be sentient, conscious, is not an accident. I also doubt that if the universe just happened, and was based on some blind, unintelligent process, is a very big jump to believe that a product of that process would be superior. Also, the one "hard question" is about the nature of consciousness. There are many books on the nature of our 'self-awareness' but really, they are just opinions. It will be interesting to see where this goes if I live long enough. No matter how superior you think you are, blind unintelligent processes will always have the upper hand. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatus1 Posted May 9, 2017 #93 Share Posted May 9, 2017 I'm a functioning atheist. The only allowance I have for the existence of God, or any any other deity, is mostly a nostalgic romanticism. Being that this is the same place I keep my belief in magic, psychic powers, and various other things I love but would never vote for in a realistic setting, I can comfortably say I am an atheist and not an agnostic. Loving a fantasy does not equate to being uncertain about a reality. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markdohle Posted May 9, 2017 #94 Share Posted May 9, 2017 31 minutes ago, Rlyeh said: No matter how superior you think you are, blind unintelligent processes will always have the upper hand. LOL, Murphy's law times 100. Peace Mark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markdohle Posted May 9, 2017 #95 Share Posted May 9, 2017 15 minutes ago, aquatus1 said: I'm a functioning atheist. The only allowance I have for the existence of God, or any any other deity, is mostly a nostalgic romanticism. Being that this is the same place I keep my belief in magic, psychic powers, and various other things I love but would never vote for in a realistic setting, I can comfortably say I am an atheist and not an agnostic. Loving a fantasy does not equate to being uncertain about a reality. Well, the God question is not a fantasy inquiry. Also, studies are continuing on NDE's, OBE's etc., and are finding support from some men of science. It will be interesting to see how that turns out....but at my age, I am sure I will be dead by then. peace Mark. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nuclear Wessel Posted May 9, 2017 #96 Share Posted May 9, 2017 1 hour ago, markdohle said: Well, the God question is not a fantasy inquiry It certainly does appear to be a fantasy inquiry at this point in time. Quote Also, studies are continuing on NDE's, OBE's etc., and are finding support from some men of science. It will be interesting to see how that turns out....but at my age, I am sure I will be dead by then. What relevance does an NDE or OBE have with the God question? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatus1 Posted May 9, 2017 #97 Share Posted May 9, 2017 1 hour ago, markdohle said: Well, the God question is not a fantasy inquiry. Why not? What are the differentiating properties? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood_Sacrifice Posted May 9, 2017 #98 Share Posted May 9, 2017 1 hour ago, aquatus1 said: Why not? What are the differentiating properties? Fantasy believed as truths by one - Hallucination Fantasy believed as truths by few - Delusion Fantasy believed as truths by millions - Religion There isn't any differentiating property except for numbers ... but the sheer numbers do make religion a separate group from other fantasy beliefs, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markdohle Posted May 9, 2017 #99 Share Posted May 9, 2017 3 hours ago, aquatus1 said: Why not? What are the differentiating properties? I think it depends on the person asking the question. Belief in God allows many to face life without falling into escapes that led to further problems. Drugs, drink, sexual acting out, the will to power, all in order to escape the pain that is our lot in life. It is not about pie in the sky etc., but about understanding that this life is very important, what we become is even more important, and we are responsible for our lives and choices. It is true that freedom is acquired by our choices and inner struggles. We can only grow by facing life as it is and not seeking to run away from the pain the is the lot of all of us in one measure or another. Whatever allows anyone to grow into a deeper humanity is life-giving, if one's faith does that it is certainly not based on some sort of dream world. Granted for some their faith could do that, but it will not last because life happens, distress, sickness, and loss of loved ones.....not to mention the injustices that are committed on a daily basis. For me, atheism is the fantasy and the belief that we simply go to sleep at death is the illusion. Christ Jesus embraced all that happened to him. All of the injustices, the torture, the betrayal and forgave all and he rose from the dead.....fantasy, I believe not.....however, I know that you will think otherwise and think I am living in a fantasy world. Which is OK, we all have to find our way the best way we can. Peace mark 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markdohle Posted May 9, 2017 #100 Share Posted May 9, 2017 2 hours ago, Blood_Sacrifice said: Fantasy believed as truths by one - Hallucination Fantasy believed as truths by few - Delusion Fantasy believed as truths by millions - Religion There isn't any differentiating property except for numbers ... but the sheer numbers do make religion a separate group from other fantasy beliefs, unfortunately. What about political beliefs, or your belief, it is the same thing. We live in a world where we all need to choose and then according to what our consciences tells us and then to live that out. To say that millions live in delusion is a delusion all by itself based on your own interpretation of reality. Peace Mark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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