Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Conspirologist

Theism and Atheism Vs Agnosticism

331 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Sherapy
3 hours ago, Kismit said:

I have to say I identify as Agnostic and I have no idea what this is...

Here is my spin on it. 

I do not believe in a sentient God who meddles in the lives of people, nor do I believe we have set chosen paths, lessons to learn or that I need to fulfil a designated amount of adoration to apease a jealous and sometimes vengful diety.

But I do believe that life itself is a gift and an honour worth treating as God. That spark that marks creation itself. Undefinable.

That's Agnosticism.

I love it! 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
5 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

Agnosticism suggest to me ignorance. Hence, I can only conclude that the material cosmos is ignorance-causing. Why? That's where the gnostics have a solution. The material cosmos is the result of a primordial error on the part of a supra-cosmic, supremely divine being. That ignorant emanation trapped us all here in an imperfect Universe.

I am an agnostic, to me it is the equivalence of saying I don't know one way or the other, but. I am open to all takes on the subject, but I am still not going to be able to say I know anything. There isn't an answer to the god question at this point and I am okay with it. 

Edited by Sherapy
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GlitterRose
7 hours ago, XenoFish said:

This thread made me think of something that hadn't hit my mind in a while. I've heard some christians say that even if god doesn't exist, it's best to be safe. Which made me wonder, What if their god is the wrong one? And the real god is looking at them like WTF?????

I loved the South Park episode on that, too. Apparently, the correct religion was Mormon, and everyone went awwwww. It was just a great illustration of how arbitrary it would be if salvation depended on guessing correctly. 

 

Edited by ChaosRose
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Only_
1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

I am an agnostic, to me it is the equivalence of saying I don't know one way or the other, but. I am open to all takes on the subject, but I am still not going to be able to say I know anything. There isn't an answer to the god question at this point and I am okay with it. 

I'm not okay with it.

Because we may well be trapped in a simulated reality. A cosmic prison. How do we get out, in the end?

Knowledge, gnosis.

Edited by TruthSeeker_
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
XenoFish
28 minutes ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

I'm not okay with it.

Because we may well be trapped in a simulated reality. A cosmic prison. How do we get out, in the end?

Knowledge, gnosis.

What if we never get out. Does it matter? What if the true reality is some type of lovecraftian horror? Where the true god of creation regards us in the same way we do germs? Meaning we are unimportant to it. Just an experiment.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
5 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

What proof? Physical proof based on cosmic laws?

The gnostic man does not attain the knowledge that awakens him from these dreams by cognition but through revelatory experience, and this knowledge is not information but a modification of the sensate being.

Yea man; let anyone try to deny THAT  reality  :) 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
5 hours ago, XenoFish said:

So he reaches a point where is subconscious has been so saturated by a spiritual belief he has a "revelation." Okay we'll just go with that. 

All physical experience is revelatory to the person experiencing it. This includes external realities like eating an orange and internal realities like the thoughts which eating the orange engenders.  Your belief is that no one can have external revelatory experiences with things like gods because those things do not exist outside of human minds.  This limits your understanding a of what these experiences  are like and how they can be compared to eating an orange  The sensations and thoughts FLOW from the physical experience,. and are directly connected to it . BOTH contribute to the revelations of any new experience.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
2 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

I'm not okay with it.

Because we may well be trapped in a simulated reality. A cosmic prison. How do we get out, in the end?

Knowledge, gnosis.

How is knowledge going to get you out?

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Clarakore
2 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

There isn't an answer because you are trapped in a simulated reality. We are prisonners. I'm not okay with it.

Stop right there gnostic. You are more advanced with comprehending esoteric and what will be deemeed heretical even by the nonreligious.

Let me suggest some low magic logo craft. And in return if you find it of any value and use, both must qualify, then you owe me an insight.

I was there as a priest when you were a Cathar. I was a fish too and you ate me thinking I was clean.

So clear the energy and no longer condemn humanity by saying "you are trapped" to any for your words are more powerful than you imagine and you curse them to longer stays in Plato's cave and keep the hidden controls to this sim hidden from them.

0. Instead tell it like this, "You must find your own questions and answers will find you bith from insight within and insight from others, as we are all one and we are all within your simulatuion it is the same,  we are you and you are me, we were once prisoners but can simply turn around into self, we can see, and know, I am now okay with it, but won't rest until the very last joins you in gnosis."

1. Of course shorten it as I have issue with conscisement. Many say more with less. Some say lots into them without letting them hear and the same message is imprinted and more powerful.

1. The observer effect is mastery of one of the secret (no more) controls to the sim.

2. I need to improve my time travel and find a portal.

3. Help me.

5. The previous three are my issues now you may desire to clue me in on one for now. This sequence, pi, lemniscate, and moebius strip are clues one day we all will know how to use beginnig with how we write for men, and how we act for women, and how she will share with us again.

8. Remember how you all came out to our pyres and each of you took one and awaited our flame. Sorry for that.

13. PM if wanting to spiel or help.

21. To the rest of you 21 readers know that Goddess is within you and You can do what seemed like miracles in the past. Keep an eye on places for one or two of you soon will see one alone doing one. For your eyes only. They won't know you were even looking. Contact me to report it and we will begin mirroring sites to list them who are being activated.

Edited by I hide behind words
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Clarakore

For those ready but still within dualism of right and wrong, good and bad, and black and white know the etymology of demiurge and it is you from first use to the way Truthseeker now uses.

From wiki: The word "demiurge" is an English word fromdemiurgus, a Latinized form of the Greekδημιουργόςdēmiourgos which was originally a common noun meaning "craftsman" or "artisan", but gradually it came to mean "producer" and eventually "creator". The philosophical usage and the proper noun derive from Plato's Timaeus, written c. 360 BC, in which the demiurge is presented as the creator of the universe. This is accordingly the definition of the demiurge in the Platonic (c. 310–90 BC) and Middle Platonic (c. 90 BC – AD 300) philosophical traditions. In the various branches of the Neoplatonic school (third century onwards), the demiurge is the fashioner of the real, perceptible world after the model of the Ideas, but (in most Neoplatonic systems) is still not itself "the One". In the arch-dualist ideology of the various Gnostic systems, the material universe is evil, while the non-material world is good; accordingly, the demiurge is malevolent, as linked to the material world.

 

You are the demiurge but let Truth seek you now for Truth is a Youseeker__

You are the One and good and evil is dualism and also illusion.

Transmute from flesh to spirit and bacj by manifesting spirit into the physical.

We claim You Truthseeker and now Youseeker has met you halfway. We claim you Conspiralogician and revelation will find You from within and not from what I tell here for I will not convince anyone or want to.

Others do look into Gnosticism to know one of the enemies of the Church as many of you oppose the Church for It once opposed you.

I like agnostics (chaotic neutral) as if in an rp are chaotic and attack both pettier monotheists (pk and lawful evil) and atheists (pkk and chaotic good) .

And reality is a game so play by your own rules. Always. We will find and meet as we all become chaotic neutral.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Clarakore
6 hours ago, Kismit said:

I have to say I identify as Agnostic and I have no idea what this is...

Here is my spin on it. 

I do not believe in a sentient God who meddles in the lives of people, nor do I believe we have set chosen paths, lessons to learn or that I need to fulfil a designated amount of adoration to apease a jealous and sometimes vengful diety.

But I do believe that life itself is a gift and an honour worth treating as God. That spark that marks creation itself. Undefinable.

That's Agnosticism.

Is that Deism too?

They helped write the US Constitution.

On Conspiralogist's thread of rules for perfrction maybe you can brainstorm three guding principles of your own for us. I know you have that Spirit of '76 and somewhere own a Phyrgian cap for all it represents.

BTW kismit happy cinco de mayo and belated Mayday, Beltane, and to others happy belated Black Day.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Day

Vive le France, Remember Haymarket, Jump over the Fire, and I AM with you too.

Edited by I hide behind words
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Only_
32 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

How is knowledge going to get you out?

 

6sytz5.jpg

Edited by TruthSeeker_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dhurfjooydig

The culturally conditioned belief in 'god', and the culturally conditioned belief that there is no 'god', and the culturally conditioned belief that nothing is known or can be known of 'god' (all three sharing the exact same patterns of thought) are  symptoms of a pathological alienation from the natural world and the celestial mechanics that drive them.  Belief is an obstacle to clarity. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Liquid Gardens
12 hours ago, Sherapy said:

How is knowledge going to get you out?

Exactly.  If we're in a simulated reality, you've just potentially removed any basis for knowledge. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
aquatus1
17 hours ago, Podo said:

So what does that make me? I kinda always assumed that'd be atheist, but after this thread I'm not so sure. I mean...I don't really care, since my views aren't going to change based on the label. But I'm curious where others would place me.

If you ask yourself "Do I believe God exists and talk to people?" and the answer is "Yes", you are a theist.

If the answer is "No", you are an atheist.

If you never bothered asking yourself the question, you are either a theist or an apatheist.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
switchopens
On 5/5/2017 at 10:22 AM, XenoFish said:

This thread made me think of something that hadn't hit my mind in a while. I've heard some christians say that even if god doesn't exist, it's best to be safe. Which made me wonder, What if their god is the wrong one? And the real god is looking at them like WTF?????

You're referring to Pascal's wager in which which one would appease the deity in case his/her better judgment be wrong.
What a miserable way to live as if a man would not step outside his house for fears that he may be eaten by a tiger, thereby missing out on everything else that life has to offer.

"Atheism" - I love the word since I don't think there is another word that causes so much confusion usually derived from the fundamental interpretations of the definitions of the words that describe it.
I subscribe to either the 'Seth Andrews' short form which describes a person who doesn't believe in "theism", but has not evidence to rule out the possibility of some kind of deistic entity.
Then there is the Richard Dawkins way which in "The God Delusion" describes a probability scale from '1' being an solid pillar of a theistic God of 100% belief, to '7' describing an individual who holds fast to the idea that there is 0 god(s) period.  A '4' on this scale indicates a 50/50 split, or agnostic. 
Dawkins describes himself as a 6, which is a very low probability of a god, but leaning towards 7 where he states "I am agnostic on to the extent that I am agnostic about fairies at the bottom of the garden." which I interpret as a tongue in cheek as a stomp to theism, being that all religious documents used to validate a God is fallible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Only_
7 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Exactly.  If we're in a simulated reality, you've just potentially removed any basis for knowledge. 

Unless there is an ongoing rescue operation from Higher Forces. In which case, salvific knowledge has become available.

Edited by TruthSeeker_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
markdohle
On 5/4/2017 at 7:28 PM, Conspirologist said:

Why people need theism or atheism, when there is agnosticism? Theists believe that gods exist, atheists believe that gods don't exist. Agnostics know that there is no proof for both sides, therefore get busy with something useful, instead of wasting time by talking about gods.

 

Good topic.  The problem happens when theist or atheist refuse that they have doubts.....if they repress doubt then they come out as a tad fanatical.  I am a devout believer, a Christian and believe there are proofs for the existence of an Infinite Intelligence in the universe, but it is not based on science, how can it be, each must study the problem and then come up with their answer.  Also the New Testament I believe is trustworthy in its function as a witness to the experiences of the beginning of the faith with the resurrection of Jesus.   Yet, I do have doubts, so we all have a bit of the agnostic in us as well as the atheist.  Most agnostics that I have met seem to be atheists.  We live in an interesting world, one point of interest is that our deepest questions are never really answered in the way that science can tell us about how the world works.  In any case, I have given up arguing about such things, it has all been said before. I do find that true agnostics are very interesting to talk too, most have a good sense of humor and can agree to disagree.  Those who don't, like the theist, are working on something else I believe. 

 

Peace

Mark

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Liquid Gardens
16 hours ago, TruthSeeker_ said:

Unless there is an ongoing rescue operation from Higher Forces. In which case, salvific knowledge has become available.

Unless the Higher Forces don't really exist and are themselves part of the simulated reality.  Since that is possible and I really can't think of any way to ultimately disprove it we seem to be back at square one.  Gnosis-knowledge may not be 'knowledge' at all, it may just be something that you can use to move from one simulated cosmic prison to another.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
On 06/05/2017 at 5:47 PM, No Solid Ground said:

The culturally conditioned belief in 'god', and the culturally conditioned belief that there is no 'god', and the culturally conditioned belief that nothing is known or can be known of 'god' (all three sharing the exact same patterns of thought) are  symptoms of a pathological alienation from the natural world and the celestial mechanics that drive them.  Belief is an obstacle to clarity. 

And yet, as self aware human beings, this is the natural, and inevitable, state of things. We cannot live like non aware entities.

For a human being, the nature of the natural world around them, is irrevocably shaped and determined, in their mind, via cognitive process.

Belief merely aids in the formation of understanding and processing the world around us , and provides a centre and a clarity for that understanding; acting like a lens through which we perceive our environment.

Belief in god is not culturally conditioned, although culture shapes the NATURE of the gods believed in.

Belief in gods is an inevitable cognitive step, as the human mind seeks to make sense of its world from infancy.  Without belief in magical agents, a young child's mind simply cannot make any sense of what is happening around it.

Once it establishes that certain real agents of change exist, such as humans,  it tends to attribute ALL changes to active and intelligent agents  While not thought  of as gods by the infant, this concept evolves into the belief in spirits, or gods,  or angels, or some  culturally approved equivalent.

Much later, as a growing child is taught the physical facts and realities of the world, it may grow out of magical thinking (or have a specific religious belief conditioned into it by surrounding culture)  but that  first cognitive process will always remain close below the surface of the mind, ready to surface again . 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
XenoFish
8 hours ago, markdohle said:

Good topic.  The problem happens when theist or atheist refuse that they have doubts.....if they repress doubt then they come out as a tad fanatical.  I am a devout believer, a Christian and believe there are proofs for the existence of an Infinite Intelligence in the universe, but it is not based on science, how can it be, each must study the problem and then come up with their answer.  Also the New Testament I believe is trustworthy in its function as a witness to the experiences of the beginning of the faith with the resurrection of Jesus.   Yet, I do have doubts, so we all have a bit of the agnostic in us as well as the atheist.  Most agnostics that I have met seem to be atheists.  We live in an interesting world, one point of interest is that our deepest questions are never really answered in the way that science can tell us about how the world works.  In any case, I have given up arguing about such things, it has all been said before. I do find that true agnostics are very interesting to talk too, most have a good sense of humor and can agree to disagree.  Those who don't, like the theist, are working on something else I believe. 

 

Peace

Mark

L88mBul.jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dhurfjooydig
48 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Belief merely aids in the formation of understanding and processing the world around us , and provides a centre and a clarity for that understanding; acting like a lens through which we perceive our environment.

IMO, 'belief' interferes with an organic perception and processing of existence and our place in it. It is a calcification of conditioned patterns of thought and emotional reactivity that dirty and distort our perception of what actually exists and what actually is taking place ... right here and right now. The term 'clarity' derives from a root of 'clear' ... meaning the less filters (beliefs) we blind ourselves with, the clearer we experience the world as it is, rather than how we prefer / believe it to be. 

Edited by No Solid Ground

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Only_
8 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Unless the Higher Forces don't really exist and are themselves part of the simulated reality.  Since that is possible and I really can't think of any way to ultimately disprove it we seem to be back at square one.  Gnosis-knowledge may not be 'knowledge' at all, it may just be something that you can use to move from one simulated cosmic prison to another.

The world is clearly imperfect. Both the theists and atheists have their own explanation for that. The gnostic's explanation is that it's creator (demiurge) is also imperfect. Therefore it stands to reason and intuition that the simulated reality cannot be impenetrable or inescapable. There's most certainly a way to inject information into this reality, gnosis or knowledge of the heart which serves to awake one to it's true origin.

Edited by TruthSeeker_

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
31 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

IMO, 'belief' interferes with an organic perception and processing of existence and our place in it. It is a calcification of conditioned patterns of thought and emotional reactivity that dirty and distort our perception of what actually exists and what actually is taking place ... right here and right now. The term 'clarity' derives from a root of 'clear' ... meaning the less filters (beliefs) we blind ourselves with, the clearer we experience the world as it is, rather than how we prefer / believe it to be. 

Humans cnt think without forming basic beliefs about what their body sees and their mind perceives  Maybe we are discussing two different things 

beliefs are constructed to help us understand, come to terms with, and make sense of /cope with things we just  do not have enough data to KNOW about factually 

A belief is conditional on not being able to ascertain truth  Thus it cannot affect clarity of truth but it can provide clarity of understanding, especially if the belief happens to match an unknown truth. 

There is no singular "world as it is"  for a group of  human beings  One person will see a dog as a danger another will see the same dog a s a companion, while a third will see it a s food.

With belief and faith, we are able to shape, recreate, and transform the world we live in, into one where we are safe comfortable and happy.  Thus one person can live in certain conditions and be totally miserable, while another living in the same conditions can be optimistic hopeful and thus  act to change their conditions

Belief and faith (at heart rather than in religious terms)  are then essential ingredients in allowing us the power to  MAKE our world  how we prefer it to be. . 

Ps what do you mean by organic perception?. Our mind perceives and translates what our body experiences organically but also via self aware consciousness  What already exists in our minds eg thoughts, memories, beliefs, values opinions experiences etc., affects how we process new thoughts and data.  So too, does our ability to logically extrapolate consequences for present actions and behaviours and make choices based on logic.  

Edited by Mr Walker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dhurfjooydig
14 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

beliefs are constructed to help us understand, come to terms with, and make sense of /cope with things we just  do not have enough data to KNOW about factually 

IMO, if we don't have enough data to determine fact then the most beneficial thing we can do is say "I don't know' and stay with the uncertainty for as long as it takes for it to inform us ... instead of manufacturing or reaching for a culturally conditioned belief and imposing it onto what we are perceiving but not yet clearly processing. Which brings me back to ... belief is a reactive comforting obscuration used to avoid uncertainty, even in the absence of evidence ... even contrary to evidence. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.