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Conspirologist

Theism and Atheism Vs Agnosticism

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markdohle
2 hours ago, Blood_Sacrifice said:

Fantasy believed as truths by one - Hallucination

Fantasy believed as truths by few - Delusion

Fantasy believed as truths by millions - Religion

There isn't any differentiating property except for numbers ... but the sheer numbers do make religion a separate group from other fantasy beliefs, unfortunately.

 

What about political beliefs, or your belief, it is the same thing.  We live in a world where we all need to choose and then according to what our consciences tells us and then to live that out.  To say that millions live in delusion is a delusion all by itself based on your own interpretation of reality.  

Peace
Mark

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markdohle
3 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

It certainly does appear to be a fantasy inquiry at this point in time.

What relevance does an NDE or OBE have with the God question? 

 

Well because in the NDE many say they meet God.....that includes atheist, who aren't for the most part once they have the experience.

Peace
Mark

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Nuclear Wessel
22 minutes ago, markdohle said:

Well because in the NDE many say they meet God.....that includes atheist, who aren't for the most part once they have the experience.

Peace
Mark

 

According to this Wikipedia article these are the most common elements being reported with a NDE

 

Quote

 

  • A sense/awareness of being dead.[4][15]
  • A sense of peace, well-being and painlessness. Positive emotions. A sense of removal from the world.[4][15][16]
  • An out-of-body experience. A perception of one's body from an outside position. Sometimes observing medical professionals performing resuscitation efforts.[4]<[15][16][17]
  • A "tunnel experience" or entering a darkness. A sense of moving up, or through, a passageway or staircase.[4][15][17]
  • A rapid movement toward and/or sudden immersion in a powerful light (or "Being of Light") which communicates with the person.[15][16]
  • An intense feeling of unconditional love and acceptance.[16]
  • Encountering "Beings of Light", "Beings dressed in white", or similar. Also, the possibility of being reunited with deceased loved ones.[4][16][17]
  • Receiving a life review, commonly referred to as "seeing one's life flash before one's eyes".[4][15][16]
  • Receiving knowledge about one's life and the nature of the universe.[16]
  • Approaching a border,[15] or a decision by oneself or others to return to one's body, often accompanied by a reluctance to return.[4][16][17]
  • Suddenly finding oneself back inside one's body.[18]
  • Connection to the cultural beliefs held by the individual, which seem to dictate some of the phenomena experienced in the NDE and particularly the later interpretation thereof.[13]

 

 

 

I don't see anything related specifically to people saying that they "meet God"... just meeting "beings of light".

Edited by Nuclear Wessel
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aquatus1

And yet, the numbers don't have anything to do with the actual fantasy.  So, why include them?

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aquatus1
1 hour ago, markdohle said:

For me, atheism is the fantasy and the belief that we simply go to sleep at death is the illusion.  Christ Jesus embraced all that happened to him.  All of the injustices, the torture, the betrayal and forgave all and he rose from the dead.....fantasy, I believe not.....however, I know that you will think otherwise and think I am living in a fantasy world.  Which is OK, we all have to find our way the best way we can.

I don't really have a problem with people living in fantasy worlds, as long as they don't harm others.  I do get moderately annoyed at those who insist their fantasy world is superior to anyone else's world, but hey, that's part and parcel of the human condition.  I don't have any particular opinion regarding what happens after death, but that's mostly the romanticist in me, and since my beliefs on the matter affect no one else and do not require any action on my part, I don't have a problem with them, nor do I consider myself any less an atheist because of it.  Fantasy or otherwise, I am satisfied with it as an answer, and don't see any reason to agree that nothing happens after death.

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markdohle
1 hour ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

 

According to this Wikipedia article these are the most common elements being reported with a NDE

 

I don't see anything related specifically to people saying that they "meet God"... just meeting "beings of light".

 

As time goes on more professionals are getting involved in the study of NDEs.  Many start out as skeptics and then change their minds because of what they hear from others.  Jeffery Long is bolder than many and has pretty much stated, from his studies that an afterlife is pretty much a face.....he has a new book out called, "God and the Afterlife" stating that these experiences that are worldwide and are experienced despite belief systems.  Both atheist and believers of all faith have pretty much the same core experience.  Here is the book, it is worth the read, even if you won't find it in any way convincing.  These studies are important and the skeptic is also needed, both in the end help each other as they go back and forth.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0062279548/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 

From a secular point of view, there is a new book out on simply surviving death.  Called, you got it "Surviving Death", here is the web page for that as well.  The author is Leslie Kean.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0062279548/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I do believe that the debunkers are losing the fight over this issue.  I am not saying that science will come out and state there is an afterlife, but the reality of an afterlife may become more probable for many when reading these authors, that goes for the scientist as well. 

Peace
Mark

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markdohle
36 minutes ago, aquatus1 said:

I don't really have a problem with people living in fantasy worlds, as long as they don't harm others.  I do get moderately annoyed at those who insist their fantasy world is superior to anyone else's world, but hey, that's part and parcel of the human condition.  I don't have any particular opinion regarding what happens after death, but that's mostly the romanticist in me, and since my beliefs on the matter affect no one else and do not require any action on my part, I don't have a problem with them, nor do I consider myself any less an atheist because of it.  Fantasy or otherwise, I am satisfied with it as an answer, and don't see any reason to agree that nothing happens after death.

 

Well said, balanced and thoughtful, thank you:clap:

 

Peace
mark

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Mr Walker
7 hours ago, aquatus1 said:

Why not?

What are the differentiating properties?

It is only fantasy if its not real.

What may be fantasy in one humans life can be a physical reality in another's. eg winning 50 million dollars in the lottery. 

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Nuclear Wessel
13 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

It is only fantasy if its not real.

What may be fantasy in one humans life can be a physical reality in another's. eg winning 50 million dollars in the lottery. 

The difference being in this case that the $50M lotto can be verified when compared against another person whereas the existence of some fantastical sky-wizard in a person's life can't be verified at all.

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Mr Walker
28 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

The difference being in this case that the $50M lotto can be verified when compared against another person whereas the existence of some fantastical sky-wizard in a person's life can't be verified at all.

No that is not true. The reality exists for the individual  (based on the money in the bank or the experience with a god or angel ) I am not talking about comparative realities but personal ones  Winning 50 million makes a difference in a person's life and so does an encounter with a real angel or god.  This is WHY one person may experience a physical reality which another can only fantasise about.  If you don't believe in miracles et al this wont make sense to you because you think they cant be real, but if you experience them it will.

A physical miracle/intervention  can save your life, and you can't get more real than that, but you will never have transferrable evidences to convince another person.

 If a tree falls in a forest, and you are the only one to see it fall, can you be certain it really fell?

Of course you can; especially if it falls on you. :) .  

Edited by Mr Walker

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Liquid Gardens
4 hours ago, markdohle said:

 To say that millions live in delusion is a delusion all by itself based on your own interpretation of reality.  

I think it's just based on logic.  If by some chance Christianity is true, there are a lot of Hindus who are to some extent delusional (just like everybody).

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Davros of Skaro
7 hours ago, markdohle said:

I am not saying that science will come out and state there is an afterlife, but the reality of an afterlife may become more probable for many when reading these authors, that goes for the scientist as well

Peace
Mark

How about the probability of there being a Bigfoot the more people read Bigfoot reports, and ignore the fallibility of the Brain?

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eight bits

mark

Quote

... stating that these experiences that are worldwide and are experienced despite belief systems.

Just like any other dream.

It is not a question of "debunking" the experience, but being in no rush to embrace the interpretation of it as literally veridical.  There is often truth in dreams, I believe, but they are hardly ever documentaries.

Why would this dream be the exception?

Peace back at ya. Always good to see you here on the dark side.

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Rlyeh
11 hours ago, markdohle said:

For me, atheism is the fantasy and the belief that we simply go to sleep at death is the illusion.  Christ Jesus embraced all that happened to him.  All of the injustices, the torture, the betrayal and forgave all and he rose from the dead.....fantasy, I believe not.....however, I know that you will think otherwise and think I am living in a fantasy world.  Which is OK, we all have to find our way the best way we can. 

And then he flew away right?

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third_eye
On 5/8/2017 at 10:11 PM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I see that as kind of ......................................................weird

Bless you ... don't knock it till you tried it ... :P

~

On 5/9/2017 at 8:16 AM, XenoFish said:

I often wonder why I even post an argument on things anymore. Seems on some deeper level pointless.


None the need to blanket it with the deifintion 'argument' ... at best its an engagement of opinions ...

This reminds me of something a monk expressed in regards to 'the point' ... I forget how it started but he edged in the last word as ...

"The point is where the needle directs the thread, the eye is where thread is pulled ... "

Can't dress it up with a better translation without it sounding like some fancy New Age guarantee life altering Slogan but I think you knows what I or he meant ...

Oh ... Happy Wesak by the way ... no deity/deities involved of course ... :yes:

~

Edited by third_eye
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markdohle
4 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

How about the probability of there being a Bigfoot the more people read Bigfoot reports, and ignore the fallibility of the Brain?

I understand your position, my friend, like you, it is hard for me to accept anything outside my own belief system.  There are literally millions of people walking around who have had NDEs from all belief systems and that includes atheist.  I doubt bigfoot has had that many sighting ;-)..
I don't expect you to ever to believe in any God or an afterlife, you are convinced.  Even if there are experiences that people have that you think are impossible, they still have them, and they are changed by them....and that includes atheist (http://www.near-death.com/religion/atheism.html).  Maybe they are, but people still have them.   Thanks for your reply ;-).

 

Peace
Mark

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markdohle
2 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

And then he flew away right?

Atheism is not based on science but in philosophy, science can be proven by atheist or theist to back up their point, or so they (I) think.  That is obviously not true.

 

Peace
mark

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Rlyeh
Just now, markdohle said:

Atheism is not based on science but in philosophy, science can be proven by atheist or theist to back up their point, or so they (I) think.  That is obviously not true.

In Acts didn't Jesus also get to heaven on a cloud?

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Xeno-Fish
2 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

In Acts didn't Jesus also get to heaven on a cloud?

e2ab941b90d656cf83dbacb0c050a4dc23ccd3b7

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markdohle
3 hours ago, eight bits said:

mark

Just like any other dream.

It is not a question of "debunking" the experience, but being in no rush to embrace the interpretation of it as literally veridical.  There is often truth in dreams, I believe, but they are hardly ever documentaries.

Why would this dream be the exception?

Peace back at ya. Always good to see you here on the dark side.

 

People who have NDE's know the difference, my friend.  Many leave their body (whatever that is) and come back when they are resuscitated with information that took place at a distance that is discovered to be true.  No dream is like that.  I dream often, many are very realistic but I have never believed that they are anything more than dreams.  However, if I were to keel over from a heart attack, where there is no blood going into the brain, which means that thought is not possible, yet had a full-blown NDE, yes, that would be different than a dream.  Also people who are blind from birth to not dream in images, yet blind people who have had NDEs see.  So your point (from the dark side :P) misses the point I believe.  Below are al couple of sites you may be interested in.....always a pleasure my friend.


http://www.near-death.com/science/evidence/people-see-verified-events-while-obe.html

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2128726-in-near-death-experiences-blind-people-see-for-first-time/

 

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markdohle
3 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

In Acts didn't Jesus also get to heaven on a cloud?

It does not say that it uses language to express an event that goes beyond our experience, no clouds that transported him.  It means that Jesus in his resurrected body transcends space and time......a cloud hid him, another way of saying he was simply gone.  Of course, I believe that the New Testament is an actual document that can be trusted based on the experience of the first Christians who had a direct experience of the Risen Lord.   I know you can't accept that.


“After he said this, he was taken up
before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from
their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky
as he was going, when suddenly two men
dressed in white stood beside them. ‘Men of Galilee,’
they said, ‘why do you stand here looking
into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken
from you into heaven, will come back
in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.’”

Acts 1:9–11

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Rlyeh
1 minute ago, markdohle said:

It does not say that it uses language to express an event that goes beyond our experience, no clouds that transported him.  It means that Jesus in his resurrected body transcends space and time......a cloud hid him, another way of saying he was simply gone.  Of course, I believe that the New Testament is an actual document that can be trusted based on the experience of the first Christians who had a direct experience of the Risen Lord.   I know you can't accept that.


“After he said this, he was taken up
before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from
their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky
as he was going, when suddenly two men
dressed in white stood beside them. ‘Men of Galilee,’
they said, ‘why do you stand here looking
into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken
from you into heaven, will come back
in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.’”

Acts 1:9–11

A cloud received him and took him up to heaven.

Acts 1 (NKJV)

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,

11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

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markdohle
2 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

A cloud received him and took him up to heaven.

Acts 1 (NKJV)

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,

11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

 

Well, I wonder if he has arrived yet?   Up is a long way, out to the outer rim of all the universes......probably not :rolleyes:

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Stubbly_Dooright
On 5/9/2017 at 4:02 AM, Frank Merton said:

I don't know is not and never will be a dead end.  It is a starting place.  If one assumes one knows, then one is at the dead end.

You know, a whole new day has me looking at this, and I realized how this phrase spoken by the person, could make or break the person. If one sees it as a dead end, then they will never advance. If one sees it as a beginning, then it's a positive bridge to always learning and advancing. I'm am glad that most people uses it as a positive bridge, like how I like to see it. :yes: 

On 5/9/2017 at 8:18 AM, markdohle said:

We are sentient, we live in a universe that is based on laws, and we actually have brains that can understand the Universe, at least in part...points to an infinite intelligence.  I doubt God plays favorites.  Revelation can only be received at the level the receiver is at.   To say that we live in such a universe and think that the 'creator' is not sentient to me is absurd.  For others, of course, it is not.

Also, from my perspective and from what you write about, you do care very much for what is the truth.....so I think the whole God question is an important question for you....again just my opinion.  Writing is a good way to communicate, but without words and gestures, it is hard to really know.

 

peace
mark

I often perceive this same feeling about a higher power and it's place in the universe. I wonder, how so many not only see it differently, but then turn around and insist what they believe to use it for less then positive means. 

23 hours ago, markdohle said:

I believe that to be sentient, conscious, is not an accident.  I also doubt that if the universe just happened, and was based on some blind, unintelligent process, is a very big jump to believe that a product of that process would be superior.  Also, the one "hard question" is about the nature of consciousness.  There are many books on the nature of our 'self-awareness' but really, they are just opinions.  It will be interesting to see where this goes if I live long enough.

 

peace
mark

 

I believe most of the times, that we're still an accident, with maybe a higher power in there somewhere. :blink: But, I love when those who offer what they believe and just that, gives a peek and a different outlook (other than myself) so to learn about the many different viewpoints, and possibly learn about my viewpoint in the process. Makes me wonder, despite the differences in viewpoints, what's there that is similar and go from there. There is something to learn from in the process of seeing differences in viewpoints and in the similar one's. :)  :yes: 

22 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

No matter how superior you think you are, blind unintelligent processes will always have the upper hand.

Aw man, I have to bow down to that on daily basis. I do work in retail. :o  :w00t:

22 hours ago, aquatus1 said:

I'm a functioning atheist.  The only allowance I have for the existence of God, or any any other deity, is mostly a nostalgic romanticism.  Being that this is the same place I keep my belief in magic, psychic powers, and various other things I love but would never vote for in a realistic setting, I can comfortably say I am an atheist and not an agnostic.  Loving a fantasy does not equate to being uncertain about a reality.

:hmm: Safe place?! Interesting. That's how most of my faith is and the place it's in. I just feel it comes out in actions. 

22 hours ago, markdohle said:
22 hours ago, Rlyeh said:

No matter how superior you think you are, blind unintelligent processes will always have the upper hand.

LOL, Murphy's law times 100.

Peace
Mark

EXACTLY!!!!   :blink:    *creeps back into the shadows*

21 hours ago, markdohle said:

Well, the God question is not a fantasy inquiry.  Also, studies are continuing on NDE's, OBE's etc., and are finding support from some men of science.  It will be interesting to see how that turns out....but at my age, I am sure I will be dead by then. 

 

peace
Mark. 

:yes:   

Wait! What?!   Shush you! :blush:

16 hours ago, markdohle said:

I think it depends on the person asking the question.  Belief in God allows many to face life without falling into escapes that led to further problems.  Drugs, drink, sexual acting out, the will to power, all in order to escape the pain that is our lot in life.  It is not about pie in the sky etc., but about understanding that this life is very important, what we become is even more important, and we are responsible for our lives and choices.  It is true that freedom is acquired by our choices and inner struggles.  We can only grow by facing life as it is and not seeking to run away from the pain the is the lot of all of us in one measure or another.  Whatever allows anyone to grow into a deeper humanity is life-giving, if one's faith does that it is certainly not based on some sort of dream world.  Granted for some their faith could do that, but it will not last because life happens, distress, sickness, and loss of loved ones.....not to mention the injustices that are committed on a daily basis.  
For me, atheism is the fantasy and the belief that we simply go to sleep at death is the illusion.  Christ Jesus embraced all that happened to him.  All of the injustices, the torture, the betrayal and forgave all and he rose from the dead.....fantasy, I believe not.....however, I know that you will think otherwise and think I am living in a fantasy world.  Which is OK, we all have to find our way the best way we can. 

 

Peace
mark

 

I think this is well said. I wonder, do you think it can be measured, in how we each believe or don't believe, in our behaviors and actions within ourselves and to others? 

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Stubbly_Dooright
16 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

 

According to this Wikipedia article these are the most common elements being reported with a NDE

 

I don't see anything related specifically to people saying that they "meet God"... just meeting "beings of light".

I think there are some thought provoking thoughts and question here. What about those who said they met their dead loved ones. Were they really their loved ones or not? In which, I think I already know your answer. ................ I think. :w00t: 

But a good point here, never the less. :D 

15 hours ago, aquatus1 said:

I don't really have a problem with people living in fantasy worlds, as long as they don't harm others.  I do get moderately annoyed at those who insist their fantasy world is superior to anyone else's world, but hey, that's part and parcel of the human condition.  I don't have any particular opinion regarding what happens after death, but that's mostly the romanticist in me, and since my beliefs on the matter affect no one else and do not require any action on my part, I don't have a problem with them, nor do I consider myself any less an atheist because of it.  Fantasy or otherwise, I am satisfied with it as an answer, and don't see any reason to agree that nothing happens after death.

In which, I agree whole heartily. :yes: I can relate and understand faith, religion, and the behavior of one's beliefs, be in a subjective mode. Despite being fully aware of organized religion, I just think that's a place for each individual subjective believers to hone in their subjective belief behaviors.  I always thought religion came about as a law of the land, before secular laws came into place. )  So when the subjectiveness was more aware, things get put on a level under what can be proved and not proved. From my observations and point of view. ;)  

Anyways, I feel with assuming that in mind in the world, I cannot understand how others still insist in viewing and pushing their subjective beliefs into others. ( I know, they think it's objective, but ) the subjectiveness can be shown. And then I feel, or wonder, if it's those who do that, are not so sure in their own belief. If they do not have that, why bring others into their confusion. 

I can how it's viewed as a fantasy, I just think it gets worth when the fantasy is trying to be pushed as a virus. We're better off in just being ourselves. 

15 hours ago, markdohle said:

As time goes on more professionals are getting involved in the study of NDEs.  Many start out as skeptics and then change their minds because of what they hear from others.  Jeffery Long is bolder than many and has pretty much stated, from his studies that an afterlife is pretty much a face.....he has a new book out called, "God and the Afterlife" stating that these experiences that are worldwide and are experienced despite belief systems.  Both atheist and believers of all faith have pretty much the same core experience.  Here is the book, it is worth the read, even if you won't find it in any way convincing.  These studies are important and the skeptic is also needed, both in the end help each other as they go back and forth.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0062279548/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 

From a secular point of view, there is a new book out on simply surviving death.  Called, you got it "Surviving Death", here is the web page for that as well.  The author is Leslie Kean.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0062279548/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I do believe that the debunkers are losing the fight over this issue.  I am not saying that science will come out and state there is an afterlife, but the reality of an afterlife may become more probable for many when reading these authors, that goes for the scientist as well. 

Peace
Mark

I can see this. 

In another sense, my personal and own subjective belief feels that we're not suppose to know. .......... for a reason. 

But, that's my own personal belief. ;)  :w00t: 

7 hours ago, davros of skaro said:

How about the probability of there being a Bigfoot the more people read Bigfoot reports, and ignore the fallibility of the Brain?

Eeeep! :o    I think that's a good point. 

Oh for crying outloud!   It's a couple of my ex's!!   ....................................................  just kidding. :w00t: 

(ok, just after doing research, I feel I have been using the :w00t: wrongly. I thought it mean 'I'm crazy'. My bad. )

4 hours ago, third_eye said:
On 5/8/2017 at 10:11 AM, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I see that as kind of ......................................................weird

Bless you ... don't knock it till you tried it ... :P

I had to go back to the post that you're replying to, and then realize we're talking about a chocolate covered god. Naw, despite my ever loving respect and need for chocolate, I do have limits. ;) Insects, people, and higher powers, are those in question. ;)  Wait a minute........................... no, there is too much ...................... no, never mind...............  family board, that's all I'm sorry. *looks really really sheepish*

 

 

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