Freemasonry and its shadow

[back to earth]

39 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

 

Hmmmm ... maybe add a Chod Rite for yourself to that phurba  .....   (  the delusion is strong in this one  )  . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[back to earth]

9 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Looks like a high-fautin letter opener.

Its a very 'back to earth '  object      

... just trying to 'pin him down'   as they say       

enough puns .....    

If he doesnt improve ... I shall   ...    

release the kraken !

 

[jmccr8]

54 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

You're putting the horse before the cart. Before we set out looking for evidence of a secret oral transmission tradition in Freemasonry, we need to look at reasons why there might have been one ... which in turn might make it easier to find evidence if it exists. 

We can do this by looking, as I mentioned earlier, at the events that were taking place in Europe in the 12th-13th century (including Christian recontextualization and / or repression of non-Christian oral traditions) ... happening around the same time period that the first Freemasonry manuscript was published. We can wonder about the timing of this publication and wonder if the manuscript was an attempt to preserve a threatened oral tradition, in seemingly benign, even nonsensical rituals and symbols, by way of code. 

We can simultaneously look at the emergence of the European fascination with alchemy in the 12-13th century, again during a time when non-Christian oral traditions were threatened, and wonder if instead of hocus pocus they are sophisticated containers that encode a threatened oral tradition that is only accessible to those that were trained to recognize them as such.

We can look at even older European / Western Asian non-Christian secret societies that were also threatened by the Christian ascendency ... there were hundreds of them ... one of the most well known and yet not well known, Mithraism ... defined as 'religion' by the modern (Christian-indoctrinated) Western world for a couple hundred years ... but now increasingly being regarded as a 'cultural astronomy' tradition that encoded a threatened much older (non-mystical) oral tradition (keeping in mind that rites are not in themselves evidence of 'religion' or 'mysticism').  

Once we establish that there may have been an incentive for a secret oral transmission tradition in Freemasonry (a school of thought which very likely predates the publishing of the first Freemasonry manuscript) and that there was an older precedence for this phenomenon (oral tradition based secret societies) ... then we're better informed in our search for evidence of this tradition in Freemasonry, if it exists.

You are making suppositions based on no evidence, you haven'the shown that there is a group of people that are a subsection of the Freemasonry that presently exists and has operated since before the establishment of the Freemasonry. There is no horse just a cartfull of fertilizer and no seeds to sow a crop with. One could say just as easily that there is a secret society of kindergarten teachers that sell candies to finance covert black ops fairy terrorists. Without some credible evidence it is just a story with no merit.

Jmccr8

Edited May 9, 2017 by jmccr8

[kmt_sesh]

10 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

...One could say just as easily that there is a secret society of kindergarten teachers that sell candies to finance covert black ops fairy terrorists...

Dammit, jmccr8, you know that's supposed to be a secret.

Don't be surprised now if those teachers' wicked minions, the highly trained special-ops group of kindergarten-kid assassins, comes knocking down your door.

[Dhurfjooydig]

12 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

 ... you haven'the shown that there is a group of people that are a subsection of the Freemasonry that presently exists and has operated since before the establishment of the Freemasonry.

Correct. I'm establishing why there might be a sound basis for searching for said evidence. Cart before horse.
 

[jmccr8]

32 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Dammit, jmccr8, you know that's supposed to be a secret.

Don't be surprised now if those teachers' wicked minions, the highly trained special-ops group of kindergarten-kid assassins, comes knocking down your door.

I'm not worried I've got an in with the League of Leprechauns.

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

32 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

Correct. I'm establishing why there might be a sound basis for searching for said evidence. Cart before horse.
 

I'm pretty sure that several fiction authors like Dan Brown have already gone that route. Where and how do you expect to be able to verify this ancient oral tradition without being able to definitively identify the people involved first, and as it has been pointed out several times that the Freemason have a set standard of membership and organizational format that excludes unacceptable deviation?

jmccr8

[back to earth]

2 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

Correct. I'm establishing why there might be a sound basis for searching for said evidence. Cart before horse.
 

Trying to establish why  there might be ....

[Dhurfjooydig]

33 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

m pretty sure that several fiction authors like Dan Brown have already gone that route. 
 

I'm not familiar with Dan Brown's work but a quick google suggests that I wouldn't find it interesting or worthwhile ...  I have no interest in pop fiction, and I don't have a 'spiritual' cell in my entire being ... in fact, I regard 'spirituality' as a symptom of a pathological alienation from the natural world ... a degradation of perception.

"... Where and how do you expect to be able to verify this ancient oral tradition without being able to definitively identify the people involved first"

I don't need to reinvent this wheel. Prior to the very modern Christian invention of the concept of religion, oral traditions were rooted in an acknowledgement of humanity's innately embedded place within the natural world and the celestial mechanics that drive it. This is well documented and doesn't need verification.  And it's also well-documented why this worldview and the oral tradition it shaped went into hiding.

IMO, it's more important to understand to what extent this worldview and the oral tradition informed by it went into hiding (during the Christian ascendency), to imagine the mechanics of hiding a worldview / oral tradition, and to acknowledge that it may have been hidden in any number of places (including in Freemasonry) ... than it is to find definitive evidence of it being hidden in any one specific place.

Once it's clear that it's likely hidden in any number of containers, then it will be easier to identify evidence of it in specific containers. But more importantly, it prepares the ground for the hidden worldview / oral tradition to emerge from hiding once it becomes widely known that it hid. In other words, creating the circumstances for it to expose itself (in the case of secret oral transmission traditions) rather than attempting to dig it out of its hiding place which would likely have the opposite effect of entrenching it deeper and more secretively. Which is why I say focusing on evidence of the people involved in a secret oral transmission tradition is placing the cart before the horse. It is also a fools errand. A secret oral tradition will find a pubic voice when it no longer needs to be hidden ... so creating circumstances that loosen the need to be hidden would be the first natural step toward finding evidence of the people who are hiding it. 

I hope this answers the question that you keep asking over and over, because I'm not going to answer it again. 
 

[Kenemet]

9 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

I'm pretty sure that several fiction authors like Dan Brown have already gone that route. Where and how do you expect to be able to verify this ancient oral tradition without being able to definitively identify the people involved first, and as it has been pointed out several times that the Freemason have a set standard of membership and organizational format that excludes unacceptable deviation?

And, in fact, the artwork of the nation and area proves the "ancient oral tradition" to be wrong.

A look through museums and collections (and photographs) of artwork of a known period (which is easily identified by style) shows that there's no such iconography that supports the idea of a tradition going back that far.  For example, the "God the geometer (with compass)" image only goes back to medieval times, negating the idea that the symbol for Masons goes back to the time of Solomon.  

[Kenemet]

6 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

"... Where and how do you expect to be able to verify this ancient oral tradition without being able to definitively identify the people involved first"

I don't need to reinvent this wheel. Prior to the very modern Christian invention of the concept of religion, oral traditions were rooted in an acknowledgement of humanity's innately embedded place within the natural world and the celestial mechanics that drive it. This is well documented and doesn't need verification.  And it's also well-documented why this worldview and the oral tradition it shaped went into hiding.
...
I hope this answers the question that you keep asking over and over, because I'm not going to answer it again. 

No, it doesn't.

The question we're asking is "how do you determine that this really IS an ancient oral tradition and not someone from the 1600's SAYING it's an ancient oral tradition and this bit of information being carried forward?"

Because, textually, this doesn't appear before the tenth century.  People in the area were writing long before that and there's evidence of the earliest manuscripts, collected from oral traditions.

[Dhurfjooydig]

3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

No, it doesn't.

Let's regroup a bit before moving forward. It's not clear that you and jmccr8, are referring to the same thing when you both use the phrase ancient oral tradition here:



"how do you determine that this really IS an ancient oral tradition (Kenemet)  

"Where and how do you expect to be able to verify this ancient oral tradition without being able to definitively identify the people involved first"" ( jmccr8)

... and it's not clear what each of you are referring to when you use the phrase in response to my posts. 

I'd appreciate it if you would both take a moment to clarify specifically what you referred to when you referred to "this / ancient oral tradition" in your comments I posted above ... the 18k oral tradition I referred to in one of my posts? the pre-Christian ascendency nature based oral tradition I referred to? A possible secret oral transmission tradition that may or may not be a component of Freemasonry? 

Once this is clarified, I'll respond to your recent post, Kenemet.

[jaylemurph]

1 hour ago, No Solid Ground said:

Let's regroup a bit before moving forward. It's not clear that you and jmccr8, are referring to the same thing when you both use the phrase ancient oral tradition here:



"how do you determine that this really IS an ancient oral tradition (Kenemet)  

"Where and how do you expect to be able to verify this ancient oral tradition without being able to definitively identify the people involved first"" ( jmccr8)

... and it's not clear what each of you are referring to when you use the phrase in response to my posts. 

I'd appreciate it if you would both take a moment to clarify specifically what you referred to when you referred to "this / ancient oral tradition" in your comments I posted above ... the 18k oral tradition I referred to in one of my posts? the pre-Christian ascendency nature based oral tradition I referred to? A possible secret oral transmission tradition that may or may not be a component of Freemasonry? 

Once this is clarified, I'll respond to your recent post, Kenemet.

Hey, look!

It's exactly the kind of stonewalling I said would happen in my last post!

--Jaylemurph

[Dhurfjooydig]

4 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Hey, look!

It's exactly the kind of stonewalling I said would happen in my last post!

--Jaylemurph

In what alternative reality is asking for specific clarification "stonewalling"? 

And how does your comment contribute positively to the discussion?

Edited May 9, 2017 by No Solid Ground

[jaylemurph]

1 minute ago, No Solid Ground said:

In what alternative reality is asking for specific clarification "stonewalling"? 

When you refuse (repeatedly) to answer the simple questions put to you and pretend you don't remember the things you've written rather than address the issues.

See, it's this playing like you don't understand what people mean when they post that makes this all so tiresome. But, hey, it's your thread that will get shut down when you don't respond to questions.

--Jaylemurph

[Dhurfjooydig]

Asking for clarification of meaning is a normal and essential part of any ongoing dialogue that has many moving parts. Nuance and specificity, dangerously lacking in modern discourse, is important and minimizes confusion. 

[jaylemurph]

24 minutes ago, No Solid Ground said:

Asking for clarification of meaning is a normal and essential part of any ongoing dialogue that has many moving parts. Nuance and specificity, dangerously lacking in modern discourse, is important and minimizes confusion. 

Again, making condescending suggestions/insulting your interlocutors isn't going to help you. As I said, we're not as stupid here as you seem to think.

--Jaylemurph

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

They're asking "what measures and/or rubrics are you using to define something as genuine ancient tradition, rather then Reformation/Counter-Reformation era pseudo-ancient hyperbole?" 

 

Which is a good question, because the Druids claiming ownership of Stonehenge and other Megalythic circles leaps to mind. Archaeology and anthropology suggest that "Druids" had bog all to do with stone circles and their "ancient traditions" are stuff made up by Victorian mentalists enthusiasts. 

[Dhurfjooydig]

29 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

They're asking "what measures and/or rubrics are you using to define something as genuine ancient tradition, rather then Reformation/Counter-Reformation era pseudo-ancient hyperbole?" 

It's a good question, but I'm asking them to specifically clarify which example of "ancient oral tradition" they were referring to when they (each) asked their question ... in my request for clarification I named three related but very different permutations of "ancient oral tradition" that have been discussed throughout this thread or very recently. It's not clear which permutation they are asking about and not clear  if they are both asking about the same permutation. This clarification will provide context needed to directly answer their (perhaps quite different) questions.

Edited May 9, 2017 by No Solid Ground

[back to earth]

3 hours ago, No Solid Ground said:

Let's regroup a bit before moving forward. It's not clear that you and jmccr8, are referring to the same thing when you both use the phrase ancient oral tradition here:



"how do you determine that this really IS an ancient oral tradition (Kenemet)  

"Where and how do you expect to be able to verify this ancient oral tradition without being able to definitively identify the people involved first"" ( jmccr8)

... and it's not clear what each of you are referring to when you use the phrase in response to my posts. 

I'd appreciate it if you would both take a moment to clarify specifically what you referred to when you referred to "this / ancient oral tradition" in your comments I posted above ... the 18k oral tradition I referred to in one of my posts? the pre-Christian ascendency nature based oral tradition I referred to? A possible secret oral transmission tradition that may or may not be a component of Freemasonry? 

Once this is clarified, I'll respond to your recent post, Kenemet.

You gotta be kidding with this one ! 

You yourself refused to answer the question when I asked whether you were  talking about Freemasonry specifically, or  initiatory societies in general through time .  Now YOU demand the clarity you refused to give ? 

There is no secret and oral transmission tradition in Freemasonry ... this is a crock ... and  we all know the silly comeback -   no one knows about it because its a secret .     

Edited May 9, 2017 by back to earth

[back to earth]

1 hour ago, No Solid Ground said:

Asking for clarification of meaning is a normal and essential part of any ongoing dialogue that has many moving parts. Nuance and specificity, dangerously lacking in modern discourse, is important and minimizes confusion. 

 

Like you have cleared up here ?

Edited May 9, 2017 by back to earth

[jmccr8]

Hmm let'st see ancient oral tradition, well first off it would be something that is not hidden in paintings nor would it be hidden in coded manuscript because then they are recorded in a fashion and would no longer be considered oral. So I would tend to think that they are maintained orally by people that have the function of speech. What you haven't proposed for consideration is Who When Where so until this is a known I am left waiting for you to clarify the meaning you intend it to be taken in

I hope that clears up the confusion for you.

jmccr8

[back to earth]

Also, it seems to have been suggested, within this labyrinth ,    that a symbolic language may exist.   There COULD  be a case for this in that throughout time, certain symbols have represented certain ideas ; in Freemasonry, hermetics, alchemy, etc . And they do make up some sort of body of knowledge.

However,  this cant be applied to Freemasonry    as symbol interpretation is part of the Masonic initiation rite  script  ...  so that is non oral transference of info as well . 

 

Eg,;  "  I now present to you the working tools of a Fellow Craft Freemason; they are the Square, Level and Plumb Rule - indicates working tools as he names them - The Square is to try, and adjust rectangular corners of buildings, and assist in bringing rude matter into due form; the Level to lay levels and prove horizontals; the Plumb Rule to try and adjust uprights while fixing them on their proper bases. But as we are not all operative Masons, but rather free and accepted, or speculative, we apply these tools to our morals. In this sense, the Square teaches morality, the Level equality and the Plumb Rule justness and uprightness of life and actions. Thus by square conduct, level steps, and upright intentions we hope to ascend to those immortal mansions whence all goodness emanates.

[jaylemurph]

...just to make this plain:

JM, BtE, Kenemet and I -- that's four separate people -- have *all* asked specific questions which you have consistently dodged, either by flat-out ignoring the questions (specifically, I ended a recent post with nearly a half-dozen), making us go through this transparent, sophomoric routine where you smile dumbly and ask us when you ever said such things, or asking your own questions (which were answered in the posts you chose to ignore).

--Jaylemurph 

[Dhurfjooydig]

2 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hmm let'st see ancient oral tradition, well first off it would be something that is not hidden in paintings nor would it be hidden in coded manuscript because then they are recorded in a fashion and would no longer be considered oral. So I would tend to think that they are maintained orally by people that have the function of speech. What you haven't proposed for consideration is Who When Where so until this is a known I am left waiting for you to clarify the meaning you intend it to be taken in

I hope that clears up the confusion for you.

jmccr8

I'll ask my question again ...

In post 132 you asked:

"Where and how do you expect to be able to verify this ancient oral tradition"

In post 136 Kenemet asked:

"how do you determine that this really IS an ancient oral tradition"

I'm asking you both to identify which permutation of ancient oral tradition you are referring to from this list of three that have been discussed throughout this thread and recently:

- the 18k oral tradition I referred to in one of my posts? 

- the pre-Christian ascendency nature based oral tradition I referred to?

- A possible secret oral transmission tradition that may or may not be a component of Freemasonry? 

Without knowing this context, your (and Kenemet's) question can't be answered. Thanks.