Ancient Egyptians: Nicotine and Cocaine?

[Unusual Tournament]

Did Ancient Egyptians Trade Nicotine and Cocaine With the New World?

German scientist Dr Svetla Balabanova was studying the mummified remains of Lady Henut Taui, a member of the ruling class, when she made a surprising discovery – the mummy contained traces of nicotine and cocaine . Disbelief in the findings led to alternative hypotheses, for example, that the tests were contaminated or the mummies were fakes, but these ideas were disproved and the mummy and the test results were found to be authentic.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/did-ancient-egyptians-trade-nicotine-and-cocaine-new-world-001025

Edited May 21, 2017 by Captain Risky

[back to earth]

Nope !   

First off that article postulates a  trip along a coast line = crossing the Atlantic.

Then a claim of AE artifacts found in America from early last century ... BUT  

"Further evidence of an Egyptian journey to the Americas comes from an intriguing but unverified discovery in the Marble Region of the Grand Canyon. According to the Arizona Gazette, on 5 ^th April, 1909, two Smithsonian-funded explorers found a variety of Egyptian-like artefacts including tablets with hieroglyphics inside caves. However, the Smithsonian Institute has no current records of the finding. "

 Then this nice little summary :    "   Such a discovery would have offered hard evidence of an Egyptian journey to Americas but perhaps it is just too inconvenient to rewrite the history books and alter long-held traditions such as the Columbus Day celebrations . "

Ohhh come on now  !     

 and  where is the  evidence there that debunks cross- contamination ?    Some non-existant artifacts in America  ?   

 

Edited May 21, 2017 by back to earth

[+and-then]

Cross-contamination, almost certainly.  Besides, the Egyptians knew BEER... the universal, social solvent 

[Unusual Tournament]

20 minutes ago, and then said:

Cross-contamination, almost certainly.  Besides, the Egyptians knew BEER... the universal, social solvent 

I don't know about that... yes it does seem improbable that mummies in Egypt would have cocaine and nicotine in their tissue BUT saying outright that it "almost certainly" is, cross contamination is just leaning on baseless assumptions. An interesting rebuke from Colorado State University.

      The study was done as part of an ongoing program of investigating the use of hallucinogenic substances in ancient societies.  The authors themselves were quite surprised by the findings (Discovery, 1997) but stood y their results despite being the major focus of criticism in the following volume of aturwissenschaften.  Of the nine mummies evaluated, all showed signs of cocaine and hashish Tetrahydrocannabinol), whereas all but one sampled positive for nicotine.  It is interesting too that the concentrations of the compounds suggest uses other than that of abuse.  (For example, modern drug addicts often have concentrations of cocaine and nicotine in their hair 75 and 20 times higher respectively than that found in the mummy hair samples.) It is even possible that the quantities found may be high due to concentration in body tissues through time.

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/ethnic/mummy.htm

[Unusual Tournament]

51 minutes ago, back to earth said:

Nope !   

First off that article postulates a  trip along a coast line = crossing the Atlantic.

Then a claim of AE artifacts found in America from early last century ... BUT  

"Further evidence of an Egyptian journey to the Americas comes from an intriguing but unverified discovery in the Marble Region of the Grand Canyon. According to the Arizona Gazette, on 5 ^th April, 1909, two Smithsonian-funded explorers found a variety of Egyptian-like artefacts including tablets with hieroglyphics inside caves. However, the Smithsonian Institute has no current records of the finding. "

 Then this nice little summary :    "   Such a discovery would have offered hard evidence of an Egyptian journey to Americas but perhaps it is just too inconvenient to rewrite the history books and alter long-held traditions such as the Columbus Day celebrations . "

Ohhh come on now  !     

 and  where is the  evidence there that debunks cross- contamination ?    Some non-existant artifacts in America  ?   

 

Bolded: http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/ethnic/mummy.htm

[Unusual Tournament]

One of the mummies with cocaine and nicotine is or rather was Henut Taui. Hen Taui was a priestess. It stands to reason that if anyone was using an expensive and not so common drug it would be someone using it for spiritual and medicinal purposes. 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henut_Taui

[back to earth]

" there is no African coca bush. But there is atropa belladonnaand other tropane alkaloidsbearing plants which are well known for their pharmacological effects on the body. 

The link I would like to point out is tropane. This chemical ring is the active ingredient that creates the drug effect of coca, belladonna, mandrake, and datura. 

I posit that after 3000 years, the deterioration of processed plant product has degenerated into an unidentifiable extract with tropane alkaloids, and the residue discovered in hair from mummies is simply metabolized belladonna, as the end product in tropane which is present in both coca and belladonna. Modern blood tests search for metabolites of coca, but with no liquid blood, the only thing to check for are deposits of tropane alkaloids "

 

 Balabanova's evidence isn't thought to be hoaxed, but it's highly anomalous and doubts remain about contamination of the samples. A few people have misrepresented the results and extrapolated way beyond anything reasonable. 

One of the doubts was that chemical compounds, similar to coke, were created by decomposition over the centuries. It's hard to replicate such a process to falsify the results nevertheless your OP could be on the right track? 

On the other hand, it could be a wild goose chase as subsequent analysis of mummies taken directly from mummies in situ have failed to find anything similar. The Balabanova samples are the only incidences of cocaine. "

 

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread706499/pg2

 

 

[back to earth]

20 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

One of the mummies with cocaine and nicotine is or rather was Henut Taui. Hen Taui was a priestess. It stands to reason that if anyone was using an expensive and not so common drug it would be someone using it for spiritual and medicinal purposes. 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henut_Taui

After the discovery of her tomb, her mummy became a property of the king of Bavaria (likely Ludwig I),

I am sure King Ludwig made sure the sample was not contaminated  !    

So, lets see what Risky's   link actually says, shall we ?    ( Does he even read them ? ! )  ;

 

" Nevertheless, two successive analysis on other groups of Egyptian mummies and human remains, failed to fully reproduce Balabanova's results, showing in fact positive results only for nicotine.

After these experiments, even assuming that cocaine was actually found on mummies, it is likely that this could be a contamination occurred after the discovery. The same argument can be applied to nicotine but, in addition, various plants other than tobacco are a source of nicotine and two of these, Withania somnifera and Apium graveolens, were known and used by ancient Egyptians. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henut_Taui

Thanks for linking to proof that debunks what you are inferring           

[Unusual Tournament]

11 minutes ago, back to earth said:

" there is no African coca bush. But there is atropa belladonnaand other tropane alkaloidsbearing plants which are well known for their pharmacological effects on the body. 

The link I would like to point out is tropane. This chemical ring is the active ingredient that creates the drug effect of coca, belladonna, mandrake, and datura. 

I posit that after 3000 years, the deterioration of processed plant product has degenerated into an unidentifiable extract with tropane alkaloids, and the residue discovered in hair from mummies is simply metabolized belladonna, as the end product in tropane which is present in both coca and belladonna. Modern blood tests search for metabolites of coca, but with no liquid blood, the only thing to check for are deposits of tropane alkaloids "

 

 Balabanova's evidence isn't thought to be hoaxed, but it's highly anomalous and doubts remain about contamination of the samples. A few people have misrepresented the results and extrapolated way beyond anything reasonable. 

One of the doubts was that chemical compounds, similar to coke, were created by decomposition over the centuries. It's hard to replicate such a process to falsify the results nevertheless your OP could be on the right track? 

On the other hand, it could be a wild goose chase as subsequent analysis of mummies taken directly from mummies in situ have failed to find anything similar. The Balabanova samples are the only incidences of cocaine. "

 

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread706499/pg2

 

 

I'd like you to post a link reaffirming your claims that cocaine and the nightshade plant have identical and interchangeable chemical markers. Svetlana was a toxicologist so you have a big task ahead of you proving that she was remiss in her job and that she has confused the nightshade plant with cocaine and nicotine.

BTW... above secret? LOL...  

[Unusual Tournament]

10 minutes ago, back to earth said:

After the discovery of her tomb, her mummy became a property of the king of Bavaria (likely Ludwig I),

I am sure King Ludwig made sure the sample was not contaminated  !    

So, lets see what Risky's   link actually says, shall we ?    ( Does he even read them ? ! )  ;

 

" Nevertheless, two successive analysis on other groups of Egyptian mummies and human remains, failed to fully reproduce Balabanova's results, showing in fact positive results only for nicotine.

After these experiments, even assuming that cocaine was actually found on mummies, it is likely that this could be a contamination occurred after the discovery. The same argument can be applied to nicotine but, in addition, various plants other than tobacco are a source of nicotine and two of these, Withania somnifera and Apium graveolens, were known and used by ancient Egyptians. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henut_Taui

Thanks for linking to proof that debunks what you are inferring           

More assumptions do not do your argument any good. The mummy of Rameses also had tobacco leaf traces in his stomach.  

The quote you use makes no sense. Tests on other mummies failed to produce the same results? So how is this a victory? If anything it would prove Svetlana's tests. I think who ever updated the wiki page made a serious error. I know i originally put up the link BUT i did so for background on the high priestess and not on some baseless and inarticulate assumption by an unprofessional. 

[cormac mac airt]

Much of this information came from an article apparently no longer at the Hall of Ma'at.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread357764/pg2#pid4385346

cormac

[back to earth]

55 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

I'd like you to post a link reaffirming your claims that cocaine and the nightshade plant have identical and interchangeable chemical markers.

I am sure you would like that .    Except I never made that claim  in the first place .

55 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

 

Svetlana was a toxicologist so you have a big task ahead of you proving that she was remiss in her job and that she has confused the nightshade plant with cocaine and nicotine.

yeah sure Risky ... I shall just duck out the shed and set up my toxicologist lab ( after I get my degree )  to prove a claim  that I never made that you attribute to me . 

 

I wonder what it is  YOU are trying to claim here ....   hmmmmmmmm ???? 

 

 

[kmt_sesh]

This is a well-known story in fringe circles. I'm not saying the scientist in question is a fringie because she was working with what she had—museum specimens. As someone who works around our Egyptian mummies all the time at the Field Museum, I can't tell you how many times they've been handled and poked and prodded by Westerners over the last 120 years.

The most advanced scientific study of mummies in the world is conducted by Manchester University in northern England. They've done remarkable work (right down to careful genetic studies). Some of their researchers were interested in the German scientist's study, and understandably skeptical. They conducted such analysis of Egyptian mummies that had been unearthed in Egypt and had not left the country. Not surprisingly, they could not arrive at the same conclusions.

Contamination is the most likely culprit, and clearly more logical. Also at play, as explained in several papers I've read, is the fact that certain plants of the Mediterranean world are known to mimic things like tobacco and marijuana and cocaine (BTE covered this in more detail). That mummies in museums might reveal cocaine and other traces is not surprising. But in the real world of current science it's understood that Balabanova's finding do not mean such Western World substances existed in ancient North Africa. It must also be emphatically stressed that to this day, there is no legitimate, tangible evidence that people from pharaonic Egypt ever visited America. Nor would they have been interested in doing so, anyway.

Speaking of Manchester, I have to recommend their wonderful book Egyptian Mummies and Modern Science (Rosalie David, 2014).

Cormac mentioned an article once at the Hall of Maat. I just discovered for myself that it no longer seems to be there. Drat! It was a terrific article called "The Stoned Age," and it goes a long way to dispelling questionable science and wild speculations. If any of you can find it, I recommend reading it.

[Unusual Tournament]

There was obviously a trade route between the America's and the middle sea at some point that allowed such products to travel. Maybe not freely and often but enough to leave some anomalies such as this one. 

[kartikg]

How does cross contamination get inside the tissues of mummies? 

[Unusual Tournament]

4 minutes ago, kartikg said:

How does cross contamination get inside the tissues of mummies? 

It doesn't mate. I have provided a rebuttal from the University of Colorado that pretty much calls into questions such asinine beliefs. 

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/ethnic/mummy.htm

[kmt_sesh]

14 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

There was obviously a trade route between the America's and the middle sea at some point that allowed such products to travel. Maybe not freely and often but enough to leave some anomalies such as this one. 

By Ottoman times, perhaps. Not in ancient times, however. The sum total of real evidence confirms no such cross-cultural interaction occurred when the pharaohs ruled Egypt.

Think of it this way. You seem to be basing this on a single scientist's analysis of mummies found long before her time and handled by countless Westerners long before her birth. This isn't how sound investigative conclusions are reached. It's also not considered credible by the modern scientific community. You mentioned Ramesses II, for example. This king died in 1212 BCE. His mummy has been extensively studied by all manner of specialists, including Egyptians, French, English, and Americans. He happens to be one the most interesting kings to me personally and I've spent years reading and studying the reports on his mummy's analyses. I've never come across the findings of tobacco by the specialists, except for the questionable report of Michele Lascot. It must further be remembered that the mummy of Ramesses II was found in TT320 in 1881. He was handled inside and out by countless Westerners (including Maspero, who conducted the first hasty unwrapping). If tobacco findings are authentic for this royal mummy, contamination is the obvious reason. The Egyptians of the thirteenth century BCE certainly never traveled to the Western Hemisphere. That isn't even logical.

[kmt_sesh]

10 minutes ago, kartikg said:

How does cross contamination get inside the tissues of mummies? 

It happens quite easily, which is one reason genetic testing of Egyptian mummies can be so damn difficult. The mummies are hardly sealed tight. Their bodies are often riddled with holes and fissures externally and internally. Most any contaminant introduced at the surface can easily work its way down into the tissues. But as I wrote in my previous post, the professional medical analyses I've read of Ramesses II and other mummies don't tend to show wild speculations and questionable conclusions. However, you do tend to see such things on half-baked websites.

[kmt_sesh]

4 hours ago, back to earth said:

Which 'one',  what 'middle sea'   and what 'anomalies ' ?   

Oops, I thought he had written "middle east." I'm reading too fast, I guess. I'd wager he meant "middle east" because what woudl "middle sea" mean?

But you know what "anomalies" are meant. It's those you find all over the internet because everything that creeps into the internet must be authentic.

Right?

[Unusual Tournament]

10 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

By Ottoman times, perhaps. Not in ancient times, however. The sum total of real evidence confirms no such cross-cultural interaction occurred when the pharaohs ruled Egypt.

Think of it this way. You seem to be basing this on a single scientist's analysis of mummies found long before her time and handled by countless Westerners long before her birth. This isn't how sound investigative conclusions are reached. It's also not considered credible by the modern scientific community. You mentioned Ramesses II, for example. This king died in 1212 BCE. His mummy has been extensively studied by all manner of specialists, including Egyptians, French, English, and Americans. He happens to be one the most interesting kings to me personally and I've spent years reading and studying the reports on his mummy's analyses. I've never come across the findings of tobacco by the specialists, except for the questionable report of Michele Lascot. It must further be remembered that the mummy of Ramesses II was found in TT320 in 1881. He was handled inside and out by countless Westerners (including Maspero, who conducted the first hasty unwrapping). If tobacco findings are authentic for this royal mummy, contamination is the obvious reason. The Egyptians of the thirteenth century BCE certainly never traveled to the Western Hemisphere. That isn't even logical.

Bolded: No i don't believe that. Trade routes are often vast and interconnecting. There is absolutely no reason why trade didn't pass through many hands. Egyptians trading with Minoan's trading with Spanish traders trading with African etc etc. There just does not need to be a direct trade route between South America and Egypt. Thats a fallacy.  

Bolded Red: I have already provided a link from the UoC that you won't comment on. I will provide a quote from it.

 “Since the initial work of Balabanova et. al., other studies have revealed the same drugs (cocaine, nicotine, and hashish) in Egyptian mummies, confirming the original results.   Nerlich et. al. (1995), in a study evaluating the tissue pathology of an Egyptian mummy dating from approximately 950 B.C., found the compounds in several of the mummy's organs.   They found the highest amounts of nicotine and cocaine in the mummy's stomach, and the hashish traces primarily in the lungs.   These findings were again identified using both radio immunoassay and GSMS techniques.   Very similar results were again found in yet another study by Parsche and Nerlich (1995).   Again, the findings were obtained using the immunological and chromatographic techniques. “

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/ethnic/mummy.htm

[back to earth]

14 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

It happens quite easily, which is one reason genetic testing of Egyptian mummies can be so damn difficult. The mummies are hardly sealed tight. Their bodies are often riddled with holes and fissures externally and internally. Most any contaminant introduced at the surface can easily work its way down into the tissues. But as I wrote in my previous post, the professional medical analyses I've read of Ramesses II and other mummies don't tend to show wild speculations and questionable conclusions. However, you do tend to see such things on half-baked websites.

< bows to mummy expert >

I read that they claimed  ' tobacco beetles '  were also present  and that 'proved' they had tobacco .

 

What the giveaway here is ... it is used as 'evidence'  of trade and a trade route  from one side of the world to the other   .... such is required for these ancient world wide hidden civilisation buffs .

Even if the Egyptians somehow DID get  seeds or products from Americas , it could have been a long extension of trade,  country to country or a lone boat arriving . manned or not  with supplies ... heck, I can  up come with heaps of scenarios . 

So this 'trade route' thing  needs to be established as it is  central issue to the ancient lost civilisation mob .  

Now, watch them play their  game  ... as usual . 

[jmccr8]

30 minutes ago, kartikg said:

How does cross contamination get inside the tissues of mummies? 

A large amount of money is exchanged on a daily basis with trace elements of cocaine every day and you ask how, gee whiz lets think about contamination for a minute. For obvious reasons it didn't a happen in the past.

jmccr8

[Unusual Tournament]

9 minutes ago, kmt_sesh said:

Oops, I thought he had written "middle east." I'm reading too fast, I guess. I'd wager he meant "middle east" because what woudl "middle sea" mean?

But you know what "anomalies" are meant. It's those you find all over the internet because everything that creeps into the internet must be authentic.

Right?

I meant middle sea. What is wrong with that? Egypt at the time was mostly trading with those peoples around the med. 

[back to earth]

12 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

I meant middle sea. What is wrong with that? Egypt at the time was mostly trading with those peoples around the med. 

 What is the  'med'  ? 

[Tatetopa]

Tobacco and cocoa grow in very different regions.  The indigenous peoples that used them, tobacco for vision like properties and cocoa leaves for physical stimulation did not grow them in large quantities. Until Europeans arrived and began growing tobacco on plantations for use as a pleasurable smoking substance , it was not a "commodity" for trading.  There were no drug middlemen who could supply visiting sailors with both substances conveniently.  That is not a refutation of your claim, but the trading route idea gets to be pretty complex and unwieldy. quickly.